The Inconstant Gardener

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The Inconstant Gardener

I found this quest in the south of Toussaint from a letter on a bandit's body. I also received a 'Gardener's Key'. The quest tracker highlights the same area that I found the key and note. There are two doors that are locked and I've looted everything else in the vicinity. I'm guessing this is a quest bug that the key doesn't open the locked doors.

I don't feel like this is a system specific bug, so I'm not posting my specs, but I will if someone thinks it will help. This is on the PC, through Steam.
 
I don't feel like this is a system specific bug, so I'm not posting my specs, but I will if someone thinks it will help. This is on the PC, through Steam.
At this stage, we're treating almost all new issues as potential bugs. Please, report this through the official form, and, if possible, include a save of the situation. Thanks.
 
Sorry for the thread necro, but it's not a bug. Let's just say that the treasure is well hidden in plain sight.
If you need to know,
it's hidden behind 4 barrels in front of the shed with the stack of logs.
Putting this here in case the info is useful to others. I spent 20 minutes searching that area for the chest until I chanced upon it.
 
The main task in this quest is badly written: "Search the workshop and..." In english, a "workshop" is an indoor space, so I was trying to find a nearby building that could be the workshop, and I assumed the key I had just got was for the door to the building. I should have realized that the key in a "Hidden Treasure" quest is always (or just usually? Is there an exception?) a key for a chest.

I wonder if this is a translation issue, and the word used in place of "workshop" in other languages is clearer.
 
The main task in this quest is badly written: "Search the workshop and..." In english, a "workshop" is an indoor space, so I was trying to find a nearby building that could be the workshop, and I assumed the key I had just got was for the door to the building. I should have realized that the key in a "Hidden Treasure" quest is always (or just usually? Is there an exception?) a key for a chest.

I wonder if this is a translation issue, and the word used in place of "workshop" in other languages is clearer.
In English, a "workshop" is any established space used for manufacturing. It doesn't necessarily need to be inside. An open-air forge or lumber mill, for example, could still be called a workshop.
 
In English, a "workshop" is any established space used for manufacturing.

According to who? Which version of English?

Are you arguing that most English-speakers use a definition of "workshop" that doesn't specifically mean "indoors", or just that someone, somewhere exists who uses that broader definition?

I'd say it's a flaw/bug to not use the most common meaning of the term.

Now, I am only fluent in one particular dialect of English, so you could convince me that the word "workshop" is used differently in different countries.

An open-air forge or lumber mill, for example, could still be called a workshop.

Anything could be called a workshop, but it doesn't mean that it often is.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/workshop
 
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According to who? Which version of English?
The official versions of English, which are definitions established over the last 150 years or so, ever since the original Oxford Dictionary. These are the foundations of modern academic linguistics that govern communication, translations, etc. for spoken and written English. Changes are sometimes made, but it often takes a decade or more for those changes to be implemented, and they're hardly ever made simply because certain groupings of people systemically misuse a given word or use it in a vernacular context.

Thus, if a term is ever in question, it's either Merriam-Webster (for American English) or Oxford (for British English) that are consulted for official meanings. This is used in cooperation with the MLA and ALL (lay usage/education) or UCML and AMLUK (university/professional academics) for purposes of grammar, structure, syntax, etc.

There are, however, discrepancies between the two sources. Which means I need to now eat half of my argument, as the present Merriam-Webster definition is:
  1. a small establishment where manufacturing or handicrafts are carried on
  2. a usually brief intensive educational program for a relatively small group of people that focuses especially on techniques and skills in a particular field
The Oxford English definition is:
  1. a room or building where things are made or repaired with tools and machinery (like a car repair shop or carpenter's studio).
  2. an intensive, practical group session for learning skills or discussing a subject (e.g., a drama workshop or business training workshop).
Your argument would be completely valid for a British English translation issue but invalid for an American English translation.

These things are not settled through "commonly accepted" usage in various sub-national regions or cultures. That type of thing changes too arbitrarily and regularly to form any sort of standardized definition or usage, often shifting multiple times over a single generation. "Common use" considerations will always be referenced in a colloquial/vernacular sense.

Ain't language the funs?
 
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There are, however, discrepancies between the two sources. Which means I need to now eat half of my argument, as the present Merriam-Webster definition is:
  1. a small establishment where manufacturing or handicrafts are carried on
  2. a usually brief intensive educational program for a relatively small group of people that focuses especially on techniques and skills in a particular field

Are you saying that this definition (number 1, I presume) allows for outdoor spaces to be included in the term "workshop"?
I don't think I agree, as this shifts things to hinging on the definition of "establishment", which I don't think is meant/understood to be inclusive of outdoor spaces.

The Oxford English definition is:
  1. a room or building where things are made or repaired with tools and machinery (like a car repair shop or carpenter's studio).
  2. an intensive, practical group session for learning skills or discussing a subject (e.g., a drama workshop or business training workshop).
Your argument would be completely valid for a British English translation issue but invalid for an American English translation.

These things are not settled through "commonly accepted" usage in various sub-national regions or cultures. That type of thing changes too arbitrarily and regularly to form any sort of standardized definition or usage, often shifting multiple times over a single generation. "Common use" considerations will always be referenced in a colloquial/vernacular sense.

Ain't language the funs?

It sounds like you're saying that given a choice between:
  • wording A that 90% of english speakers would understand easily, but isn't proper english.
  • wording B that only 50% of english speakers would understand, but has the blessing of the English language police
that you think wording B would be better.

In this kind of situation, I would vote emphatically for wording A.

Any idea what kind of policy CDPR follows for these kind of questions? I suspect your answers are not meant to represent official CDPR policy.

P.S. Random related thing I've been wondering about -- Was Witcher 3 originally in English and then translated into other languages, or originally in another language (I'd guess Polish), and English was one of the languages it was translated into?
 
Are you saying that this definition (number 1, I presume) allows for outdoor spaces to be included in the term "workshop"?
I don't think I agree, as this shifts things to hinging on the definition of "establishment", which I don't think is meant/understood to be inclusive of outdoor spaces.
Yes, in American English, any space that's used for crafting/trade/manufacture in an outdoor space can still be considered a "workshop." So a phrase like, "a small workshop in the yard" would make perfect sense:
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Doesn't necessarily even need a roof, though things like that will often have a pavilion, awning, or tent over them. Country living in the States, especially from the 17th century onward. Lumber yards, forges, work tables used to fix farming equipment, glass blowing, etc. They're still called "workshops."

It sounds like you're saying that given a choice between:
  • wording A that 90% of english speakers would understand easily, but isn't proper english.
  • wording B that only 50% of english speakers would understand, but has the blessing of the English language police
Not really. Little distinctions like this are normally understandable between people that speak a form of English natively. For example, the expression "truck". It's known around the world that a truck is a large vehicle, usually a 4x4 with a bed used for hauling. However, the British term for that is "lorry," which doesn't even exist in modern American English, and "truck" would mean something you attach to a lorry, which in American English would be a "trailer."

It's a knot, and there are thousands of examples of such things. But whether I say "truck, lorry, or trailer" in a given context, pretty much any native English Speaker would be able to figure out immediately what is meant based on the context of the communication. It's usually when we get into areas/regions where English is not the native language that confusion or misinterpretation might result.

I know a common confusion point between American/British that I've seen personally numerous times is "pissed." The literal definition is the past-tense, vulgar form of "to urinate" in both American and British English, but there's a further vulgar definition in American which means "extremely upset" -- "Oh, he's completely pissed!" -- but in British, a second vulgar form means "extremely drunk" -- "Oh, he's completely pissed!" Hence, those statements would probably be translated to clarify what the intent is between American or British audiences based upon the intended context: angry or drunk?

^ That would probably be worth of consideration for a given English translation.

For the "workshop" thing, I'm not sure what consideration was made. Probably none, as I wouldn't view that as anything that needs to be clarified. I'd be confident that anyone from America, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. (native English speakers) would immediately realize "workshop" = tools, work tables, etc. Whether it's inside or outside would be moot.

If I have a buddy from England come over to the US, and they ask, "Do you have a tool bench?" to which I answer, "Yeah, the workshop's in the back yard," they won't walk out the door and balk to a stop in confusion when they see the workshop is just an open-air establishment. I'm not sure if British English has unique terms for it: "Workspace?" "Work yard?" Don't really know, but I doubt it would ever cause any significant confusion. Just a person here or there that might find it odd, like any word.
 
I'd be confident that anyone from America, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. (native English speakers) would immediately realize "workshop" = tools, work tables, etc. Whether it's inside or outside would be moot.
As a non-native speaker, I can comment that I would also immediately realize that.

I myself have had workshops both indoors and out. 😀
 
If I have a buddy from England come over to the US, and they ask, "Do you have a tool bench?" to which I answer, "Yeah, the workshop's in the back yard," they won't walk out the door and balk to a stop in confusion when they see the workshop is just an open-air establishment. I'm not sure if British English has unique terms for it: "Workspace?" "Work yard?"

And if you had answered "Yeah, the build-o-ram's in the backyard", they probably would have been able to figure what you meant pretty easily, even if they've never heard of "build-o-ram". Sometimes it doesn't matter if a particular word is unclear.

A scenario more comparable to the situation in this quest:
If I have a tool bench next to my garage, and there's a wrench inside the tool bench (in a drawer), and I ask my buddy to get me the wrench from the workshop, will they look inside the garage first, or will they look inside the tool bench? If the garage is locked, would they come to me and say "I need a key to get into your workshop"?

In a situation like this I wouldn't use "workshop" even if it's technically correct, because it just makes for confusion. (I've known some people IRL who seem to prefer technically-correct-but-confusing verbiage)

In the case in the quest there's a couple of buildings nearby. If the goal is to have them be red herrings to add difficulty to the quest, then the wording achieves that.

There seems to be a tendency here to argue about whether using "workshop" for an outdoor space is (completely) incorrect or not. I've let myself get sucked into that argument, and I'm tempted to continue arguing about it.

But really, it's kind of besides the point. The more important thing is that, while it may be technically correct (the best kind of correct!), I think it's wording that a lot of English speakers (such as the editors of Wiktionary, or the editors of the Oxford English) would find confusing or misleading. (I'd wager that the person who started this thread had the same confusion.) For that reason, I'd say it was not a good choice for this quest, somewhere where clarity and ease-of-understanding would (presumably) be one of the top priorities.

On the other hand, if this were an in-game piece of poetry (or maybe some of Dandelion's lyrics) that Geralt was trying to decipher, maybe it's appropriate to be a bit confusing.
 
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I'd say you now have a much better understanding of how "workshop" is used.

No other game that uses the term will ever be able to throw you off the track again!
 
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