The character advancement and available skills thread

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The character advancement and available skills thread

I thought I'd create this condensed thread for us to talk about which skills should be available and how we think they could be implemented (use your wild imagination) and also how to talk about methods in which to advance our character through EXP or character points awarded to the player. I'd also like to allow people to just have fun with this thread talking about how to, as an example, implement the skills that we pretty much know are confirmed not to be in the video game, like geology. We can also talk about current and old trends in how to do skills, character progression and the like in CRPGs.

To start the conversation I'd like to ask a double question. What should grant the player character EXP and should all experience be the same? Let me expand: Should EXP be granted for killing enemies, completing quests, learning about the world through exposition granted in conversations or in-game documents, by doing other tasks like cracking safes, datafortresses, disarming traps, healing wounds...? For all of them or just some of those? And should the experience earned from all of those tasks go to the same pool so that we can use it to improve whatever we want or just be locked to the same kind of skill or stat that we are honing? In PnP RPGs, GMs are frequently encouraged to enforce a rule by which players can only advance the stats or skills that they can justify they have been using (e.g. a mage that hasn't been doing much exercise can't justify using points to improve his strength), in Fable we got three different kinds of experience: if I recall correcly there was Red strength for warrior skills, Blue one for mage skills and Yellow for rogue/archer skills.

I'm also going to give my own ideas for how to implement skills. I'm going to start with the Attractiveness skills: Personal Grooming and Wardrobe and Style, which I think wouldn't be too difficult to implement: Both of them could boost or have us benefit for the whole bonus from wearing the right clothes and style, or maximising their effect. The first one would work more for things like seduction: it's our own attractiveness, plus clothes that look sexy, plus knowing how to wear them (we benefit from the whole bonus of those clothes)... or maybe we know which ones match for a good combo when buying them (kinda how like sets of armor in hack & slash give extra bonuses when we are wearing the whole set). W&S could be like the infiltration version of the same thing: it could make our "undetected" or "undercover" gauge bigger when wearing a uniform of any given faction.
 
To start the conversation I'd like to ask a double question. What should grant the player character EXP and should all experience be the same? Let me expand: Should EXP be granted for killing enemies, completing quests, learning about the world through exposition granted in conversations or in-game documents, by doing other tasks like cracking safes, datafortresses, disarming traps, healing wounds...? For all of them or just some of those? And should the experience earned from all of those tasks go to the same pool so that we can use it to improve whatever we want or just be locked to the same kind of skill or stat that we are honing? In PnP RPGs, GMs are frequently encouraged to enforce a rule by which players can only advance the stats or skills that they can justify they have been using (e.g. a mage that hasn't been doing much exercise can't justify using points to improve his strength), in Fable we got three different kinds of experience: if I recall correcly there was Red strength for warrior skills, Blue one for mage skills and Yellow for rogue/archer skills.

I've love to see just about anything you can do reward some contextual EXP. If I manage to pick a lock, I want relevant EXP.
Skyrim and now Fallout 4 keep skimming around this with their perks. I don't want to be training my character how to build something just so I can level up / gain points I then spend somewhere completely unrelated, like how to stab someone better.

That just feels so uninvolved and shallow. I want to see the game focus more on character experience rather than player experience. The more "Gamey" the game feels, the worse off it tends to feel. Having a bunch of perk trees you throw points at might look like good game design, but it hurts the feeling of growing and cultivating a character in the world we're exploring.

I'm also going to give my own ideas for how to implement skills. I'm going to start with the Attractiveness skills: Personal Grooming and Wardrobe and Style, which I think wouldn't be too difficult to implement: Both of them could boost or have us benefit for the whole bonus from wearing the right clothes and style, or maximising their effect. The first one would work more for things like seduction: it's our own attractiveness, plus clothes that look sexy, plus knowing how to wear them (we benefit from the whole bonus of those clothes)... or maybe we know which ones match for a good combo when buying them (kinda how like sets of armor in hack & slash give extra bonuses when we are wearing the whole set). W&S could be like the infiltration version of the same thing: it could make our "undetected" or "undercover" gauge bigger when wearing a uniform of any given faction.

I just want to say, I would absolutely adore an actual system revolving around grooming/style and wardrobe functionality. I always love to find new outfits and personalize my characters but it's often an afterthought. And for heavens sake, why is it so hard for a character to just do their own hair? Put on some makeup? It takes two seconds and I could have a drastically different hairdo than a minute ago. To be able to style your own hair in game (At least switching styles, doesn't have to be too crazy) and similar things would be so fun for me.
The skills could have an impact on how well put together the actual visuals look and how easy or not it is to apply things. Seeing informational text appear as you grow in your skills suggesting what things go well with other things for certain effects or environments (Situational, such as trying to fit in to events/outings)....


But hey, probably not something most game devs would care to implement. But since it's a singleplayer game and not an MMO trying to nickel and dime the ever-loving daylights out of you for every customization option, I'd love to see freedom in how your character looks and when & where you can adjust your appearance.

Being able to tackle the game with a more social and diplomatic angle than a run and gun would be such a fresh experience.
 
I've love to see just about anything you can do reward some contextual EXP. If I manage to pick a lock, I want relevant EXP.
Skyrim and now Fallout 4 keep skimming around this with their perks. I don't want to be training my character how to build something just so I can level up / gain points I then spend somewhere completely unrelated, like how to stab someone better.

skyrim does do something kind of like that, though it probably could have been implemented better. you level distinct skills by using them, you can't make them a lot better by not focusing on them. sure xp is global, but there definitely is a "local" system.
 
Skills and stats are always the stupidest bit of any RPG, I mean how do you change your charisma? you can't improve your intelligence only your education, which takes significantly longer than you will be spending in game.

I am pretty sure they won't try to tie it in to the game world at all, which is at least a small mercy.
 
i like the way you get xp in skyrim, the more you use a certain ability, the more xp you get for that specific ability, and at the same time, whe the character levels up, it gives xp points to spend in any other ability or increase charisma, perception, strength, speed or whatever,

the xp sistem in the witcher games are also a very good, for each new level the character gets 3 (or more) points to spend in abilites
 
What a good post. I respect your thoughts. You are a fine person.

Why don't we start the orgy fucking already!?


Skills and stats are always the stupidest bit of any RPG, I mean how do you change your charisma? you can't improve your intelligence only your education, which takes significantly longer than you will be spending in game.

I am pretty sure they won't try to tie it in to the game world at all, which is at least a small mercy.

Intelligence for me is the hardest one to wrap my head around about how you improve it... I get how you can improve your wisdom, because I tend to define the former as "raw processing power" and "potential" while the second one is more of a "collection of knowledge and experience"... but, hey, maybe when you improve your INT it's like you tap onto that potential: you train your brain so that you use a higher percentage like all those brain training programs claim you can do. But, hey, everyone has their own definition of intelligence.

Charisma... well, people can hone their social skills, and charisma is that, the social skill. I know there are lots of definitions of charisma, like the political one which alone can't ensure popularity to say political or religious leaders... but it's an aid.

People can even improve their own attractiveness and I don't mean to use something as shallow Ugly Betty as an example (unless I'm doing that by mentioning it)... but by showing confidence, having a good posture and... yeah, with personal grooming to enhance the effect. If we got the ATTR stat... which I kinda doubt because I think it's not in Fuzion but instead has been changed for a perk... it shouldn't define our features and gradually makes us go from Beast to Beauty as we level it up... but it could be kinda cute if we had something very minor like the the posture of our character or a slightly healthier tint in our complexion change with ATTR. Now that I remember, the last time I talked about this very same issue I embedded these fantastically illustrative gifs:




I can't help but do it again... it's like my own life is on a loop... like... I AM THE GIF!
 
To start the conversation I'd like to ask a double question. What should grant the player character EXP and should all experience be the same?.

Most definitely no XP for killing stuff, you already get a "reward" for that via loot or being able to proceed with whatever you are otherwise doing.

Just shutting down kill-farming for level will do wonders for making the game a "non shooter".

I've love to see just about anything you can do reward some contextual EXP. If I manage to pick a lock, I want relevant EXP. Skyrim and now Fallout 4 keep skimming around this with their perks. I don't want to be training my character how to build something just so I can level up / gain points I then spend somewhere completely unrelated, like how to stab someone better.

That just feels so uninvolved and shallow. I want to see the game focus more on character experience rather than player experience. The more "Gamey" the game feels, the worse off it tends to feel. Having a bunch of perk trees you throw points at might look like good game design, but it hurts the feeling of growing and cultivating a character in the world we're exploring.

Couldn't agree more.
But ...
Contextual XP (i.e. you get points in lockpicking ONLY for picking locks) means the game has to be designed from the ground up with low-level opportunities for every skill in the game. Doable ... but it would be a nightmare.

If you don't have a live GM that can adjust situations (when appropriate) to suit the characters (vice players) ability in their skills the only practical choice is a general XP pool.

Skills and stats are always the stupidest bit of any RPG, I mean how do you change your charisma? you can't improve your intelligence only your education, which takes significantly longer than you will be spending in game.

One of the inherent pitfalls of any game that allows for improvement of basic character stats.
So either you don't allow it or you just chalk it up to the fact that it is a game not a reality simulator.

This of course applies to ALL skills not just character stats. There's no way anyone is going to go from being a hopeless shot to an Olympic level marksman in a few weeks/months.
 
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Hey, I made a thread just like this in some ancient past. It got something like 10 responses. Let's hope this carries on for longer.

I'd like there to be a layered system where the primary means to increase skills is IP rewards through quests and a complementary system that rewards practical skilluse but is adjusted so that you can not replace the former with the latter through grind.

If the skill levels cost x10 the IP (lvl 2 20 IP, lvl 3 30 IP ... lvl 10 100 IP -- different means to learn a completely new skill), you could allow practice to cover half the IP cost from one level to another (though adjusted so that it is not something that's given lightly) and then you need to cover up the remainder with quest rewards.

Or something along those lines.

I kinda liked how Wizardry 8 did its skill progression through both, investment and use.
 
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How i would like to be the XP distribution : (more or less)

Combat LVL : You earn killing enemies...Once you level up your combat skills will grant you more accuracy and combat skills.

General LVL : Earned completing quests...Only required for some equipments,missions and weapons.

Specialist LVL : Depending on the type of weapon you use, you will unlock skills for those type of weapons.


Ex : MachineGUN Req : Combat lvl 12, General lvl 15, Specialist bonus on heavy guns : reload speed and recoil reduced by 15%
 
Yeaaaah. I'm of two minds about this.

1. CP2020, the PnP game on which it is based, uses a skills-XP progression, awarded from a variety of sources, in terms of how well or poorly or significantly you used the skill. No, repeatedly using it won't generate much XP, ( we say IP) at all. Likewise, you can increase from studying, from a person or even virtual. I like this and you find the more important skills go up quite quickly, until they get to around 6 or so, then it slows a lot.

2. CRPG players won't really get this and will probably try to find some way to "game" the system, insisting they can play as they like, then complain the game is too easy, too fast. This is why we have Refs in PnP, to punish us for trying crap like that and then complaining. So, perhaps a more carefully-meted out quest reward system would work.

W3 was pretty close to great in terms of difficulty, but that was on Death March. Lower levels got easy fast for a lot of people. And even on DM, it got a weee bit easy around 25 or so.

Hardcore Ironman mode changes that game, of course. I'd love to see an innovative new take on difficulty and IP that would work well.
 
How i would like to be the XP distribution : (more or less)

Combat LVL : You earn killing enemies...Once you level up your combat skills will grant you more accuracy and combat skills.

General LVL : Earned completing quests...Only required for some equipments,missions and weapons.

Specialist LVL : Depending on the type of weapon you use, you will unlock skills for those type of weapons.


Ex : MachineGUN Req : Combat lvl 12, General lvl 15, Specialist bonus on heavy guns : reload speed and recoil reduced by 15%
I agree with this. Killing enemies and doing quests should be the main source, however using your speciality weapon! skills should give bonus xp/IP. If you make a gun specialist you should get rewarded for using your guns. If you decide to use a sword, then well, you still get xp but not as much.
 
my main hope is that skills and actual weapons will make you better, not the levels themselves. I hated how in the witcher 3 you flick a drowner and they fall over, then you travel a few kilometers south and a different drowner looks at you and you are instantly dead. that is until a certain time passes and with the same equipment and skills you suddenly kill him with ease.

You plan to bring a sword to a gunfight?
You're far braver then I'll ever be.

well she did relatively fine with two blades and she wasn't even using them :D
 
I think that experience points and skill points are not very efficient in a potentially multiplayer setting. The fact that a player can reach a max level is often quite hard to explain lore wise and nevermind about balance. Especially considering that unlike the Cyberpunk PNP i highly doubt there will be perma death. So what I think would be best would be to take a lesson from GTA 5. Money.

Taking jobs for money, spending money on cybernetics to level up, get cars (upgrade cars), buy hideouts and weapon caches. That already sounds like a solid game. Leave all the skills to player reflex skills. GTA 5 has many great lessons to give on that hybrid mmorpg/multiplayer model.

Stats would be determined by what you are wearing. Sexy clothing sets your appearance points to Sexy, or flags your character as sexy. Respectable Corp uniform gets you a Respectable tag. So NPC's will react accordingly.

Theres so many types of cybernetics that it would be a shame to narrow them to an arbitrary bonus like '+4 to hit'. Cyber legs that let you leap super high as opposed to running very fast. Cyber leg claws. Cant wear them all the same time you have to choose. Levelless at its finest. Even Diablo 3 did that.

I understand Cyberpunks PNP roots but frankly I think what we really want is Cyberpunk. Not PNP. Sorry if this reads odd but typing at work sure makes you type faster XD

tldr; Take a page for gta5 in a lesson for level less system. Use money instead of xp.
 
I understand Cyberpunks PNP roots but frankly I think what we really want is Cyberpunk. Not PNP.

Well that'd be a surefire way to turn me off this thing at least. Removing the PnP roots (and thus also a lions share of the RPG elements) would remove the experience I'm looking for. Just another scifi action adventure (in the vein of GTA 5 or Fallout 4 or what ever else) simply won't do as far as I'm concerned.
 
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