The loot system is garbage

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Maybe interesting the view of a game developer (from minute 58 is relevant):


PS: always good to remember, that in all videos is trying to "don´t bitch too much, but I did it better"... but interesting to hear his comments nevertheless.
I think those who find the system weird think too much about that. For me, if it's white/green (common/uncommon), if in addition it has a red arrow to the right of the icon, no reflexion is needed (even less to look "stats" closely). it's either it stays on the ground, or it's dismantled/sold immediately.

Besides I ask myself the question, he has Dying Night in his inventory but keeps a "poor" common Lexington equipped... o_O

If I could provide some advices :
What the hell...!
Equip your Dying Night right away, upgrade it as much as you can. And oh yeah, you will lack of components quickly. So instead of spend your 20K eddies to buy some at weapon sellers, dismantles all your "garbage/useless" Lexington guns (and to loose your time to look their "stats"). You will see, all of these garbage items will become very useful.
 
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I think those who find the system weird think too much about that. For me, if it's white/green (common/uncommon), if in addition it has a red arrow to the right of the icon, no reflexion is needed (even less to look "stats" closely). it's either it stays on the ground, or it's dismantled/sold immediately.

Its kinda simple really... All white/green loot gets sold (particularly weapons), blue and better is either used or dismantled for crafting parts. This because the rarer stuff doesn't actually give that much more money than the white/green, weirdly enough.

The economy of the player is extremely dependant on selling junk loot. Its... functional, but I just feel this sort junk collection/selling is very immersionbreaking in a game that advertises itself as immersive. It was the exact same thing in the Witcher.

I find CDPR games super-weird, almost schitzofrenic in how they have very high quality immersive elements and cinematics and extremely non-immersive elements, and they are supposed to go hand-in-hand? It doesn't quite work that way in my opinion. Whats worse, its like the people in charge think that some of this stuff (like collecting trash, levels, "tutorial area", etc) is a REQUIRED ELEMENT OF A ROLE-PLAYING GAME. I think they just need to ditch their console-oriented way of thinking as soon as possible...

Like, even if I totally destroy a mission site and murder everyone with explosives, machineguns and in general as loud as possible, I still get stealth xp for dunking the bodies in trash cans. Ok. I dont know what immersion got to do with it.
 
Besides I ask myself the question, he has Dying Night in his inventory but keeps a "poor" common Lexington equipped... o_O

If I could provide some advices :
What the hell...!
Equip your Dying Night right away, upgrade it as much as you can. And oh yeah, you will lack of components quickly. So instead of spend your 20K eddies to buy some at weapon sellers, dismantles all your "garbage/useless" Lexington guns (and to loose your time to look their "stats"). You will see, all of these garbage items will become very useful.
Well, I think in the 3 videos he has he only used once the crafting/upgrading to test it he is just kind of testing game systems not min-maxing... his point actually says something along the lines "if all this pistols at the end are for selling or dismantling for components, why bother to generate slightly different variants at all?"
Its kinda simple really... All white/green loot gets sold (particularly weapons), blue and better is either used or dismantled for crafting parts. This because the rarer stuff doesn't actually give that much more money than the white/green, weirdly enough.

The economy of the player is extremely dependant on selling junk loot. Its... functional, but I just feel this sort junk collection/selling is very immersionbreaking in a game that advertises itself as immersive.
Don´t really know, I mean loot and inventory management is kind of RPG mechanic since ever (Josh Sawyer says that 1st RPG where all enemies drop loot is "Pool of Radiance") and is kind of "realistic" that if you kill somebody that corpse has some objects you can loot... my only problem is that actually loot doesn´t serve to economy at all because in this game you have a dual economy system: you get enough money in Gigs and assaults in progress, that for me was always enough.

I always pick the dismantle perk as soon as I can, because even if you can loose some money I don´t feel a difference at all...even the crafting I didn´t used it that much, in normal for sure you don´t need crafting at all and in very hard just for upgrading some weapon.

This is in contrast with other games where many times you don´t get any money (or caps,or gold,or chips or whatever currency the game uses) in many of the quests/activities and you rely a lot on the loot that you can obtain for character progression.
 
Its kinda simple really... All white/green loot gets sold (particularly weapons), blue and better is either used or dismantled for crafting parts. This because the rarer stuff doesn't actually give that much more money than the white/green, weirdly enough.

The economy of the player is extremely dependant on selling junk loot. Its... functional, but I just feel this sort junk collection/selling is very immersionbreaking in a game that advertises itself as immersive. It was the exact same thing in the Witcher.

I find CDPR games super-weird, almost schitzofrenic in how they have very high quality immersive elements and cinematics and extremely non-immersive elements, and they are supposed to go hand-in-hand? It doesn't quite work that way in my opinion. Whats worse, its like the people in charge think that some of this stuff (like collecting trash, levels, "tutorial area", etc) is a REQUIRED ELEMENT OF A ROLE-PLAYING GAME. I think they just need to ditch their console-oriented way of thinking as soon as possible...

Like, even if I totally destroy a mission site and murder everyone with explosives, machineguns and in general as loud as possible, I still get stealth xp for dunking the bodies in trash cans. Ok. I dont know what immersion got to do with it.
I don't think it's "CDPR Games".
Most of games who I name RPG have all some sort of looting system and mostly even more "useless" than "CDPR Games". You can dismantle "junk" when you want and drop points are literally everywhere.
his point actually says something along the lines "if all this pistols at the end are for selling or dismantling for components, why bother to generate slightly different variants at all?"
The loot follow your level, so the stats change a little bit each time you level up.
And to not loot the exact same weapon in each enemy. Like you can find an awesome "Mox" shotgun in every quality (or a gold plated one). So it's better to loot and keep the one you like (if you like it) and upgrade it, than a "basic" black one. In short, just for the look.
The same as clothes, there are many variant of each type :)
 
And to not loot the exact same weapon in each enemy. Like you can find an awesome "Mox" shotgun in every quality. So it's better to loot and keep this one (if you like it) than a "basic" black one. In short, just for the look.
The same as clothes, there are many variant of each type
Indeed, but I think he looks at it from a game systems perspective where all can be black and white and a ASCII file.
The "aesthetics" is probably a different department in his head (also in my head actually, don´t bother that much for the look). Looting the exact "stats" in each weapon, even if the skin is different in each one would not make a difference I think .
 
Indeed, but I think he looks at it from a game systems perspective where all can be black and white and a ASCII file.
The "aesthetics" is probably a different department in his head (also in my head actually, don´t bother that much for the look). Looting the exact "stats" in each weapon, even if the skin is different in each one would not make a difference I think .
In view of damages, gameplay,... obviously nothing change at all.
But in the hands, for me at least, it's way better to use the Mox's Shotgun, than a random black one (this shotgun is absolutely amazing).
It's a bit like clothes, why choose a "camouflage" jacket instead of the "black" one who have the same stats ? Just for the look, and when you loot both, they have the same stats, everybody is "happy" :)
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For example, the two weren't looted to the same level but were upgraded to level 50, so they have almost the same stats.
763a7941-ab7a-437d-84e9-95c5e87d2360.PNGf4065317-b366-413f-abaa-67c8f3cecb56.PNG
Yes, when you shoot an enemy he dies in exactly the same way, no difference at all. If you don't care about the look of the gun, it's totally useless to loot one than another who have the same stats but just a different look. But if you're like me and you are offered a choice, I just like to use the weapon in the color that I prefer (or that goes with my outfit). It is unnecessary, so essential. It's the same for the jacket that I wear, I have all the versions available... useless but awesome :)
 
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I'm very happy to see this thread back alive. The problem is it's completely useless, and I'm not only talking about cp77.
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Maybe interesting the view of a game developer (from minute 58 is relevant):


PS: always good to remember, that in all videos is trying to "don´t bitch too much, but I did it better"... but interesting to hear his comments nevertheless.
Thank you for sharing this video.
 
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You're welcome.
He has 3 videos of cp2077 and he comments also combat,enemy AI if you are interested (and just jump around videos if you find boring to see other people play).
He also has few videos in gamedev conferences doing postmortems of his own videogames or design philosophies . Not necesarily you might agree with him or like his videogames/decisions but is interesting the way he reasons as a game developer (i would say deep roots in tabletop systems).
 
Tbh I've resorted to this system for dealing with loot (from mid-game onwards):
  • Everything that can be dismantled gets dismantled without even looking at stats except:
    • Iconic Items
    • 150-credit junk items
    • Cyberware mods (I keep max one of each in my stash in case I can use it later)
    • Legendary mods & items that contain legendary mods (which I can retrieve once I hit Tech 16)
  • I wish that 'trash consumables' could be dismantled. They can't, so every now and then I go to a drop point and sell all of that off, just to free up inventory space
But - apart from that I indiscriminately pick up everything I find without looking at it. From around mid-game onward all of my equipment is "better than almost any non-iconic" with virtually no chance of picking up random loot that's superior. For clothing that means I've purchased legendary items with the max possible mod slots. For weapons that means I'm using an iconic.

Generally speaking there's not much point selling things if you plan to put a few points into Tech. If you're breaking items down into even common/uncommon components, then you can use those to craft Nekomata rifles. If you need money, Nekomatas sell for much better prices than the items you broke down. Get the "gain more components from dismantling" perk early to make this even more efficient. Plus, if you hit Tech 16 you can also use the tonne of cheap components from dismantling junk to craft high-level components for end-game gear.

That system is a bit cynical because it really just reduces all pick-ups to components. There's only an occasional need to actually sell valuable junk & consumables, plus occasionally stash iconics, cyberware mods & iconic mods. But it also means I'm not spending lots of time dealing with my inventory. As I hit my carry capacity I go and break everything down and then get back into the game.

I suppose the loot system is moderately interesting early-game because there's a decent chance of picking up something useful. That makes it worth reading the stats and comparing what you picked up. But past about level 20, that's roughly when I switched to that system above. Also, the game isn't hard enough to force you to optimise for every last DPS/armour point.

There's a separate conversation to be had about how the difficulty scaling (how much damage is inflicted upon enemies/how much damage they inflict upon you) is too closely linked to the character level and not the gear. That means that the gear isn't really so important anyway. The difference between shooting a bad guy with a 150 DPS weapon and a 200 DPS weapon (when V is the same level) feels less important than the difference between a level 15 V and a level 20 V shooting the same bad guy with the exact same 150 DPS weapon.
 
You're welcome.
He has 3 videos of cp2077 and he comments also combat,enemy AI if you are interested (and just jump around videos if you find boring to see other people play).
He also has few videos in gamedev conferences doing postmortems of his own videogames or design philosophies . Not necesarily you might agree with him or like his videogames/decisions but is interesting the way he reasons as a game developer (i would say deep roots in tabletop systems).
I'll definitely take a look at it. I'm a big fan of GDC conferences.

Btw, I totally agree with what he said in that video.
 
There is just simply too much. I dont want to even pick anything up any more because its overwhelming and I dont care about what im collecting - I mean the "junk section" it feels like im literally just scavanging garbage. And the guns - why does literally every guy drop a gun? I have to stop on literally every kill to see if maybe the dropped a gun stronger than one of mine, and of course I cant check as I pick them up everytime so end up with 10 identacle guns in my inventory I have to scan through to find out what ones I need to scrap. Yeah scrap, because vendors are useless. Why do they exist? There isnt any point in buying guns, or food or drinks. And the health boosters? I pick up to many to use.

And the clothing - why do I only pick up clothing items that enemies werent wearing? Why is there just a random chance for them to drop a seemingly random clothing item.

The whole entire system is just totally garbage and by far the worst thing bar the bugs.
Yup...one of the things i absoultely hate is the loot system in this game. At low levels we can find some of the best legendaries to start 1-3 shotting enemies. Any legendary item should come at the later levels of the game not level 1. Also its complete stupidity at how lets say at lvl 5, i kill a mob and pick up a gun that I cant use until lvl 12 so I hold on to it. But when i reach lvl 12 ive already found weapons that far surpass the lvl 12 gun that i kept in my bag. The attributes on weapons we pick up depend on our current level at the time we pick up that weapon....yeah thats stupid. That creates to much useless loot in the game.
 
This boils down to self will. And it's these kinds of complaints that have given rise to the dumbing down of newer games and beloved series( elder scrolls ). 1. you don't have to loot everything. 2. You don't have to craft; lack of developers holding your hand and lack of self will doesn't mean crafting should be removed or loot should be toned down. 3. Find a weapon or weapons you like and stick with it; if you're constantly swapping for a better weapon and then having to spend points in said weapons tree to be efficient with it making your playthrough a mess, that's on you not the developers or the loot system. It's a role playing game, play a role that has more self control.

I do agree with you on clothing and have addressed it in other threads. Essentially cdpr created 4-5 body types then 1 player type and then created two separate wardrobes for these body types which on top of doubling their workload for no reason was absolutely idiotic.

And vendors, as far as selling items to, are useless as well.

I know it's good to come here and vent, but I'm afraid we got the game we're gonna get. Clothing system will remain the same, vendors will remain the same, crafting will remain the same and loot will remain the same( I'm okay with this one ).
 
This boils down to self will. And it's these kinds of complaints that have given rise to the dumbing down of newer games and beloved series( elder scrolls ). 1. you don't have to loot everything. 2. You don't have to craft; lack of developers holding your hand and lack of self will doesn't mean crafting should be removed or loot should be toned down. 3. Find a weapon or weapons you like and stick with it; if you're constantly swapping for a better weapon and then having to spend points in said weapons tree to be efficient with it making your playthrough a mess, that's on you not the developers or the loot system. It's a role playing game, play a role that has more self control.
There's a problem with that there's no stat available AFAIK for crafting costs to level 1 to 50, even if multipliers stay the same and these are subject to change with patches, then what is the optimal damage output. Game can be played exactly like you wrote, did that during my first playthrough and that V had Tech perhaps 5 or 7 and it's actually sort of... whatever people think roleplaying is, I don't know, but it was a big deal for me to be able to play practical mercenary who isn't interested about shiny items, opposite is true too, it's a world where everyone tries to be something.

I don't think there there were that much debate about loot system if players had convenient way for player to plan their economy ahead, I need this much credits, I need that much components and then compartmentalize that somewhere from content that is actually interesting as looting and that is secondary for some of us.
 
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The economy in this game is garbage and makes it unnecessarily difficult to earn lots of money even with modest effort. And I'm not saying the crafting system is perfect, it's not, I just think too many gamers these days want their hands held and restricted at the same time.
 
I think to a degree you're going to have two schools of thought about what "A good economy" looks like.

I remember when I was playing through Diablo 2 (which at the time was the gold standard of ARPGs) I'd spend days upon days of grinding (Nightmare Meph runs IIRC) in order to get my hands on a Buriza-Do Kyanon (for those who know, yes, one of my chars was a Burizazon). That had an economy which meant that the rarest items - those which would actually open up whole new play-styles - were indeed incredibly rare and required extreme grinding to acquire. Also, the only items which were certain to appear at specific points in the game were quest items. Literally everything else was pure RNG.

Since 1999, the popular opinion on good loot economies has changed somewhat and now what Diablo 2 did would be frowned-upon by many. On the plus side, games like CP77 are less grind-y because all of the really important loot is fixed to specific locations & quests, it never turns up randomly. That means that it's pretty easy to get your hands on the Best In Slot equipment for any given level/build because all you need do is go for the right quests to grab it. Of course in an Open World game you do the quests in whatever order you want (except maybe for difficulty scaling). A side-effect of that is that once you've got that premium equipment, literally everything else you find is trash in comparison.

That's what leads to behaviours like my bulk-dismantling of everything I find without even reading the stats. As an example, you can pick up Lizzie pretty early in the game - very early if you stick to main story and don't go side-questing like I do. Let's assume for a moment that you don't want to use a silencer (Lizzie's only notable limitation). Once you're holding Lizzie, no other pistol you see from random drop is going to be worth looking at. May as well just smash everything else (non-iconic at least) up for parts.

A game that (IMO) does loot well: Grim Dawn
I think that Grim Dawn (including its expansions) struck a good balance there. It has a crafting system which allows you to get your hands on most of the items that could drop as random loot (and quite a few that can't). So, if you're looking for something in particular, most of the time you don't need to just grind for "that one run which gets the drop you needed". You can just keep playing the game and progressing and you'll find plenty of components and recipes as you play. Then, once you've got enough, you can transmute those into the thing you needed.

It's also got a "reputation" system with which you can unlock some powerful unique gear that may be purchased directly from vendors (once you achieve the required reputation). Finally there are a few items which can only drop from the RNG, but (if you have the Forgotten Gods expansion) you can play through the Shattered Realm which are essentially condensed/pure grinding runs. In SR runs there are no loot drops at all, but after you have played through a realms ("shards" in game terminology), you can exit and "cash in" to claim a bundle of mega-chests full of high-value rewards, better than even primary boss-fights in the main game.

Another thing it has is a "loot filter" implemented in the game options. So you can make the game just stop showing loot items that you're not interested in. That way your character can focus on only picking up the highest-value/most important stuff. Additionally anything that "you always want to be picking up" (money, components, consumables) can be set to auto-pickup.
 
Another thing it has is a "loot filter" implemented in the game options. So you can make the game just stop showing loot items that you're not interested in. That way your character can focus on only picking up the highest-value/most important stuff. Additionally anything that "you always want to be picking up" (money, components, consumables) can be set to auto-pickup.
A Filter System is obvious. Applying it to the current Ocular Implant/Mod system is even more obvious. But most obvious remains the narrowing down of access to the plethora of attention grabbing markers littered across the screen, especially when more than half are not important, and in fact grouped under the Junk section of the inventory.

All in all, this game leaves a lot to be desired. Though, it is a good business decision to design releases in this manner.
 
For me, the elder scrolls 3 morrowind did Ioot and vendors correctly. You could raid a dungeon for high valued items and use the bartering system to recieve high payouts. CP attempts to mimic, maybe indirectly, this system but seems to miss the mark a bit.
 
The economy in this game is garbage and makes it unnecessarily difficult to earn lots of money even with modest effort. And I'm not saying the crafting system is perfect, it's not, I just think too many gamers these days want their hands held and restricted at the same time.
I'm in disadvantage as someone who has enjoyed the story enough to make 3 playthroughs each ending with level 50 character, I have no experience and good reference point based on my own experience how loot system works for most players out there whom finish main story at level 25-35 perhaps.

Loot / crafting is also more complicated. There's a factor that there's no universal mechanic, what we think is a matter of taste might be driven by how our brains are wired. This can go unnoticed for gamers as people drawn to certain things form their own group and there's nothing wrong with that, but groups may not be aware that certain things may not feel rewarding to others.

For gaming industry I think, they look for certain predictability, groups that are likely to buy DLC. It also looks like certain mechanics sort of has to be there as they are so widely spread feature that people have come to expect them.

No one is forcing anyone to play any game but with products like the Outer Worlds and Cyberpunk 2077 balancing is important if industry really wants to find new audiences. There's nothing wrong enjoying Mass Effect games or old Deus Ex game, but let's be honest, their limited set works for wide audience, but they are also limited by their set. People who are teens now, whom have played those games may return to them later and find new discoveries. Scenarios in Outer Worlds go way back in history and commentary goes as far as losing shared reality, it's absolutely a gem and very relevant to these days but also because matters like that tend to always be there.

CP 2077 then does quite a few things like this and this. Things that engage people like me and frankly, don't expect from video game. Loot and crafting, for me they can be whatever as long as they don't steal my focus. This goes back to my earlier reply, I could play as practical merc and did that also on my 3rd playthrough, I only knew that was really possible after I had completed the game.
 
Yeah the clothing drops are generally pretty shit. And the clothing stores. It is amazing how LUCKY you have to be to get certain items. Why is it designed that way? It's like gambling or something :/
 
Why is it designed that way? It's like gambling or something :/
Yep, the random slot number on loot and the random clothes version in shops are pretty annoying :(
(it could be scalled on your level. No way to buy an common jacket at level 40 or higher... And even more for 10K eddies)
 
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