The game codex: world building, problem solving and more

[chriswebb2020.736]

We don't stop using computers because hackers can attack them. We get protection. Then the hackers defeat the protection. Then we get an update. Then the hackers beat that update...
The cycle continues...

The same would apply to any 'essential' device, including cyberware.

Why would the neural processor be connected online? The only thing that would be hooked online is maybe a the times square marquees news feed, but even then it would be like trying to hack a car via it's car stereo... you are just going to be hacking the stereo... sure you could make the next few seconds really annoying for the user, but they will just turn it off...

I have always been under the impression that the neural processor is what intergrates the control of cyberware. Am I wrong? This processor connects to every other peice of cyberwear installed in the user. If ANYTHING has a live feed connection, then that in turn sends information to the processor. That's the window a hacker would use.

A Times Square Marquee is an option that works through the users cyber-eyes. It merely enables a change in the display. It does not process the data. It is not a stand alone device.

Think of it as a compuer peripheral.
A mouse or keyboard can provide all sorts of information, but it can't do squat without a connection to something that recieves that data. But that data is meaning less to us without a monitor to display it.

You are thinking it's not only going to be vastly different from 2020, but also vastly different from real life it seems.

Well, CP2020 use a slightly different data technology to real life. If they had to replace it, why would'nt still be different?
I am not talking about ALL the tech, more the 'language'. In my opinion, it would have to be totally impossible for the data crash virus to infect the new system. Otherwise, all it would take is one anarchist nut job to data crash the world again.

Kind of like how Xbox games don't work in Playstations. Just take that to an extreme. I'm certainly not suggesting 'biological' data recording or anything. I may be suggesting dumping binary code, I'm not sure.

If you disrupt the functioning of a heart, you ARE inducing a heart attack, or at the very least serious palpitations. If you disrupt an arm, in a combat situation, you might as well be making them punch themselves. Once you can get in, you can get it... the point I am making is that you shouldn't be able to get in in the first place., because tht is a pretty serious flaw in cyber design... one that YOU aren't going to be the first person to have discovered, and the flaw would be quickly corrected long before you come around. In a world with Rache Batrmoss's and Alt Cunninghams, who have already crashed world wide society and economics once and spawned a great many followers, do you really think manufacturers are going to purposely leave open such an obvious risk to the security of their products? To the lawsuits that would come quickly and devastatingly en masse?

If you want to disrupt them, hit them with EMP, or an electrical attack.

I am NOT suggesting heart attacks. I cannot make that clear enough.
I am NOT suggesting that we make people punch themselves.

I am suggesting a second or two of 'glitching' from some sort of data surge feedback. I am talking about a second or two of 'shakes', slowed reaction times, slower reload speeds. Maybe even a second or two of reticule drift.

No remote control. No death by hacking.

Obviously, this would not be possible without a connection. No connection, no hack. And I am not saying 'I' would 'invent' it. What's to say that with an advent of connectivity, (much like today,) then opportunities would arise. What is stopping Rache Bartmoss or Alt Cunningham having already discovered the method? They would only be lacking the means.

It may not be written in any of the source material, but that doesn't mean it hasn't or couldn't happen.

I am just fleshing out an idea. maybe Mike will spot it, see my reasoning, and then it could be added.
Isn't that the whole point of this community?

 

[Sardukhar]

Hmm.

I wonder if we could get the player's Datafortress/Codex to feed in from a wiki? Or a Chromebook-style format where PnP data is uploadable?

I wonder if we can make reeeeally sure that codex data doesn't give you a flashing mission objective outside what you mark yourself from clues you read or dialogue you hear?

 

[Neural_Cipher]

I too hate how games these days take you by the hand and lead you through them, pinging mission objects and where to go arrows what have you because th epoor kids in teh test group were confused about where to go.

I hear it a lot, players were confused did not know where to go... this leads to mission objectives and marker and where to go helping aid being all over my screen because some moron didn't want to think about what he had to do or where to go.

It would be fantastic if we could make our own notes and guide lines. You have amission objective or 3 to complete, you could jot down helpful info about what to do so you can approach teh mission at a later time when your ready and bang, you already got a quick memory job about what you were after. Being ablel to make our own waypoints or turn off certain quest helping hug thingys would be anice to, I like the feelign of being lost and figuring out my own way.

Obviously this is not for everyone, so a turn on/off option would be cool.

 

[Mister_Lizard]

I like it. Any maps you have you will have to get, from there you can netrun or do surveillance for guard path and other intel any mark up on the maps are there because you put them there, through whatever means at your disposal. Waypoints are all player generated. Store your information in your datafortress and only download what you think will be pertinent to the job at hand to your phone/PDA/Times Square +.

 

[Sardukhar]

Upload the maps and codex to your actual, IRL phone and laptop. And vice versa.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Hmm.

I wonder if we could get the player's Datafortress/Codex to feed in from a wiki? Or a Chromebook-style format where PnP data is uploadable?

I wonder if we can make reeeeally sure that codex data doesn't give you a flashing mission objective outside what you mark yourself from clues you read or dialogue you hear?

Again, modular HUD should solve that. Some want it, some don't.

I do like the idea of having an in-game browser for a wiki page. If we could keep the wiki and our data cache seperate, that would be good. Especially as wiki pages can potentially be misleading, (although I don't see that as a bad thing )

Also, our datafortress could be a window to more social elements in the game. Imagine 'hiring' other players to netrun for you while you carry out a mission. I think that could have potential...

Upload the maps and codex to your actual, IRL phone and laptop. And vice versa.

I like how The Division is going to use smartphones and tablets. Being able to upload this sort of data to a real mobile device sounds good.

Something else that could be cool would be to use these same devices for netrunning.

 

[wisdom000]

We don't stop using computers because hackers can attack them. We get protection. Then the hackers defeat the protection. Then we get an update. Then the hackers beat that update...
The cycle continues...

The same would apply to any 'essential' device, including cyberware.

Um, no....it really wouldn;t... What possible use would there be to connect your arm to the internet? Why would anyone want to have their liver connected to the internet, or even agree to such a thing... especially in an era where hacking is a major pastime for 1 out of every 10 people.

I have always been under the impression that the neural processor is what intergrates the control of cyberware. Am I wrong? This processor connects to every other peice of cyberwear installed in the user. If ANYTHING has a live feed connection, then that in turn sends information to the processor. That's the window a hacker would use.

Yes, you are kind of wrong...

A neuralwear processor is required for all neural augmentation... smartlinks, reflex boosters, mini-comps etc... It acts as a central switching box for all these devices. However just like a car contains a radio, you can not use the radio to hack the steering of the, or even the windshield wipers. Cyberlimbs and organs themselves are not connected to the neuralware preocessor, they are connected directly to bone and nerve endings, though some of their options, like a wearman tv, might be, allowing them to mentally control the device.

Now as I said, it is true that you could find someone who is jacked in to a dataterm or a cybermodem, and hack them that way, as that signal would definitely be traveling through the neural interface, but you would be limited in what you could access with it, and the usefulness of such a thing would be extremely limited, since the moment they jack out your connection is lost.

Well, CP2020 use a slightly different data technology to real life. If they had to replace it, why would'nt still be different?
I am not talking about ALL the tech, more the 'language'. In my opinion, it would have to be totally impossible for the data crash virus to infect the new system. Otherwise, all it would take is one anarchist nut job to data crash the world again.

The problem with that is that any system that tried to identify the datakrash virus and its code would crash itself... I am pretty sure the idea of ANOTHER anarchist nutbag doing it again is pretty high on the list of people's fears, and more than enough cause for people not to accept cyber that needlessly connects to the internet.

I am NOT suggesting heart attacks. I cannot make that clear enough.
I am NOT suggesting that we make people punch themselves.

I am suggesting a second or two of 'glitching' from some sort of data surge feedback. I am talking about a second or two of 'shakes', slowed reaction times, slower reload speeds. Maybe even a second or two of reticule drift.

No remote control. No death by hacking.

And what I am saying is, that if you can get in far enough to cause disruptions, then the door is open for the other things as well... slippery slope and all that.

Obviously, this would not be possible without a connection. No connection, no hack. And I am not saying 'I' would 'invent' it. What's to say that with an advent of connectivity, (much like today,) then opportunities would arise. What is stopping Rache Bartmoss or Alt Cunningham having already discovered the method? They would only be lacking the means.

It may not be written in any of the source material, but that doesn't mean it hasn't or couldn't happen.

I am just fleshing out an idea. maybe Mike will spot it, see my reasoning, and then it could be added.
Isn't that the whole point of this community?

I am answering your reasoning.. with reason...

It doesn;t work because the first time there was even a rumor of it being possible, no one would trust it at all. Look at the bullshit "vaccines cause autism" crap.... now we have things like smallpox, which we had all but eradicated in the world, making a comeback because people are stupid enough to believe the nonsense. Imagine a world where a large percentage of the population has cybernetics, and then them being told that those cybernetics can be hacked in any way...

I remember when my toy battlestar galactica viper had little dart things it would shoot... then they didn't do that anymore because one retarded kid choked to death on one. I remember a time when at halloween the streets would be bloody filled with kids, then the myth of "stranger danger" and "poison candy" kicked in and now halloween night the streets are virtually empty. I still have Lawn Darts, which are now completely illegal...

Never underestimate paranoia and fear, or what it can do to profits... or how the actions of one asshole or idiot can ruin things for everyone.

Hell look at X-Box back-pedalling from their own stupidity as quickly as they can...

 

[Sardukhar]

Aaand the above has what exactly to do with the on/offline knowledge base for players? Especially since the DF/codex wouldn't even be on the player, necessarily?

 

[Garrison72]

This is a great idea.

-edit. I failed to actually quote Sard's notion of uploading the codex to another device.

 

[wisdom000]

Aaand the above has what exactly to do with the on/offline knowledge base for players? Especially since the DF/codex wouldn't even be on the player, necessarily?

Not sure... i was away for a few playing Last Of Us, now I am confused...

On the other hand, all my our threads get derailed too, this way Slim doesn't feel left out

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Um, no....it really wouldn;t... What possible use would there be to connect your arm to the internet? Why would anyone want to have their liver connected to the internet, or even agree to such a thing... especially in an era where hacking is a major pastime for 1 out of every 10 people.

The arm itself would not be connected, but the neural interface would be, and that commands the limb.

Yes, you are kind of wrong...

A neuralwear processor is required for all neural augmentation... smartlinks, reflex boosters, mini-comps etc... It acts as a central switching box for all these devices. However just like a car contains a radio, you can not use the radio to hack the steering of the, or even the windshield wipers. Cyberlimbs and organs themselves are not connected to the neuralware preocessor, they are connected directly to bone and nerve endings, though some of their options, like a wearman tv, might be, allowing them to mentally control the device.

Now as I said, it is true that you could find someone who is jacked in to a dataterm or a cybermodem, and hack them that way, as that signal would definitely be traveling through the neural interface, but you would be limited in what you could access with it, and the usefulness of such a thing would be extremely limited, since the moment they jack out your connection is lost.

The basic neural processor is a "switchbox" implanted into the. lower spine, and is used to route signals from external cyberwear to the central nervous system. It is the main system for any type of neural interface, including reflex boosters, interface plugs, weapon, DataTerm and vehicle links, mini-computers and sensory augmentations. The Neural processor has a small inspection space which allows secondary co-processors to be inserted into the basic processor module. This makes upgrading a process of opening the inspection space in a sterile environment and inserting the new co-processors.

According to this, I am right. It does not speciffy that it is for neuralware, but for all cyberware. This does make sense, because it explains how the technology interfaces with the host body.

And what I am saying is, that if you can get in far enough to cause disruptions, then the door is open for the other things as well... slippery slope and all that.

Infacting a PC with a virus is one thing. Making it explode remotely with a virus is something totally different. the same principle would be true of cyber limbs.

I am answering your reasoning.. with reason...

It doesn;t work because the first time there was even a rumor of it being possible, no one would trust it at all. Look at the bullshit "vaccines cause autism" crap.... now we have things like smallpox, which we had all but eradicated in the world, making a comeback because people are stupid enough to believe the nonsense. Imagine a world where a large percentage of the population has cybernetics, and then them being told that those cybernetics can be hacked in any way...

I remember when my toy battlestar galactica viper had little dart things it would shoot... then they didn't do that anymore because one retarded kid choked to death on one. I remember a time when at halloween the streets would be bloody filled with kids, then the myth of "stranger danger" and "poison candy" kicked in and now halloween night the streets are virtually empty. I still have Lawn Darts, which are now completely illegal...

Never underestimate paranoia and fear, or what it can do to profits... or how the actions of one asshole or idiot can ruin things for everyone.

Hell look at X-Box back-pedalling from their own stupidity as quickly as they can...

In EVE Online, scams are going on all the time. They are actively encouraged by the developers. I have watch people lose upwards of 20 billion isk (at the time 500m isk bought you a plex worth just shy of $20,) which equates to $400 in real money. I have seen confirmed loses of over 100 billion isk and more.
It doesn't matter how many times people are told it's all a scam, they still fall for it.

People are still giving money to Pyramid Schemes and 'Nigerian Banks'. Why? Because it's too good to be true. Because our species is gullable and stupid. (Look up 'The Dawrin Awards' and tell me we aren't.)

How about all those nut jobs who think they have been abducted? I'm not saying non of them have, but my missus watch a program the other night about it and there was a woman on there who insisted she was being abducted all the time, especially after eating KFC... If a few people turned round and said that their cyber arm was hacked during a firefight, (if they survived to tell people about it,) then would they be believed? Do you not think the Cyberware manufacturers would pass it off as a firmware issue rather than admit their product was vulnerable? No-one would buy their products. They would go bump. It would be in their own best interests to cover up any such vulnerability. And they could pull it off because people trust authority. That is why the Cyberpunk world is so screwed up, because that trust was misplaced.
The victims would be viewed as nut jobs, and thats IF they survived the fight to tell about it.
Even if they survived, would they know for sure they had been hacked? If it looks like a glitch, acts like a glitch, it's a glitch, right?

Rayne Somher puts it quite well in todays comic.

Oh, and uploading your personal DataCache to real devices, AWESOME IDEA!

 

[wisdom000]

The arm itself would not be connected, but the neural interface would be, and that commands the limb.

According to this, I am right. It does not speciffy that it is for neuralware, but for all cyberware. This does make sense, because it explains how the technology interfaces with the host body.

Um... no... reading is fundamental.... the arm is not connected to the processor.... lets take a look at the bit of text you quoted from the book again shall we...

The basic neural processor is a "switchbox" implanted into the. lower spine, and is used to route signals from external cyberwear to the central nervous system. It is the main system for any type of neural interface, including reflex boosters, interface plugs, weapon, DataTerm and vehicle links, mini-computers and sensory augmentations. The Neural processor has a small inspection space which allows secondary co-processors to be inserted into the basic processor module. This makes upgrading a process of opening the inspection space in a sterile environment and inserting the new co-processors.

Notice how, while they mention carious smartlinks seperately, not one mention of limbs or organs is given, not one. Nor is there anything there to indicate a need for the processor to be connected to the net, other than through the specific use of requisite smartlinks... The Neural Processor is required for all NEURAL WARE... not all cybernetics.

Now lets take a look at the cyberlimb description, page 88.

The joints are stainless steel. The Cyberlimb plugs into a special nerve interface jack mounted in the flesh above the limb, while the main unit is coupled to a metal and plastic cuff around the meat part of the limb. The cuff usually placed at the upper bicep/thigh or the elbow/knee. however, arms may also be attached to an artificial shoulder, and anchored to an external arm mount.

notice how it doesn't mention the neural processor at all...

Really, I am kinda done with this debate... at this point it's just going in circles, and we have derailed the thread enough. If you really want to continue, we can take it to the Cybernetics thread.

 

[presticles]

I don't mean to interject too much here about this but. Assuming that cybernetics still make use of efferent and afferent electrical impulses from CNS i.e. Reflexes. It would have to be connected to the spinal cord as well as anything else. So a neural processor would be required for all cybernetics as there wouldn't be a way to jack in those impulses from the CNS and process spinal reflexes otherwise unless there is an unmentioned piece of hardware input into the spinal system.

Your arms and legs sense pain/heat and other things this doesn't go to your brain first, the efferent and afferent nerves trigger your limbs to recoil from potentially harmful things. This happens prior to any pain being felt in the brain as it passes through the spinal cord.

So unless cybernetic designers didn't mind you putting your hand on burning hot stoves ruining the REALSKIN outer shell, and wanted no pain or reflexes..then cybernetics would need to be connected to a neural interface.


*Edit: I shouldn't say "ALL" cybernetics as a Mr.Studd wouldn't need a neural interface. But limbs definitely need them.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

The basic neural processor is a "switchbox" implanted into the. lower spine, and is used to route signals from external cyberwear to the central nervous system. It is the main system for any type of neural interface, including reflex boosters, interface plugs, weapon, DataTerm and vehicle links, mini-computers and sensory augmentations. The Neural processor has a small inspection space which allows secondary co-processors to be inserted into the basic processor module. This makes upgrading a process of opening the inspection space in a sterile environment and inserting the new co-processors.

And yet, it specifically says 'external cyberware'. Not Neuralware, Cyberware. It also only says that it is the main system for neural interface.

It even states on page 80 that Neural Processor's are the most important part of cyberwear.

I guess at the end of the day it's a little too vague and different people interpret what it says differently.

I guess Mike will have to settle it

 

[Sardukhar]

I guess each of you are hung equally well. Who knew!

Back to The Codex, a subject Slim has probably long since thrown his hands up about and gone off to molest a Nilfgaardian...whatever.

 

[Sardukhar]

I was thinking the codex would be a great place not only to of course check your character, but also the place to print your character off from. You cuold nicely interface your character customization, gear and current fashion with your PnP stats and even in-game history.

If their was a section -for- PnP, it could have a copy of the FNFF rules, weapon damages and so on, allowing easy integration across platforms.

That way, when we get the PnP App online, you'll be able to play Cyberpunk everywhere, using your 2077 characters to do so!

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I was thinking the codex would be a great place not only to of course check your character, but also the place to print your character off from. You cuold nicely interface your character customization, gear and current fashion with your PnP stats and even in-game history.

If their was a section -for- PnP, it could have a copy of the FNFF rules, weapon damages and so on, allowing easy integration across platforms.

That way, when we get the PnP App online, you'll be able to play Cyberpunk everywhere, using your 2077 characters to do so!

I am Buddy Christ and I approve of this.

 

[braindancer12]

I thought that a 'library' would be a good place to get some of the timeline together.

I know some people don't give a rats ass about the story, but for those of us who do, a library trip could be very cool.

Learning about gangs and corporations through a 'journal/codex' method sounds pretty good though.

a library in the cyber space would be nice

 

[auris2]

ooohh. Dataterms.

Codexs and such can add a lot to the player's experience of they're interested in learning more about the game world. Why bash players over the head with exposition when they'll self-educate if they're already interested in the world? A codex is a great way to add depth while cutting development costs.

Penny Arcade's Extra Credits show thouched upon this topic in their episode titled 'Tangential Learning'. If you haven't seen Extra Credits, it's an excellent show which explores the intelligent side of gaming, how it's evolving as an art form, how developers can improve thier games, etc. It's very interesting stuff. Go check it out.

For a dark, gritty, and mature RPG though.... the standard codex should really only include stuff that regular citizens should know. Stuff about the dark underbelly of the city should be found elsewhere or in a separate, off the grid codex. A 'Hitchiker's Guide to Night City' as it were.

Awesome!! +1 for linking to an extra credits video!

 

[guidokpd]

*Edit: I shouldn't say "ALL" cybernetics as a Mr.Studd wouldn't need a neural interface. But limbs definitely need them.

How would you feel pleasure from the Mr.Studd without the Neural Interface? Doesn't it say in the lore that limbs feel pain but the sense can be switched off?