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The Lodge of Sorceresses(all spoilers)

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The Lodge of Sorceresses(all spoilers)

  • Philippa Eilhart

    Votes: 120 29.9%
  • Margarita Laux-Antille

    Votes: 49 12.2%
  • Keira Metz

    Votes: 88 21.9%
  • Sabrina Glevissig

    Votes: 10 2.5%
  • Sheala de Tancarville

    Votes: 19 4.7%
  • Francesca Findabair

    Votes: 27 6.7%
  • Ida Emean

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • Assire var Anahid

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • Fringilla Vigo

    Votes: 76 19.0%

  • Total voters
    401
Dan_Florian_Eremia;n10918976 said:
I don't believe for a second in the altruistic objectives of Phillipa. Firstly she claims she works for the good of magic users, but she excludes half of them (male users) while taking decisions that affect them all, and ultimately means exile or death at the stake for most. She manifest indifference for the lives of non users and is personally responsible, with the rest of the Lodge, for the death of countless civilians. Secondly she recruits the head of the only sorceresses Academy, basically politicizing an institution that needed to remain neutral, assuring an army of future spies or war mages in the process. Yeah Margarita joined for the good of the students, but who decided what was good for them? Look at Cantarella, going by her letters she was clearly unhappy with being forced to act as a spy by Assire instead of continuing her studies.
If to all this you add the Lodges actual actions and methods: starting and controlling wars, assassination, blackmail, betraying friends or ex-lovers,false accusations etc. it's clear why some people don't like them. True this are the methods of most politicians in that world, but how many people like the rest of the politicians in the books? The Lodge as an entity is no more good or bad, and definitely not more altruistic than any political entity in that universe.
Individually there are actually altruistic people that joined for noble reasons like Margarita, Triss good people that we don't know why they joined but also cutthroat people like Phillipa and Francesca.
Ultimately even the good ones are still sorceresses, and mages in general are described to be more amoral than regular people, typical to almost all the people in power, and are shown to be capable to do plenty of unethical "bad" things for their benefit or for the benefit of the Lodge.
Rita didn't "only" join for the good of her students, else she wouldn't say what she said in the books, they all joined for the same reason, and the reason why men is excluded is also stated.
"Because they are men." said Philippa. "The organization, which I have mentioned should be exclusively of women....." ...." This smacks of feminist chauvinism." sneered Sabrina Glevissig. "Especially from your mouth, Philippa, after your change of .... sexual orientation. I have nothing against men. in fact, I love men, and life without them I can not imagine. But ... After a moment's thought ... I believe this to be a wise concept. Men are mentally unstable, too sensitive to their emotions and you can not count on them in times of crisis." "It is true." admitted margarita Laux-Antille calmly. "We constantly compare the results of the Aretuza adepts to the boys from the school of Ban ARd and the comparison falls invariably in the favour of the girls. Magic requires patience, delicacy, intelligence, common sense and tenacity. It needs on to bear calmly and humbly their setbacks and failures. Men lose their ambition. They always want what they know is impossible and unattainable, and they do not notice what is possible."

Another important thing to note is that the lodge doesn't stop you from being political.

Outside of this room, be who you want, and serve whom you want and for whatever reason you choose to, as faithfully as you wish. but when the convention is gathered, we will deal exclusively with magic and its future."

I feel it's bad to just brand every person as bad and good, not looking at why the lodge is there, motives etc.

Dan_Florian_Eremia;n10918976 said:
Regarding Triss she is shown to start doubting the Lodge since the end of the books. It seems totally in character to me, considering also her POV chapters in Blood of Elves, that she would turn against the Lodge.
I'm sorry, but I've not seen that mentioned anywhere, if you could quote that from somewhere I would greatly appreciate it. I've the complete opposite reaction with her, and she is far more loyal to the lodge than Yennefer, even participating in the coup.

Dan_Florian_Eremia;n10918976 said:
Yennefer in my opinion refuses the Lodge because she doesn't agree with their plans for Ciri, not because she is apolitical or because she doesn't agree with their methods or the rest of their objectives.
She didn't have trouble being involved with the experiments with the Elder Blood or being a part of the Council.
I think you're wrong on that regard, she flees to find Ciri because she has probably the strongest motherly instinct, to find and save her daughter. When she finds her she doesn't try to run away from the lodge, but follows Ciri to them and seem accepted with the fact of Ciri having a child with the prince of Kovir. She is not a-political, but she values Ciri above that and does everything for her. That said she would def' not team up with Nilfgaard, even to find her daughter, just like she didn't want to team up with Vilgefortz. She knows they want to use her in a way that she does not want to, and therefore she goes against it. She did however plan on Ciri to become a sorceress, which was why she took her to Thanedd in the first place.

"'This Lodge,' she said at last in a firm voice, 'is to decide the fate of the world. So, this Lodge must reflect the world. Here, equilibrium and wisdom does not always mean cold and selfish, calculation and vileness, and sentimentality is not always naive. On one hand, iron discipline and on the other responsibility, resistance to violence, gentleness and trust. Cool reason... And heart.'"
Philippa casting her vote at the end of LoTL.
 

Deemonef

User
Ah... thanx dudes. It's been a while since I played Witcher 2.
But the rest I said, is true I think :)

Also to add: As some here said, it's about what you see: "The greater good" "only one person (like Ciri)" etc. to like, dislike the lodge... not hate.
Another problem for me with the lodge is, that Philippa is the "head" and I don't like Philippa that much since her actions at the end of the first novel with Rience and Geralt in Oxenfurt. Helping Rience to escape, knowing that Vilgefortz is at the other end of the portal and never said it etc. That was the moment I started to dislike her and this never really changed. Maybe a bit at the end of the 5th novel where she allowed Ciri to visit Geralt one last time... but to be honest, this whole scene was so terrible. This was like a hostage-taking and you allow your hostage to go to the bathroom... you are still a hostage of people who want to take away your freedom ;)
And on top: The lodge was the cause for the moment I really started to dislike Triss. Everybody who read the books know what I mean: The moment on Skellige with Yennefer and the megascope... god I hated this moment, and I hated Triss and Philippa at this moment XD

Yeah, Yennefer went away from the lodge (or never wanted to be a part of it) to save Ciri cause she don't want what the lodge wants to do with Ciri.
I don't know if she really accepted what the lodge will do to Ciri at the last pages of The Lady of the Lake, but she went to the lodge with Ciri cause Ciri wanted it that way. I think if Ciri didn't wanted to go to the lodge, Yennefer would still try to protect her from the hands of the lodge sorceresses ;)

And yepp, I also can't remember when Triss doubted the lodge in the books. She was always for the lodge and followed this way.
 
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ooodrin

User
Deemonef;n10919345 said:
And yepp, I also can't remember when Triss doubted the lodge in the books. She was always for the lodge and followed this way.
She never doubted them enough to leave in the books, that is the part of games' storyline, but, to be fair, she confessed this to Nenneke:

‘I feel lied to, cheated, robbed,’ said Triss Merigold.
Nenneke did not answer for a long time, she gazed from the terrace overlooking the temple’s garden, where the priestesses and novices devoted themselves to the spring works.
‘You made a choice,’ she said finally. ‘You chose your path, Triss. Your own destiny. Voluntarily. This is no time to grieve.’
‘Nenneke,’ the enchantress looked down. ‘I cannot really tell you more that what I have said. Believe me and forgive me.’
‘Who am I to forgive? What benefits will you receive from my forgiveness?’
‘I can see,’ Triss burst out, ‘your eyes looking at me! You and your priestesses. I can see their eyes asking me the question. What are you doing here, sorceress? Why are you not there with Iola, Eurneid, Katje, Myrrha? Jarre?’
‘You’re exaggerating, Triss.’
The sorceress stared into the distance, into the woods beyond the temple’s walls, to the distant smoke of fires. Nenneke was silent, thinking, she too was far away. Where the war was raging and bloody. She thought of the girls sent there.
‘They,’ Triss said, ‘refused me.’
Nenneke was silent.
‘They refused me everything, ‘Triss repeated. ‘So clever, so reasonable, so logical … How could I not believe them when they explained that there are important and less important issues, and those that are less important should be given up without a second thought, to sacrifice them for the more important without a shadow of grief? That is does not make sense to save people that you know and love, because they are just individuals and the fate of these individuals are irrelevant to the fate of the world. That there is no sense for the struggle in defense of honor and ideals, for they are empty concepts? That the real battle for the fate of the world is somewhere else, and will be fought somewhere else? And I feel robbed. Robbed of the possibility of committing follies. I cannot go madly hurrying after Ciri to help her, I cannot run like crazy to save Geralt and Yennefer. Not only that, there is a war, which you have sent your girls … A war, that Jarre fled to and I am refused the possibility to even stand on a hill. To once again stand on a hill. Knowing this time, I’d made the right decision.’
‘Everyone has their decisions and everyone has their hills, Triss,’ the priestess said quietly. ‘Everyone. You cannot escape your own.’
 
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Deemonef

User
ooodrin;n10919390 said:
She never doubted them enough to leave in the books, that is the part of games' storyline, but, to be fair, she confessed this to Nenneke:
I kinda liked that part of the book... okay, I love all of the books content ;)
And for me Triss redeemed herself a bit in my eyes in Riva at the end of the books. Liked that... didn't liked what CDPR did to her but this is written on another sheet.
 
ooodrin;n10919390 said:
She never doubted them enough to leave in the books, that is the part of games' storyline, but, to be fair, she confessed this to Nenneke:
Thanks for the quote. That is exactly what I was referring at. And if you add to this all the new information she received during the games, and her growing relationship with Geralt, is totally conceivable to me that she would turn against the Lodge in the games.

TheSorceress;n10919219 said:
power, and are shown to be capable to do plenty of unethical "bad" things for their benefit or for the benefit of the Lodge. Rita didn't "only" join for the good of her students, else she wouldn't say what she said in the books, they all joined for the same reason, and the reason why men is excluded is also stated.
Yeah, this is the same reason used to not allow women or black people to vote for centuries. In this case male mages didn't have any input into the decisions that ultimately got them killed or exiled if lucky. They also wouldn't have benefited at all if the Lodge would have been successful, against all the Lodges claims of doing this for Magic.

TheSorceress;n10919219 said:
I think you're wrong on that regard, she flees to find Ciri because she has probably the strongest motherly instinct, to find and save her daughter. When she finds her she doesn't try to run away from the lodge, but follows Ciri to them and seem accepted with the fact of Ciri having a child with the prince of Kovir. She is not a-political, but she values Ciri above that and does everything for her. That said she would def' not team up with Nilfgaard, even to find her daughter, just like she didn't want to team up with Vilgefortz. She knows they want to use her in a way that she does not want to, and therefore she goes against it. She did however plan on Ciri to become a sorceress, which was why she took her to Thanedd in the first place.
You say that I am wrong and then you agree with me? To be clear I said that Yennefer refused the Lodge because of Ciri, not because she was apolitical. You seem to say the same thing, unless I understood you wrong.
 
Deemonef;n10919417 said:
I kinda liked that part of the book... okay, I love all of the books content ;)
And for me Triss redeemed herself a bit in my eyes in Riva at the end of the books. Liked that... didn't liked what CDPR did to her but this is written on another sheet.
I never really liked the last book though, I felt it was more a "I need to wrap this story up fast"-ish feeling I got from it, especially so the ending. I don't especially like when you jump in time, it takes me out of the story to know what happened later, like the small texts that would state what would happen to the characters later really fucked it up for me, not only that but the ending in itself.

Especially how they're like "Geralt died, oh wait, jinx" And then does like "she's actually able to summon a portal to another dimension where they're going to live happily ever after, psyked!" But then again, I was never a fan of Ciri's timetraveling, I like that she was more powerful, but the moment they put in the time travel stuff was the moment it quickly went downhill, especially the ending, I felt so many plots were still not closed properly but they just opted out for the "nuclear ending" bang, it's over, the end. But I did really enjoy the early books, felt they were very good, but hate the last one, and somewhat too the 2nd last.
 

Deemonef

User
I have to admitt, the thing with Ciri's power was... really a "huuuge power up" for her. No wonder why she never fought in the books with that power, cause every fight would be over ina few seconds.
And no wonder why this power was really, really degraded in the last game.
As for me, I liked the ending with Geralt and Yennefer, tastes are different, but I can see why Sapkwoski used this kind of ending for the two lovers.
 

Vedamir

User
I like all sorceress except the main one - Philippa. I can't get how did she become a lesbian? May be it's her wish of beeang a leader.
I think it's not right, cause wizardry and witchcaft are very woman professions. They reveal the essence of women. I thing only female-warrior can be lesbian, but not a mage.
 
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Deemonef

User
Vedamir;n10961654 said:
I like all sorceress except the main one - Philippa. I can't get how did she become a lesbian? May be it's her wish of beeang a leader.
I think it's not right, cause wizardry and witchcaft are very woman professions. They reveal the essence of women. I thing only female-warrior can be lesbian, but not a mage.
She become lesbian cause she wanted it that way. Don't see any problem here.