The graveyard hate from multiple factions really kills Skellige for me

[Void_Singer]

How exactly does a greatsword get to 20 when A) Viper witchers wipe all of them and B) NG uses graveyard hate to wreck what decent cards you might have in there?

A) if you opponent does that, pat yourself on the back and either resurrect them, or enjoy avg 1pt/turn gain from the longships that they should have used them on (which also have corsairs to res them)
B) Viper don't generally play V.Medic which is really the only "Graveyard Hate" you really need to worry about... Assire is even less of a concern in general because decks that do use tend to load their owon decks.

 

[1990BW]

I don't think Vicovaro medics and Assire are OP.
Their winrates are (very) bad (<50%) and the chance you'll cross them is (very) low.
In the end every deck needs it's weakness(es), if you face them rely on strategy instead of routine.
The starting post already answers the problem: it's not the graveyard but the NG alchemy deck.

Regarding the NG alchemy deck, I tried it this afternoon to learn it's weaknesses.
What I've learned so far is that they are vulnerable to:

- Weather effects, to benefit from mahakem ale they need 3 rows
- Banished units, with mandrake and mardroeme they only can ressurect a limited number of units with ointment
- Scorch, with all the mahakam ale boosting you can deal a lot of damage
- Artefact compression, in many decks you can play this twice
- Charm, flip their lowest units to your side
- Foul ale, a guaranteed 18 damage
- Counter Foul ale, by placing all your units on one row
- Draw cards, fill their hand up with alchemy cards making vicovaro novices and vesemir less usefull
- Letho Kingslayer, deal a lot of damage to an mandraked + boosted ressurected leader

Still the viper witcher and in some decks the slave driver are too disrupting.
The only thing you can do about this is sharing suggestions on this forum and wait for a balance patch.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

With the decline in spies, Vicovaro Medic is also used less. So, the only thing NG can do is use Assire, which can be semi-countered by using Crach/Recon/ADC/etc, if the opponent even has the chance to use Assire.

As for Viper Witchers, there are only 3. That's not always enough to kill all threats (Longships and Greatswords), because SK can just keep ressing both, where needed.

Not sure what you mean by countering Assire.

Viper witchers are usually played 6 times because of the ridiculous ointment card. That means the cards you want to strengthen are usually wiped out early so trying to get anything good in the graveyard to rez is very hard.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

A) if you opponent does that, pat yourself on the back and either resurrect them, or enjoy avg 1pt/turn gain from the longships that they should have used them on (which also have corsairs to res them)

I don't get why you say pay yourself on the back when this is a very bad thing. With no great swords in the first round you will have nothing good to Freya later which is the only possible way to win against them.

B) Viper don't generally play V.Medic which is really the only "Graveyard Hate" you really need to worry about... Assire is even less of a concern in general because decks that do use tend to load their owon decks.

The decks that do use her (like the example I gave in the OP) will definitely use her to disrupt your one decent card in your grave leaving you with essentially a bricked rez.

 

[Ic3Purple]

Btw, your post is mostly complaining about Alchemy Nilfgaard and not really graveyard hate. Maybe you ought to change the title?

Besides, he started naming "monsters", and then he goes all about NG! xD

I think he wanted to include cards that eats the graveyard as well ahhaha.

In my opinion, keep nerfing as the only solution to balance the game it is a wrong way to go... As for the Dwarfs and Mill in the midwinter, 2 archetype are completely gone...

I don't think decreasing the variety of archetypes is healthy for the game. There are still a lot of dead cards and archetypes out there, and this month we have the Spies. So, lets kill also the alchemy today? What will be left of NG? And I say this as being a MO - NR player.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Besides, he started naming "monsters", and then he goes all about NG! xD

I think he wanted to include cards that eats the graveyard as well ahhaha.

In my opinion, keep nerfing as the only solution to balance the game it is a wrong way to go... As for the Dwarfs and Mill in the midwinter, 2 archetype are completely gone...

I don't think decreasing the variety of archetypes is healthy for the game. There are still a lot of dead cards and archetypes out there, and this month we have the Spies. So, lets kill also the alchemy today? What will be left of NG? And I say this as being a MO - NR player.

The graveyard hate from NG was a prime reason I made the thread.

 

[Beernchips]

Problem if you balance only by buffing it means every things goes out of power, thats why today "standard bronze" is 12 power without set up
About Graveyard, the only problem I have is that you can rez multiple time the same card with bronze rez. Skellige is much more a necromancy faction by zombifying all his units that a real "raiding" faction.
I thing the bronze rez (ointment, freya...) should apply the doomed tag so you have real differences between the silver rez and the bronzes one

 

[4RM3D]

Not sure what you mean by countering Assire.

When the opponent puts a 20 strength Greatsword back in the deck, you can play Crach or get a lucky Recon and such.

Viper witchers are usually played 6 times because of the ridiculous ointment card.

6 Times, yes. But not 6 times in one round. You can bait out the Viper Witchers, after which the opponent can only pass to prevent your engines building up strength.

 

[Void_Singer]

I don't get why you say pay yourself on the back when this is a very bad thing. With no great swords in the first round you will have nothing good to Freya later which is the only possible way to win against them.

because at best they've robbed you of a few rez points in r3, but they cost themselves immediate points in both the round they are in, AND in r3 because longships still gain in the immediate round, and they won't get full value from their hits with VW in either round. Killing greatswords slows the engine, killing Longships stops it. (and both enable early rez). not that it has anything to do at all with graveyard mechanics.

The decks that do use her (like the example I gave in the OP) will definitely use her to disrupt your one decent card in your grave leaving you with essentially a bricked rez.

that can happen, which is why you play around it... use your rez earlier so that you aren't leaving them targets that will brick your cards in hand. either r1 continuous recycle, or r2 press, and immediately on r3 if you go first. the same applies to mirror matches with NG slave drivers/grave robbers, or Nekkers with Ozzrel, etc. you don't even need to tech against it. but if you do, I suggest either fetches like ADC or Crach, or D-Bomb or Yrden since they rely on boosts for their points. weather works too but it's less effective IMO.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

because at best they've robbed you of a few rez points in r3, but they cost themselves immediate points in both the round they are in, AND in r3 because longships still gain in the immediate round, and they won't get full value from their hits with VW in either round. Killing greatswords slows the engine, killing Longships stops it. (and both enable early rez). not that it has anything to do at all with graveyard mechanics.

"A few rez points"? You think rezing an eight point greatsword is ok in this matchup? It's not. Also if they kill the longships instead of the greatswords that also stops the strengthening because then there is nothing to hit the greatswords.

that can happen, which is why you play around it... use your rez earlier so that you aren't leaving them targets that will brick your cards in hand. either r1 continuous recycle, or r2 press, and immediately on r3 if you go first. the same applies to mirror matches with NG slave drivers/grave robbers, or Nekkers with Ozzrel, etc. you don't even need to tech against it. but if you do, I suggest either fetches like ADC or Crach, or D-Bomb or Yrden since they rely on boosts for their points. weather works too but it's less effective IMO.

If your opponent plays first in round 3 you can't play that card first yourself.

Power rezing in round 3 is essentially the only way to win this matchup. Trying to use your rezes to win earlier is not realistic.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

When the opponent puts a 20 strength Greatsword back in the deck, you can play Crach or get a lucky Recon and such.

Ohhh now I follow. That could work of course but it's unlikely. My current deck doesn't have recon's and I usually have played Crach before round 3.

6 Times, yes. But not 6 times in one round. You can bait out the Viper Witchers, after which the opponent can only pass to prevent your engines building up strength.

Baiting isn't a good thing since by the time he has played his VW for that round you are very low on tempo and have nothing strengthened. You are liable to go down two cards trying to take round one.

 

[Void_Singer]

"A few rez points"? You think rezing an eight point greatsword is ok in this matchup? It's not. Also if they kill the longships instead of the greatswords that also stops the strengthening because then there is nothing to hit the greatswords.

it's more than ok, it beats their average and refreshes your engine. they've got 6 base units... and they're 5 and 2 pts on the board. you've got 6 rez's plus the units themselves. are you going to tell me you aren't running djenge or spear maidens either? and I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with the topic.

If your opponent plays first in round 3 you can't play that card first yourself.

if your opponent is playing first in r3 and you have a hand ful of rezz that's your fault for not pressing r2 and using some of them up.

Power rezing in round 3 is essentially the only way to win this matchup. Trying to use your rezes to win earlier is not realistic.

no, it isn't. bleeding r2 works quite well.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

it's more than ok, it beats their average and refreshes your engine. they've got 6 base units... and they're 5 and 2 pts on the board. you've got 6 rez's plus the units themselves. are you going to tell me you aren't running djenge or spear maidens either? and I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with the topic.

Rezing an eight strength Greatsword in a short round is absolutely terrible. The topic is that those VW's are ridiculous cards and coupled with graveyard hate it makes NG alchemy extremely difficult to play against as SK.

if your opponent is playing first in r3 and you have a hand ful of rezz that's your fault for not pressing r2 and using some of them up.

The point I was making is that if they are playing first they can get assire off to take away your one good power rez.

no, it isn't. bleeding r2 works quite well.

The entire point of bleeding is to get off a power rez in round 3 to win.

 

[liezldiezldee]

As other have said, without Assire/Vicovaros broken Skellige graveyard tactics couldn't be countered. Besides, back before the Midwinter patch Skellige really looked like the favourite faction of the devs

it still does

skellige has at least 3 viable rank 21 decks and monsters/northern realms are horrible in comparison to nilf/skellige/scoi

 

[Void_Singer]

Rezing an eight strength Greatsword in a short round is absolutely terrible. The topic is that those VW's are ridiculous cards and coupled with graveyard hate it makes NG alchemy extremely difficult to play against as SK. except Alchemy doesn't grave robbers so really all that's being done is bitching about a single deck that hard for SK to beat... well congrats, it's hard for most to beat.

The point I was making is that if they are playing first they can get assire off to take away your one good power rez.

and my point is you could have avoided the problem a round earlier... you just chose not to.

The entire point of bleeding is to get off a power rez in round 3 to win.

this is an example of playing by rote instead of adapting to the circumstance.... don't think about what you're supposed to do, start thinking about what you CAN do

 

[Bondonkadonk]

Viper witchers are usually played 6 times because of the ridiculous ointment card. That means the cards you want to strengthen are usually wiped out early so trying to get anything good in the graveyard to rez is very hard.

They CAN be played 6 times, sure, but actually it's rare that an alchemy deck will solely res vipers. A lot of the time just as much focus is given to using ointment on novices to stack up for ales, or even slavedriver if they need 2 cards on board for said ales. And as others have pointed out, ointments can only be used when something is actually in the GY in the first place, so pushing R1 can be a viable option, especially as alchemy will often rely on their ales if they're pushed, and then not have said ales for later. Pushing r1, bleeding them r2 is a viable option as alchemy don't always have many huge r3 plays beyond a possible trial of grasses (which I actually don't see as often any more) or a buffed up leader (which can be countered via pushing them or with mandrake).

That could work of course but it's unlikely. My current deck doesn't have recon's and I usually have played Crach before round 3.

Then maybe you need to change up your strategy depending on your opponent. You can't complain that someone's countering you and then continue to play exactly the same way over and over. That's true madness. ;P Don't just play Crach early because that's what you always do, consider saving him for this exact reason. Or if you do NEED crach as an early push, tech out a silver and consider ADC in it's place, or a bronze to put in a recon or two (and save at least one for later game). Holding on to both ADC and recon for later rounds isn't detrimental to your play style as they'll still pull something useful from deck, and if they do Assire r2 or r3, you can thank them for it, because you can use your freya's on something else and smugly pull out that beefy GS with recon or ADC. When not against Alchemy decks, both ADC and recon are great cards to have for a GS deck as they provide thinning, which will help you get to your r3 cards in later mulligans, PLUS ADC is likely to pull you your GS, or your spy if you have one. It's a fine card for any deck to carry.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

They CAN be played 6 times, sure, but actually it's rare that an alchemy deck will solely res vipers. A lot of the time just as much focus is given to using ointment on novices to stack up for ales, or even slavedriver if they need 2 cards on board for said ales. And as others have pointed out, ointments can only be used when something is actually in the GY in the first place, so pushing R1 can be a viable option, especially as alchemy will often rely on their ales if they're pushed, and then not have said ales for later. Pushing r1, bleeding them r2 is a viable option as alchemy don't always have many huge r3 plays beyond a possible trial of grasses (which I actually don't see as often any more) or a buffed up leader (which can be countered via pushing them or with mandrake).

It's not at all rare from my experience. I can push round one but I am so behind on tempo I have to go two cards down to take it, which isn't a smart move.

Then maybe you need to change up your strategy depending on your opponent. You can't complain that someone's countering you and then continue to play exactly the same way over and over. That's true madness. ;P Don't just play Crach early because that's what you always do, consider saving him for this exact reason. Or if you do NEED crach as an early push, tech out a silver and consider ADC in it's place, or a bronze to put in a recon or two (and save at least one for later game). Holding on to both ADC and recon for later rounds isn't detrimental to your play style as they'll still pull something useful from deck, and if they do Assire r2 or r3, you can thank them for it, because you can use your freya's on something else and smugly pull out that beefy GS with recon or ADC. When not against Alchemy decks, both ADC and recon are great cards to have for a GS deck as they provide thinning, which will help you get to your r3 cards in later mulligans, PLUS ADC is likely to pull you your GS, or your spy if you have one. It's a fine card for any deck to carry.

If there was a good counter then I would but there really isn't. I can't just throw recons into my deck on the off chance that situation comes up and I just happen to have a recon at the right time.

Sometimes I have to play Crach before round three because if I don't I won't have anything good to rez in round three, which is the exact situation I was in for my story in the OP.

What beefy GS? They wiped them all so they would never strengthen.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

and my point is you could have avoided the problem a round earlier... you just chose not to.

Not true at all.

except Alchemy doesn't grave robbers so really all that's being done is bitching about a single deck that hard for SK to beat... well congrats, it's hard for most to beat.

If they didn't this thread never would have been created. It's much harder to play against for an engine deck that uses the graveyard.

this is an example of playing by rote instead of adapting to the circumstance.... don't think about what you're supposed to do, start thinking about what you CAN do

Which isn't much at all

 

[Bondonkadonk]

Well apparently you have all the answers to every suggestion anyone ever makes. 5kMMR player, clearly. My suggestion- if you truly think GS decks get that easily beaten by alchemy- is to not play GS. Although considering GS as a card is sitting as the top 10 most played bronzes in a crach deck, with a 57% to 64% WR, I don't think they're doing terribly in ranked. Perhaps switch to a veteran deck instead if you wanna stick with SK, veteran decks fair much better as they have no engines.

I can't just throw recons into my deck on the off chance that situation comes up and I just happen to have a recon at the right time.

Also jfc, you act like adding recon into your deck is some crazy tech choice that's a dead card in every other situation. It pulls a bronze from your deck, it thins, it's a useful thing to have around even when not having Assire around. Almost every single vet deck on gwent db carries several recons and most of the top GS decks carry at least one recon too.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Also jfc, you act like adding recon into your deck is some crazy tech choice that's a dead card in every other situation. It pulls a bronze from your deck, it thins, it's a useful thing to have around even when not having Assire around. Almost every single vet deck on gwent db carries several recons and most of the top GS decks carry at least one recon too.

I do like recon as a card but my bronzes are super tight in that deck right now. I don't think I could take any bronze out to put them in.

I realize people want to make suggestions which is nice and I usually do the same thing when someone complains about something in the game. I don't think anything is going to change my mind about NG alchemy.