For me, the best moment in my Devil ending... So damn good
I really liked the themes of the game. It is (in my opinion) a rumination on consciousness, one's place in the world, and mortality / immortality ... with lots of thematic flavors involving class/corporate exploitation, and a cynical view of transhumanism. Quoting myself from a few other places:
Those are some pretty cool concepts for a video game to be exploring.
The original sin in the main plot is Saburo Arasaka wanting to essentially become immortal. That idea of "beating" death is literally his impulse the game is (in part) critiquing. The idea that when we try to play God and transcend mortality, it all goes awry. I think it's unlikely to be a coincidence that the one ending where V tries to survive at all cost by trusting Arasaka is - I think - by and large considered a less favorable ending for V. Acceptance of mortality is a healthy thing, even in video games. No matter what V does, her body can't live forever.
Making the player deal with that and still choose how to proceed knowing death (in some shape or form) is coming soon - that's very interesting to me. Not something that video games do a lot. Her death doesn't make the things V has done any less impactful. The protagonist doesn't have to survive for there to be meaning in the things they did and the story that's been told.
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It's more than that it's about the themes of the game. Yes it's part that life of an Edgerunner is inherently dangerous. However, more so it's:
(1) Obtaining every material thing you could want (glamour, sex, entertainment, mystery, neon lights, fashion, delicious synthetic food, easy money, adventure, weapons of all types, fame etc) is the allure that draws one into the city;
(2) Night City thrives makes this promise because those in power have realized they can exploit the masses by promising them whatever they want;
(3) So the powerful give the masses this, and in exchange they get a city where it's almost impossible for the most powerful to lose - here those with the power make the rules, a make the rules to benefit those with the power;
(4) One of the few benefits of this unregulated din of appealing to our every whim is that it has become a city of real innovations, meaning lots of progress in the way of cyberware, AI and etc;
(5) However, those enhancements haven't really made anyone's life better, people problems are all still there, and really if Cyberware has done anything, it's just amplified our foibles.
Said by me in another thread long before launch about the themes the game will explore:
By the time we get to 2077, MegaCorps manage every aspect of life from the top floors of their sky-scraping fortresses. The gangs rule the rest. The world of Cyberpunk 2077 presents a grim vision of the future. It's trying to say something about who has power and who doesn't, and why that is. In the world of Cyberpunk, it's the corporations in charge with everybody else scrounging to get by on the streets. It didn’t just happen overnight. It was the slow corruption of society, and now there’s a system to keep it in place. You have people that believe they should be the people at the top. The structures in place don’t allow true freedom, you’re just a slave of another kind. This world is a shining example of consumerism run rampant. No matter where you look, you’re pitched a product, an aspiration. Whether you’re riding the metro, brushing your teeth, or pissing in an alleyway, the glitter, vibrant color, and allure of it all sucks you in. Corporations are selling an unattainable dream and the masses are buying into it hook, line, and sinker. If you don’t think you’re one of the people that’s going to wind up on top, there is a seductive energy living on the streets still so rippling with texture and life.
There's also a cynical take on transhumanism. Technology did not liberate the people of Night City from their flesh, their foibles, or their failings. Tech advancement went hand in hand with the decay of society. Body augmentations invented to serve society simply multiplied the problems, and sometimes lead to mayhem on the streets. New inventions led to addictions, and poverty became an ever growing problem. Drugs, violence, and exclusion haven’t disappeared by 2077, as people stayed as they were for centuries – greedy, closed-minded and weak. The world is broken. Down here, where the streets are run by the drug-pushing gangs, tech hustlers, and illegal braindance slingers, is where decadence, sex and pop culture mix with violent crime, extreme poverty and the unattainable promise of the American Dream. It's this place were high tech and low life meet, that's the feel of Cyberpunk.
That's not a world where an Edgerunner who crossed a megacorp like Arasaka gets to make it away happily ever after. It's an unattainable promise after all.
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Regardless of V's choices, the It definitely has a story to tell. "Star" is realizing that the whole story the corporations are selling about the rat race and "becoming someone" is a lie being fed to the masses to keep the powerful wealthy. It's opting out of the rat race in exchange for a community and contentment. The "glory" ending sees V trying to continue to make it within that world, which shows grit, but seems unlikely to be successful in the long run for much more than raising some hell and making a name for oneself. The "devil" ending sees V trust the corporation - which does have the greatest chance at achieving some semblance of digitized immortality ... but at what cost ethically and metaphysically? The "Temperance" ending is somewhat like "Star," V again realizes that the allure is a lie, but in this one, gives her body to Johnny to do what he would with it and she opts out into Cyberspace with Alt. However that's a lonelier path than the Star by a wide margin.
Making the player deal with that and still choose how to proceed knowing death (in some shape or form) is coming soon - that's very interesting to me. Not something that video games do a lot. Her death doesn't make the things V has done any less impactful. The protagonist doesn't have to survive for there to be meaning in the things they did and the story that's been told.
________________________________________________________________________________
It's more than that it's about the themes of the game. Yes it's part that life of an Edgerunner is inherently dangerous. However, more so it's:
(1) Obtaining every material thing you could want (glamour, sex, entertainment, mystery, neon lights, fashion, delicious synthetic food, easy money, adventure, weapons of all types, fame etc) is the allure that draws one into the city;
(2) Night City thrives makes this promise because those in power have realized they can exploit the masses by promising them whatever they want;
(3) So the powerful give the masses this, and in exchange they get a city where it's almost impossible for the most powerful to lose - here those with the power make the rules, a make the rules to benefit those with the power;
(4) One of the few benefits of this unregulated din of appealing to our every whim is that it has become a city of real innovations, meaning lots of progress in the way of cyberware, AI and etc;
(5) However, those enhancements haven't really made anyone's life better, people problems are all still there, and really if Cyberware has done anything, it's just amplified our foibles.
Said by me in another thread long before launch about the themes the game will explore:
By the time we get to 2077, MegaCorps manage every aspect of life from the top floors of their sky-scraping fortresses. The gangs rule the rest. The world of Cyberpunk 2077 presents a grim vision of the future. It's trying to say something about who has power and who doesn't, and why that is. In the world of Cyberpunk, it's the corporations in charge with everybody else scrounging to get by on the streets. It didn’t just happen overnight. It was the slow corruption of society, and now there’s a system to keep it in place. You have people that believe they should be the people at the top. The structures in place don’t allow true freedom, you’re just a slave of another kind. This world is a shining example of consumerism run rampant. No matter where you look, you’re pitched a product, an aspiration. Whether you’re riding the metro, brushing your teeth, or pissing in an alleyway, the glitter, vibrant color, and allure of it all sucks you in. Corporations are selling an unattainable dream and the masses are buying into it hook, line, and sinker. If you don’t think you’re one of the people that’s going to wind up on top, there is a seductive energy living on the streets still so rippling with texture and life.
There's also a cynical take on transhumanism. Technology did not liberate the people of Night City from their flesh, their foibles, or their failings. Tech advancement went hand in hand with the decay of society. Body augmentations invented to serve society simply multiplied the problems, and sometimes lead to mayhem on the streets. New inventions led to addictions, and poverty became an ever growing problem. Drugs, violence, and exclusion haven’t disappeared by 2077, as people stayed as they were for centuries – greedy, closed-minded and weak. The world is broken. Down here, where the streets are run by the drug-pushing gangs, tech hustlers, and illegal braindance slingers, is where decadence, sex and pop culture mix with violent crime, extreme poverty and the unattainable promise of the American Dream. It's this place were high tech and low life meet, that's the feel of Cyberpunk.
That's not a world where an Edgerunner who crossed a megacorp like Arasaka gets to make it away happily ever after. It's an unattainable promise after all.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Regardless of V's choices, the It definitely has a story to tell. "Star" is realizing that the whole story the corporations are selling about the rat race and "becoming someone" is a lie being fed to the masses to keep the powerful wealthy. It's opting out of the rat race in exchange for a community and contentment. The "glory" ending sees V trying to continue to make it within that world, which shows grit, but seems unlikely to be successful in the long run for much more than raising some hell and making a name for oneself. The "devil" ending sees V trust the corporation - which does have the greatest chance at achieving some semblance of digitized immortality ... but at what cost ethically and metaphysically? The "Temperance" ending is somewhat like "Star," V again realizes that the allure is a lie, but in this one, gives her body to Johnny to do what he would with it and she opts out into Cyberspace with Alt. However that's a lonelier path than the Star by a wide margin.
Those are some pretty cool concepts for a video game to be exploring.
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This is interesting. I wonder if their exist an award for "Buggiest game fixed"?
Pretty cool, absolutely
For me, I think it's also pretty rare, maybe because it's pretty risky. Knowing that this is subtle and will probably not speak to everyone.
Was it interesting? Yes. It wasn't interesting because it actively explores those themes to me. I don't think the game actually did explore those themes in depth. It's interesting because it throws them out there via little references, events, etc. here and there and does so in a way where the player starts to explore them for themselves. The player then acquires incentives to think about it on their own. Draw their own conclusions and decide what it means to them. Ponder what it could mean.
An example would be the concept of a soul, consciousness, etc. Contrary to claims here I don't think the game really explores any of that in detail. Instead it makes subtle references to those topics. Instead players end up exploring those topics for themselves. If it has any brilliance in this realm that'd be it. The fact players explored those themes on their own time, reached interpretations, thought those interpretations were a result of what the game was saying or trying to say and didn't even realize it was actually a result of their own exploration.
In terms of "getting it right", yeah, I'd say they did a good job there. Especially given how views in many of those areas are typically quite strong. It's quite clever to orchestrate a way to bring those topics up, avoid any type of conflict when there is a lot of potential to create it, but also allow a player to think about it on their own terms.
The only complaint I have with it, and perhaps it's a little nitpicky, is the thought they may have lost sight of it a bit at the end of the game. For 99% of the game themes are presented and the interpretation of what it's supposed to or could mean was largely left blank. Choosing to explore and think about it or not was up to the player. For that last 1% it's as if those blanks suddenly began getting populated with values. I think they could and should have just kept going with it.
An example would be the concept of a soul, consciousness, etc. Contrary to claims here I don't think the game really explores any of that in detail. Instead it makes subtle references to those topics. Instead players end up exploring those topics for themselves. If it has any brilliance in this realm that'd be it. The fact players explored those themes on their own time, reached interpretations, thought those interpretations were a result of what the game was saying or trying to say and didn't even realize it was actually a result of their own exploration.
In terms of "getting it right", yeah, I'd say they did a good job there. Especially given how views in many of those areas are typically quite strong. It's quite clever to orchestrate a way to bring those topics up, avoid any type of conflict when there is a lot of potential to create it, but also allow a player to think about it on their own terms.
The only complaint I have with it, and perhaps it's a little nitpicky, is the thought they may have lost sight of it a bit at the end of the game. For 99% of the game themes are presented and the interpretation of what it's supposed to or could mean was largely left blank. Choosing to explore and think about it or not was up to the player. For that last 1% it's as if those blanks suddenly began getting populated with values. I think they could and should have just kept going with it.
*Spoiler* Very true. I really like Lizzy Wizzy Violence quest and how dark the tone went for her but the themes weren't so deeply explored, just enough to make it haunting yet keep the plot moving.
I would have loved it to be a bit longer, to perhaps see her turn more slowly and subtly, it felt a little abrupt to me.
@Restlessdingo32
I think the game sets up the stage pretty well for that pondering to happen.
Everything from the first person perspective to the idea of transcendence/immortality, to death and futility, is deliberate and ultimately leads to such questions and inner thoughts.
I don't think it's as subtle as you might think, I believe it's been interwoven into absolutely everything in the game, one actively needs to turn off their brains to not be affected by any of it by the end.
I feel that it's the overall gameplay design choices that let the whole aspect down, it's too rudimentary - too ad hoc - and the technical issues at large really let this whole aspect down.
People are much more likely to focus on the bad aspects whilst being metaphorically smacked in the face with them rather than ponder their own existence as V in the nihilistic world of Night City.
It's a real shame, as such themes and narrative arcs require so much tact to land with the average crowd because as soon as the seams show people lose focus and subsequently lose interest.
Good example :
First TV show in the game, in the elevator after "The Rescue". Religion vs Pro-Cyberware about the "Relic".
Easy to skip, but it announces the color rather well (if it is said in English...)
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Why does the game not tackle these subjects in depth and only offer clues for thought... There are no real answers, everyone is free to form their idea and opinion about that.
To quote a pretty famous expression :
"The truth is elsewhere..."
Sorry, I didn't believe that I can place it one day...(in french version).
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although I am not a Buddhist, I received an education in Japan as such; for meditation on Zen, Infinite Zen.
the Master asked me if I knew the difference between good and bad {a spirit/soul with my body}. I did not know what to answer, too young to answer a question that seemed insurmountable to me.
then the Master leaned over me and said to me; |you know when you do bad and when you do good, then you fight your mind to lie to yourself and to others|
notice; in Japanese language it is powerful.
the Master asked me if I knew the difference between good and bad {a spirit/soul with my body}. I did not know what to answer, too young to answer a question that seemed insurmountable to me.
then the Master leaned over me and said to me; |you know when you do bad and when you do good, then you fight your mind to lie to yourself and to others|
notice; in Japanese language it is powerful.
Exactly. And that's the beauty of it. You are not "burdened" with it in a video game. All the controversial(?) topics are presented in a way so you personally can entertain those ideas. If that is your thing that is. And that's why this topic exists
the game in a way gave you a sandbox to build your castle inside of it (or around it..or just throw that sand around xD).
I didn't expect this game, or any other game, to touch philosophical themes in any other way than just by giving you notions, hints, throwing questions, which you then can decide to think about, ponder on. Matters presented here are not the ones that we can ever gain final answers to anyway, just some various ways to explain things to yourself. That's how art works in general (if it chooses to comment on anything of philosophical nature). You receive questions and maybe hints to answers that were already proposed by others throughout our human history. That's it, the rest is up to you.
I kind of liked how REDs approached these matters here: a sort of a glance into the philosophical abyss between the lines. More than that would be too hard to swallow in a game. The damn thing still needs to be fun and entertaining, at least to me.
I kind of liked how REDs approached these matters here: a sort of a glance into the philosophical abyss between the lines. More than that would be too hard to swallow in a game. The damn thing still needs to be fun and entertaining, at least to me.
I would like to add; in the {Sacrum Profanum} mission, the monks call out to you so as not to kill anyone; {talk to them}. [[with the Maelstrom, not an easy thing to do, in a way they are | Deus ex machina |]].
this mission can be started quite early in a new game. then, we can say that we are invited by the monks to fight in a non-lethal way. many players play this way {not me, I am, alas, vindictive, yet knowing I am wrong to act so}.
Yes; the developers have opened a door to our way of thinking about our actions, especially our judgments. {Sinnerman is another perfect example}.
this mission can be started quite early in a new game. then, we can say that we are invited by the monks to fight in a non-lethal way. many players play this way {not me, I am, alas, vindictive, yet knowing I am wrong to act so}.
Yes; the developers have opened a door to our way of thinking about our actions, especially our judgments. {Sinnerman is another perfect example}.
"wrong" maybe not
They attack "innocent people" and modify them by force (especially listening to them before entering the building, it's enough "horrifying" to use the words of a Delamain's Cab)
So one could easily conclude that they largely deserve to be killed.
But as the monk says (if you don't kill them), it is not for us to judge the acts (which is subject to debate, if it is not us who will ?). Unlike Johnny who tells you that you shouldn't become a Merc if you're afraid of blood...
It's a bit the same decision as in the GIG nearby, with the father and son and their little BD's business.
And above all, later (if you don't kill the maelstromers), you can meet them and have a really interesting discussion (well for me).
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Yes. And when you entertain ideas too departed from their source of inspiration - that is called overinterpretation.
There is that, and then there is simple lore dump. You can do that masterfully, like Arthur C. Clarke spoke on AI and humanity's place in the universe and or Ursula K. LeGuin on evolution of society or Liu Cixin on the nature of intelligent life in the universe. Or you can just collect lines and concepts from Gibson and dump them onto Pondsmith's setting. It's all cool and nice and very cyberpunky - maybe best in games when it comes to cyberpunk (Beneath the Steel Sky, though...) - and looking great thanks to the millions of dollars put into graphic design - but this is no high philosophy.
I think there is definitely a spectrum along which different pieces present their "meta" thinking, from the borderline invisible (Shelley's Frankenstein, for instance, which didn't need elaboration because the underlying issue is plain as day so why reduce the art by inserting a treatise?), through the wilfully obscure (JB Priestley) all the way to the Brechtian approach of sledgehammering the message to force the audience to pay attention to the lessons being taught (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_theatre).
Different people will check in and check out at different rungs on that ladder (I can't abide Brecht, for example, because it feels to me like being punched in the face with messaging).
PS I write this as I have a conversation with monks about whether a copy of a person is still a person, whether the ability to reincarnate is necessary for a being to have a soul, and whether the capability to suffer is the essence of the soul, so I'm not sure where I'd put Cyberpunk's elucidation of its underlying themes on the sledgehammer scale but it wouldn't be at zero, and it's certainly not "we just threw some random stuff in the air and pretended we were thoughtful".
But nor is it a clunky lore dump, unless you consider every element of a main plot featuring:
- a duplicated consciousness inserted into someone's brain and overwriting the original owner's own,
- an encounter with that consciousness's ex girlfriend who is now a self-aware computer programme,
- prostitutes who lose self-awareness and freedom of action for the duration of each appointment, and
- the prospect of digitally-sustained immortality (with its concomitant disconnection of corporeal death from psychic death)
irrelevant and scarcely tangential to questions on the nature of souls, consciousness and the self. Which is quite a stretch.
Different people will check in and check out at different rungs on that ladder (I can't abide Brecht, for example, because it feels to me like being punched in the face with messaging).
PS I write this as I have a conversation with monks about whether a copy of a person is still a person, whether the ability to reincarnate is necessary for a being to have a soul, and whether the capability to suffer is the essence of the soul, so I'm not sure where I'd put Cyberpunk's elucidation of its underlying themes on the sledgehammer scale but it wouldn't be at zero, and it's certainly not "we just threw some random stuff in the air and pretended we were thoughtful".
But nor is it a clunky lore dump, unless you consider every element of a main plot featuring:
- a duplicated consciousness inserted into someone's brain and overwriting the original owner's own,
- an encounter with that consciousness's ex girlfriend who is now a self-aware computer programme,
- prostitutes who lose self-awareness and freedom of action for the duration of each appointment, and
- the prospect of digitally-sustained immortality (with its concomitant disconnection of corporeal death from psychic death)
irrelevant and scarcely tangential to questions on the nature of souls, consciousness and the self. Which is quite a stretch.
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in this mission I kill everyone, in particular the father and his stupid and cruel son {to make a rape of a child [see the computer] and his murder a joyful spectacle}."wrong" maybe not
They attack "innocent people" and modify them by force (especially listening to them before entering the building, it's enough "horrifying" to use the words of a Delamain's Cab)
So one could easily conclude that they largely deserve to be killed.
But as the monk says (if you don't kill them), it is not for us to judge the acts (which is subject to debate, if it is not us who will ?). Unlike Johnny who tells you that you shouldn't become a Merc if you're afraid of blood...
It's a bit the same decision as in the GIG nearby, with the father and son and their little BD's business.
And above all, later (if you don't kill the maelstromers), you can meet them and have a really interesting discussion (well for me).
but those with whom I have no pity are the scavengers. I never collect any of their items. it's to tell you how much I hate them.
I know, not human I am but who is in the game {human}?
First and foremost, not me.
I am Peace and Love but not with the monsters in the game. there are limits to everything.
[[when you won a fight you will be filled with sadness for having transgressed in spite of yourself your benchmarks in life.
when you have won all your fights, you will be annihilated because there will be no opponents left to fight. except one; yourself and it will be the worst of your fights; the fight against the opponent inside your spirit]]
on thought;
[[The cosmos is a thought that does not think, hanging on a thought that is thought]]
N. de Malebranche
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For me all the philosophical meditations that I wanted were present in the game but I often couldn't thoughtfully consider them because of the sense of my pace never matching what the devs wanted. Like sometimes I wanted to explore something but there's no mute/off button on the cell phone so I'd get interrupted or NPCs would scream at me in ways that didn't match the environment. I didn't know about the zen master so that is pretty cool.
I just recently learned about the Samurai logo
Oni are born when truly wicked humans die and end up in one of the many Buddhist Hells. Occasionally, when a human is so utterly wicked that his soul is beyond any redemption, he transforms into an oni during life, and remains on Earth to terrorize the living. These transformed oni are the ones most legends tell about, and the ones who pose the most danger to humankind.
So maybe the canonical ending is V getting reset before the ending of the game, stuck as an immortal demon terrorizing the citizens of Night City trying to find a job to become legendary but never achieving satisfaction.
I just recently learned about the Samurai logo
Oni are born when truly wicked humans die and end up in one of the many Buddhist Hells. Occasionally, when a human is so utterly wicked that his soul is beyond any redemption, he transforms into an oni during life, and remains on Earth to terrorize the living. These transformed oni are the ones most legends tell about, and the ones who pose the most danger to humankind.
So maybe the canonical ending is V getting reset before the ending of the game, stuck as an immortal demon terrorizing the citizens of Night City trying to find a job to become legendary but never achieving satisfaction.
Honestly I'm not a believer either, so souls and religions... But that just makes it interesting (maybe even more).
Like:
If our "consciousness" is just all of our memories and our experiences, that we faithfully copy these on a "digital storage".
If I die and this "copy" is reinserted into a body :
- If we are just datas, maybe all the religions are wrong ?
Saburo think he'll still him and he'll be immortal, but Alt think you're loose something (soul) and you won't be really you.
- "I" am immortal ?
- "I" am also the copy ?
- Or something (maybe the soul) is lost in the process and it won't really be "me" ?
Or it's something else, as the monks say, what defines having a soul, is pain. If someone/engram is able to feel pain, then they can be considered to have a soul.
"Just thinking about it, my head hurts"
This thing was very nicely portrait in the ending of Soma. When the protagonist realized he will not be saved in reality but just a copy of his consciousness will be uploaded. He was left there alone only to figure out the meaningless of his existence.
"Catherine? Please don't leave me alone"
Game is a masterpiece.
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True, Soma was surprisingly good in terms of story and some philosophical questions.
I'm just going to watch the Altered Carbon series, it looks like the subject can be interesting
Transferring human consciousness into a new body, "alive" for eternity...
Transferring human consciousness into a new body, "alive" for eternity...