The endings completely ruined the entire experience for me.

+
I also disliked the Face Camouflage forced surgery. Like, no push back from V at all? 'Uh hey, Reed? I don't want you to cut off my face....'
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My question about the overall tone and, kind of depressing ending is: does this match the original tabletop game? Was it just the tabletop game or were there also comic books or short novels also before the Edgerunners tv show and the cb77 video game?

Basically asking if the melancholy sad endings are in line with the original content creator's creations.

Or are we saying cyber punk as an overall genre is just melancholy and depressing?
Is there any cyberpunk genre stuff out there that is happy go lucky?
 
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Perhaps the discomfort you hold has more to it.

“No wonder we cannot appreciate the really central Kafka joke: that the horrific struggle to establish a human self results in a self whose humanity is inseparable from the horrific struggle. That our endless and impossible journey toward home is in fact our home.”

The issue isn't the game. The issue is reality. And the solution? More chrome choom.
 
My question about the overall tone and, kind of depressing ending is: does this match the original tabletop game?
Yeah, it does ;)
During this interview :
Matthew : "...and of course the man who kill your character in Cyberpunk, Mike Pondsmith. And when I say that Mike, I'm not just blowing smoke, I have here my original copy from when I was a kid, and you killed my characters...
Mike : "I'm glad you had a good time dying"
Cyberpunk TTRPG rules books can be found on the net (ou bought), so you can take a look quite easily of what kind of endings there in them.
And finally, to quote Mike Pondsmith himself : "Cyberpunk 2077 is a fanfic made by fans for fans"
 
My question about the overall tone and, kind of depressing ending is: does this match the original tabletop game? Was it just the tabletop game or were there also comic books or short novels also before the Edgerunners tv show and the cb77 video game?

Basically asking if the melancholy sad endings are in line with the original content creator's creations.

Or are we saying cyber punk as an overall genre is just melancholy and depressing?
Is there any cyberpunk genre stuff out there that is happy go lucky?


The thing with TTRPGs is the tone of the story is entirely dependent on the people making the story, mostly the gamemaster. There is no law that CP HAS to be super bleak and depressing. I doubt much of it is "happy go lucky" but the story can be whatever the person writing it wants. I have written several cyberpunk genre novels and they do not end on seriously depressing notes.

If people like that sort of thing, go for it. It just annoyed the heck out of me that absolutely every ending in this game is some variation of "main character dies". I despised going through 90% of the game being doomed to certain death. Again, i'm not looking for a "happy" ending... just hate being doomed and dead no matter what you do.

Now the PL ending is a form of survival but the writing around it is just bad. They ignored all logic and how the characters would actually react to make V surviving as utterly horrible as possible. I said it before, it almost feels like the developers were angry at the players for complaining about every ending being death.

V failed the main job. An ending where they live but disappear into the milieu like just another merc is a form of failure, too. That's not a "happy" ending per se.

I am really hoping they don't do the same nonsense with Orion (go through most of the game thinking you're going to die at the end and then finding out that every ending is death... if every ending of that game IS the character dying, I'm not going to bother with it.

And it is so weird that they let you refuse to drink booze or smoke if you dont' want to... but they force you to get that damn face implant. I find myself not wanting to even replay the PL stuff because there is no way to refuse having your face ripped off.
 
Yes I agree about having your face cut off without having a choice in it. I would have chosen to refuse that surgery.

I am speculating of course but I doubt the sequel Orion will have the main character terminally ill, and I also doubt there will be a celebrity inhabiting your body like Keanu Reeves. Which does make me excited to see where the new story goes.
 
Not everybody psychologically resonates with every genre. Cyberpunk is not a "feel good" genre. It's bleak, it's desperate, it's dangerous, and most likely things don't go well for characters in the genre...the most they can really hope for is to tread water for a time, but eventually they drown.

As in the real world...eventually everybody dies.

It's the exploration of man's relationships to technology, society, his fellow man, and himself that makes the genre wonderful -- not the fate of any particular character, even those we grow attached to. Strip away the action and violence and it's a very introspective and philosophical genre, and I think this game captures it perfectly.
 
Again, not asking for ALL the endings to be good, or even happy. I simply detest the "main character dies at the end" thing. Also, spending 90% of the game terminally ill just plain sucked. Especially where there is no logic behind the darkness. It's just darkness to be dark. The game even sets up the choice between chasing glory or choosing the quiet life but never gives you the chance to actually make that choice.

the "real world" comparisons don't really sway me. If I wanted real world i'd watch the news. I don't need "real world" in entertainment content that i'm paying for. Said it before, but if i knew before I got the game that the character you play dies in all endings, I would not have bought it.

If they do the same BS in Orion, I will not buy that game.

And yes I know they seemingly begrudgingly let the main character survive in the PL ending... but the stupidity around all the excessive "you live but everything else sucks as much as possible" is just eye-rollingly bad writing.

Plus the whole mandatory face removal thing. I was messing around with a throwing build to compare it to pistol stealth but going into the PL content now I keep thinking about the upcoming forced face rip off thing and it's just making me lose any desire to play the game again.
 
Again, not asking for ALL the endings to be good, or even happy. I simply detest the "main character dies at the end" thing. Also, spending 90% of the game terminally ill just plain sucked. Especially where there is no logic behind the darkness. It's just darkness to be dark. The game even sets up the choice between chasing glory or choosing the quiet life but never gives you the chance to actually make that choice.

the "real world" comparisons don't really sway me. If I wanted real world i'd watch the news. I don't need "real world" in entertainment content that i'm paying for. Said it before, but if i knew before I got the game that the character you play dies in all endings, I would not have bought it.

If they do the same BS in Orion, I will not buy that game.

And yes I know they seemingly begrudgingly let the main character survive in the PL ending... but the stupidity around all the excessive "you live but everything else sucks as much as possible" is just eye-rollingly bad writing.

Plus the whole mandatory face removal thing. I was messing around with a throwing build to compare it to pistol stealth but going into the PL content now I keep thinking about the upcoming forced face rip off thing and it's just making me lose any desire to play the game again.
I gotta disagree, Choom...it's not "darkness to be dark". It's "darkness to force character growth". V starts as a character with a lack of self awareness and just wants to be rich and famous. Jackie's death and the ticking time bomb in his/her skull forces V to confront their mortality, question how they behave, and ask questions about what really matters. Johnny acts as a foil to ask the questions that V should be asking and bounce those ideas off of each other (Johnny has his own character growth arc so it's not one-way).

Yes, the "V lives" ending isn't a totally happy ending, but that's the point. The Cyberpunk world can give you what you want, but you *must* give up something. V wants to be a legend? Okay, but now they have tech in their head killing them. Want V to continue? Johnny has to die, and vice versa. Want to keep living a normal life? Fine, but that means *really* being normal and not getting to just pick up your old life like nothing happens. There's no free lunch, there's no way to have it all. Pick your poison and give up the rest. It's like making a wish with a Genie... it will likely not turn out who you expect and you might regret the wish.

I know it's not what you like or want to hear, but that's how the genre works. You'll probably never be happy with it. It's also the basis of drama...if there's nothing driving V forward other than completing gigs and taking missions, the game is just a merry-go-round of empty tasks. You say it's bad writing, but it's actually the essence of good writing, giving characters difficult goals and having them make hard choices.

As an aside, who cares that V is sick/dying the whole time? They occasionally have a coughing fit and say some scary words. It doesn't affect game play or make you do anything any faster. There's no hard timer in the game you have to beat.
 
While the game doesn't implement a hard timer that forces you to rush, it /feels/ like there's a clock ticking. That's the part that I really disliked. I absolutely LOATHED having that Sword of Damocles hanging over me "you're going to die and there's nothing to be done about it". It genuinely detracted from the gameplay/story experience for me. I get that plenty of players have no problem with it, but this comment is based on my subjective experience... which was that this entire doom setup hit a false note with me. A very offputting note that makes me extremely hesitant to touch the sequel. I'm going to wait until there's enough info out there on the internet to see if every ending in Orion is "player dies" if so, i'm skipping it.

When I say the writing was bad, I'm not talking about V having to give up cyberware and become a normie. That, I would have been fine with. The bad writing is how EVERYTHING else about that ending is ridiculously bleak for the sake of being bleak. I would have been happy with the "V gives up the ability to use cyberware but gets to live, and now they're a normie" if the rest of that ending made any sense whatsoever.

The bad writing:

Why can't you accept the Langley job? My V had a 20 int. They're not stupid. I chose the 'peaceful life' dialogue options whenever possible, never expressing a driving urge to chase glory at all costs. Why can't my V realize given their situation that the Langley job is the best they're going to get now and just accept it?

Why do you have no choice but to go back to Night City?

You just woke up out of a two-year coma. Why in the absolute hell do they just let you leave immediately and go to Night City like it was no big deal. There's not even a one-line mention of a short period of time to get your strength back after lying in a bed for so long not moving.

Why does V not realize they're a normie and avoid dark alleys? (The meeting with those two punks who kick your ass, there's dialogue but it doesn't matter. Every iteration of reponses ends up with you getting your butt kicked. Because, you know, the ham-handed writing MUST reinforce that you are now a normal peon.

Also, if a player got through the game with minimal cyberware, as in not really even using combat cyberware to begin wtih, there's no reason suddenly not having the combat cyberware you weren't even using should make you a complete helpless marshmallow. Did all your stats get reset back to 3? Did you forget how to shoot or brawl or use a sword? (that is not stated, only that you can't use cyberware anymore).

Why can't Reed or anyone else keep in touch with your friends (at least your romance interest) so they don't all think you just disappeared off the face of the earth.

Why does every friend you made along the way suddenly want nothing whatsoever to do with you? Especially Panam. No explanation. Just gone. It's very lazy writing at best, if not bad.

It's the writers saying basically "okay, so a lot of people were not happy with V dying in every ending, so here you go. Here's an ending where V lives... but oh look at that. The original endings where you die don't seem all that bad now. Are you happy?"

It feels like spite.

Also, while there is a lot of darkness and bleakness in CP, to claim that ALL CP stories MUST end on a down note is just plain wrong.

V surviving in the PL ending as a normie would've been fine if all the surrounding stuff made logical sense. It doesn't.

Ideally, I'd have had a cure that let V continue being a merc (the unhappy part there is they failed to become a legend/lost Jackie etc). Maybe they find a way to let Johnny stay in V's head and they share it without any sort of deathclock hanging over them. Maybe a mission to sneak into a Nightcorp basement and plug the relic into a blank body so Johnny is now a separate entity. I dunno. Something. Just not EVERY ending being you're dead (either immediately or in six months).

The logic that Alt gives you "the body is Johnny now so V can't be in it" makes zero sense. If that were true, your body should've rejected Johnny initially. If the technology exists for the chip to "change" V's body, then the tech exists to do the same thing in reverse and put V back to rights. The logic in the writing doesn't care about logic, only in preserving the "you must die no matter what" narrative.

Another grumble about that stupid quest where you get your face ripped off. No way around that. No way to skip it. I don't even want to replay the PL storyline because of that. The writers were considerate enough to let players avoid drinking and smoking... but you have no choice about having your face ripped off. Makes no sense. The game already had Alex with that implant. She could've impersonated one of the twins while V did some stealth stuff in the air ducts or whatever. Make it longer/more difficult. Just... ugh.
 
Another grumble about that stupid quest where you get your face ripped off. No way around that. No way to skip it. I don't even want to replay the PL storyline because of that. The writers were considerate enough to let players avoid drinking and smoking... but you have no choice about having your face ripped off. Makes no sense. The game already had Alex with that implant. She could've impersonated one of the twins while V did some stealth stuff in the air ducts or whatever. Make it longer/more difficult. Just... ugh.
Yeah many parts of the phantom liberty mission seemed ham fisted and really like the writers were trying to fit a circular peg in a square hole.
I also really did not like when...
ok well the spoiler function is not working properly for me.

what i was saying is i don't like when those 2 ppl in the phantom liberty mission were Executed. And you had no option or choice to stop it.
the red heads.
 
Yeah many parts of the phantom liberty mission seemed ham fisted and really like the writers were trying to fit a circular peg in a square hole.
I also really did not like when...
ok well the spoiler function is not working properly for me.

what i was saying is i don't like when those 2 ppl in the phantom liberty mission were Executed. And you had no option or choice to stop it.
the red heads.
I prefer when players have as much choices as possible, but sometimes writers have to make things happen to tell the story they want to tell.
The event you're talking about have a purpose and make sense :
- This show players how NUSA FIA operate... No mercy and do not leave witness behind.
- V is not the one in charge, nor here to take decision.
- This may make players doubt whether they can trust Reed/Alex/Myers or not.
- This support what Johnny said sooner > V is a little fish swimming with sharks.

It remind me of people who wanted to say "no" to Dex in the car... Ok fine, but then what? The end credits roll and the story ends before it started?
It's a "story driven" game, so times to times, events have to happen, you like them or not.
 
It remind me of people who wanted to say "no" to Dex in the car... Ok fine, but then what? The end credits roll and the story ends before it started?
Knowing what I know now, that "all endings lead to death", if there was an option to refuse Dex's job., I absolutely would refuse it.. then just run around doing gigs, side jobs and whatnot. I hate the whole "you're going to die in 6 months" thing THAT much.
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The event you're talking about have a purpose and make sense :
- This show players how NUSA FIA operate... No mercy and do not leave witness behind.
I, too, was kinda shocked and disappointed in that particular execution. It felt a little heavy handed writing wise. Like you would think an intelligence agency would be a bit more subtle... Felt just contrived to force the issue as you said to sow distrust of the FIA. Especially given the minor story elements of the Peralezes being mind influenced. The FIA could've abducted the twins and brainwashed them to forget the whole abduction. But yeah, they needed a clumsy scene just to wave "look the FIA can be evil too. Look how evil they are" in our faces.
 
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I prefer when players have as much choices as possible, but sometimes writers have to make things happen to tell the story they want to tell.
The event you're talking about have a purpose and make sense :
- This show players how NUSA FIA operate... No mercy and do not leave witness behind.
- V is not the one in charge, nor here to take decision.
- This may make players doubt whether they can trust Reed/Alex/Myers or not.
- This support what Johnny said sooner > V is a little fish swimming with sharks.

It remind me of people who wanted to say "no" to Dex in the car... Ok fine, but then what? The end credits roll and the story ends before it started?
It's a "story driven" game, so times to times, events have to happen, you like them or not.
Ah I see what you mean. Yes this is a good point. Though I am still sad about my friend Aurore. Her character design is very good. The voice actor did a good job too. Though maybe, as a Yankee, any woman speaking French does a good job. LOL
 
Ah I see what you mean. Yes this is a good point. Though I am still sad about my friend Aurore. Her character design is very good. The voice actor did a good job too. Though maybe, as a Yankee, any woman speaking French does a good job. LOL
Yeah, it's quite the same at the end of a previous quest, with Slider (VDB netrunner). But of course, Slider isn't as sexy as Aurore.
V : "It seems Slider did not survive."
Reed : "He was a scumbag... You won't feel bad for him?"
V : "You wouldn't have left him alive, would you?"
Reed : "Doesn't matter, what does it change now"
I think this is exactly the kind of feelings writers wanted players to experience > "What the hell Reed! Why? Damn it sucks..."

On side note, in the english version, when the twins talk french to each other, as a french, it doesn't feel they're french natives, at all. It's rather bad to be honest :D
 
This is a fair point, if optimism is something up your alley, but for me, the endings were perfect. I finished all endings (except the secret one) Pre Phantom Liberty and I was going through a rough patch. Suicide isn't the way, but I thought the opposite at the time. the game credits rolled on September 26th 2021 for me, but 2 weeks before it, I was planning my suicide. All of the endings gave me a hold back as I saw how it would affect those close to me in game. Dying/Suicide that is. it delayed it for a while. and that's something no other video game can do. at least that's what I think. Maybe V dies, but they had a cool and awesome life. it meant something, it left an impact. My life on the other hand didn't have any of that. yet I still proceeded with my deed. I survived, but at what cost? The best friends i entrusted with my plan and decision acted sublime, but i hurt them in the process, and things were never the same again, or so it seemed. just Like V, i had a Misty and a Johnny during my "final hour". This game is pure perfection. (obviously ignoring any bug or anything like that). The Suicide ending is so close to my heart because it shows you how ugly suicide is and how much damage it can cause. it gave me 1 more month to live, that's something to commend, not to hate. Oct 25th 2021 shall haunt me for the rest of eternity. but I got weapons to fight with now. Real, brutal, no bullshit endings is a cornerstone of this game. these are my two cents.

I'll probably sob every time I choose the Suicide ending, have fun choom, life is chrome!
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I will tell you everything ends as bad it's everywhere. It's so everywhere that it's just bad writing now. If you can't make a good argument for all dark endings then it's just bad writing. The real world excuse is so overused.

Orion better have a good ending or the game is going in the bargain bin. You have people already at the throats of borderland's 3 for it's bad writing and characters. V can be up crap creek if he's not the main but people prefer he has a hopeful ending.

Yeah the no new game plus and no happy ending is going to make people only hate red. Also why doesn't V just have other cuberware that isn't combat like his jumping ones, his heart pump, his Kiroshi eyes or Vik says you got tricked Wich then gives us a new story for V and this time he is getting his/her revenge.
 
Is it inherently bad writing, or is the lack of happiness in the conclusion(s) that makes it bad?
I will tell you everything ends as bad it's everywhere. It's so everywhere that it's just bad writing now. If you can't make a good argument for all dark endings then it's just bad writing. The real world excuse is so overused.

Orion better have a good ending or the game is going in the bargain bin. You have people already at the throats of borderland's 3 for it's bad writing and characters. V can be up crap creek if he's not the main but people prefer he has a hopeful ending.

Yeah the no new game plus and no happy ending is going to make people only hate red. Also why doesn't V just have other cuberware that isn't combat like his jumping ones, his heart pump, his Kiroshi eyes or Vik says you got tricked Wich then gives us a new story for V and this time he is getting his/her revenge.
 
That's a good question. It could be both depends on the series on cyberpunk the lack of hope despite the asking blaze of glory or quiet life question, for game of thrones it was how you felt like they just spun a wheel to choose who would die, with it ending up on the favorite contestants turning up with not much back up.
 
We've been through this several times, which is fine. It just means that the game keeps getting new players.

Anyway, the tone of the endings never bothered me. It's cyberpunk. That doesn't require "sad" endings, but it definitely sets up the normal expectation. Deckard only thought he had gotten a good ending. My complaint with the endings and with the story is that they make no sense in the context of an open world game. That's true for the original endings, and true for the new endings with PL.

For the next game in the series, I don't expect much to change in terms of my character going on in a blaze of glory instead of out in one. But I do hope the story works better for an open world (assuming that it's going to be an open world game).
 
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