The Issue of Spies

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I think spies could be conditional with respect to the current number of cards or coinflip, for example something in the lines of following options:
a) a spy is only a CA spy if you went first in R1, otherwise it's a no-ability 13 point ally unit. This is in my opinion also a fix for the blue coin disadvantage,
b) a spy is only a CA spy if you have less cards than your opponent, else it's a no-ability 13 point ally.
This would prevent the coin flip abuse (especially option a) while not killing the card and make the card comparable to glorious hunt (manticore/manticore venom depending on whether you're in the lead or not). Thus the only way 2CA could be gained is by making the opponent spend 2 cards after passing, which requires setup and skill, not just brainless spy abuse. Since they would be harder to play and not possible to gain 2CA, I also think they would be played less, thus diversifying the decks with more silvers...

I'd love to hear the community's opinion on this to see whether this suggestions are viable...
 
ThuleD;n10493062 said:
I think that's a bit too convoluted - why not simply put a new card into the first player's hand, instead of one of their starting cards? And since it is banished when swapped, you won't be able to store it in the deck for later use anyway.

As for the points... Probably raising it to 15 will be enough. In the current meta 13 feels a bit too easy to overcome with possible bronze chains of 14+ points. 15 will be more tricky to play., since most bronzes cap out their value at 14 and you will likely need to spend a silver to negate a 15 point spy, which imho will be fair, since the spy will always be in the first player's hand.

The problem is, whatever its power, a reveal deck can just reveal it's own, drain of power and then play it.
I hate going against spies, but I probably just need to learn to play them myself.

OP - If you go first and then they lay their spy, you know it's gonna be a long night, ether you give up the first and likely the opportunity to scorch any Ciri style finisher, or you go into the 2nd at a 2 card disadvantage. It's not always all she wrote but it's tough to overcome.
 
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South8;n10554942 said:
I think spies could be conditional with respect to the current number of cards or coinflip, for example something in the lines of following options: a) a spy is only a CA spy if you went first in R1, otherwise it's a no-ability 13 point ally unit. This is in my opinion also a fix for the blue coin disadvantage, b) a spy is only a CA spy if you have less cards than your opponent, else it's a no-ability 13 point ally. This would prevent the coin flip abuse (especially option a) while not killing the card and make the card comparable to glorious hunt (manticore/manticore venom depending on whether you're in the lead or not). Thus the only way 2CA could be gained is by making the opponent spend 2 cards after passing, which requires setup and skill, not just brainless spy abuse. Since they would be harder to play and not possible to gain 2CA, I also think they would be played less, thus diversifying the decks with more silvers..
a) It's still suspectible to "Have I drawn my spy or not" luck based nonsense. I'd rather prefer ThuleD's solution which is more consistent. That said the best solution I've seen so far to coinflip is still TrompeLaMort's or overcold_ice's. (I'm starting to feel like a spambot:) posting these links to every topic where coinflip comes up, but I think they're pretty awesome suggestions and deserve more publicity.)
b) I'm withThuleD and would prefer to keep CA being something that can only be earned by hard work and risk (Ciri, Ocvist, denying your opponents attempt to bleed you in round 2 - when he doesn't have a frickin spy to make it all safe, etc.). But it's only fair then if it's also not easily taken away.

To sum it all up I also think CA spies need to go away. You could have some more CA cards on Ciri/ocvist level difficulty (though wouldn't push that too far either).
As for 13 points spy I could probably support an idea of them providing some future reward in this or a subsequent round in exchange for the point boost you give to opponent. As long as it's not CA, cause it's just too OP.
 
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South8;n10554942 said:
b) a spy is only a CA spy if you have less cards than your opponent, else it's a no-ability 13 point ally.

I really like this one. You might also split card abilities then.

For example Cantarella could have abilities like this:
Look at two top cards of your deck. Put one on top and move the other to the bottom of your deck.
[Super cool ability name with tooltip saying it works only if you have less cards than your opponent]. Draw a card.
 
Should silver spies even exist?

What purpose do they serve other than round 2 "win moar" from abusing coinflip
 
Well...
I would not try a Kambi deck without Udalryk...
Its been a while I don't play Kambi, but I remember I had lots of trouble at the hour of winning a game even with Udalryk
And yes, I guess I could try using Ocvist and/or Ciri, but they are both easily counterable, the only card I could swap Ocvist with was Udalryk himself and my gold slots were used for control purposes, due to the average slow tempo plays I had with my bronces and silvers, as the goal was to invest in the Kambi win condition...
Appart of that, I guess I could live without them, despite I should get used to
 
Using spies, when you have a lot ongoing effects is also an option. When I ran 3 Reinforced Trebuchets + Yen:Con I always used Thaler to get an extra turn for them to deal damage.
 
ThuleD;n10540982 said:
I will point out once again - I am not against CA designs, they are needed for the overall health of the game. But in their current form they are cancerous - they limit design space, make coinflip even worse (though we regretably saw no effort to fix it in the first place), they are boring and pretty much essential in nearly every deck. We can have more fun CA designs, but spies need to be gone first.

How would you design a "more fun" CA card?

I feel spies in the current meta are much more tolerable than a few patches ago (Emhyr playing spy, SC spy, pick up spy, that was ridiculous and create spy was even worse). Still, it's very disheartening to drypass round 1 because of blue coin and opponent leads with spy in round 2 while you don't have your own spy.
 
Jeydra;n10630231 said:
How would you design a "more fun" CA card?...

Ocvist and Ciri sitting on a tree...

They feel way better now, but still auto include in like 90% of the decks I meet, so they are still a really big problem.
 
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