The problem with Skellige

[KenLBlack]

@Breli - I understand your point, which you you also cover in that earlier post (which is here so people can see it in the proper context). I understand--especially from that earlier post--that you are not necessarily defending SK so much as you are stating is pretty much perfectly tuned and that it essentially means other factions should be brought up to that level. Jason Slama has often said things like that on earlier developer videos, when other factions (such as ST) were over-tuned; the idea is to bring the other factions "up" rather than nerf whatever this season's hated-flavor-of-the-month is to oblivion.

The issue, however, is that this tactic does not seem to be working to the extent that it is necessary for people to enjoy the game. When it's getting to the point like it is this season where players are just sick of playing the game and feel it's inherently unfair if any faction other than SK is played, it is not good for the game as a whole.

We've all seen or tossed around the arguments of "wait until they're done with Cyberpunk" in hopes that more time will be taken for Gwent. But things are starting to spiral out of control.

To cut to the point of what I'm taking forever to say ( )......ALL factions need quite a bit of work to bring them each up to the perfectly-tuned faction that SK has now become. I'm not confident that CDPR has the resources to do this either right now or even after Cyberpunk. Unfortunately, this means that the simplest solution is nerfing.

Unless CDPR takes the time needed for more careful tuning of all the factions, unfortunately nerfing seems to be the only "solution," sad though it may be.

 

[irrrregular]

Example of what I can say its a perfect hand for round 3 with Syndicate, and even though, the opponent still wins because he had two f***** GreatSwords, one protected by a defender, the other was 19 points and I destroyed with Slander + Graden.
But it doesnt matter, right ?

 

[Balgar-bard-slayer]

It would be far easier to balance the game, if they hadn't introduced so many cards that laugh at what seemed to be an established point to provision ratio (at least within the bronze lists)

It wouldn't surprised me if just by adding 1 provision to the majority of the MM cards we'd end up with a more balanced game. Analytics be damned.

In retrospect, prior grievances I had about Crow Mother provision cost compared to Pheonix seem almost laughable in the face of Master Mirror.

I am not holding my breath over sensible reworks to these cards.

Post automatically merged: Jul 27, 2020

As an aside, after reading many comments on Reddit about how wonderful the game currently is. I thought maybe I'm overreacting.

So I reinstalled the game. Went into deck builder for 10 minutes. Checked my position on pro rank. Saw as I had predicted the top 500 had become close to 90% skellige mains. Contemplated for a moment playing a few games on ranked - deleted the game again, turned on the PS4.

 

[Guest 4404014]

"Problem with SK"

Look at it like this.

What's the best 4p unit in the game? Villager, arguably Blacksmith if you consider deck synergies.
What's the best 4p nuke in the game? Undoubtedly S-Blow. So SK already got 3 best 4p in the game, arguably more...
What's the best 5p unit in the game? It's a debate cuz of the deck synergies with the Larva and some of the 5p engines but in the vacuum it's undoubtedly Berserker or Raider.
What's the best 6p bronze in the game? Arguable but GS is definitely in the top 3 with Frigate and some of the other 2/turn engines.
What's the best 6 for 6 nuke? Undoubtedly Decoction.
What's the best 7p veiled engine? If you consider deck synergies, undoubtedly Herkja.
What's the best body+dmg kinda epic gold? For 7 - probably Donar, for 8 - undoubtedly Skjordal.

And so on. Go further and you got (probably) BEST CARDS IN THE GAME IN THEIR CATEGORY IN EVERY SLOT. Best echo, best evolving, best high provision power plays, best tall and wide punishes, etc. And they all co-op in the best tag synergy in the game. And considering you got the best cards in game, what can possibly be the best leader or faction-specific feature? Naturally, replaying them.

So it is not the fault of one broken interaction or one or two broken features as it was the case with Dethlaff or Dwarves. It's everything about SK that is broken. It is really puzzling how devs let it happen.

 

[Payus]

Answers inside the quotes:

"Problem with SK"

Look at it like this.

What's the best 4p unit in the game? Villager, arguably Blacksmith if you consider deck synergies.
-Magne division is not as good?

What's the best 4p nuke in the game? Undoubtedly S-Blow. So SK already got 3 best 4p in the game, arguably more...
-Tourney joust is pretty good and flexible.

What's the best 5p unit in the game? It's a debate cuz of the deck synergies with the Larva and some of the 5p engines but in the vacuum it's undoubtedly Berserker or Raider.
-In a vacuum then berserker is 5 for 5, raider is shit until r3., BTW there's no vacuum, there is always a context that is why all the cards you are mentioning are good, in the right contexts and pretty bad-average the rest of the time)

What's the best 6p bronze in the game? Arguable but GS is definitely in the top 3 with Frigate and some of the other 2/turn engines.
-Frigate is more resilient specially in NR and I'd consider it better than a GS although GS has the greatests ceiiling, in that we are in agreement.

What's the best 6 for 6 nuke? Undoubtedly Decoction.
-True. It's nothing special though, 6 for 6 no body, medium to low tempo. Most of the time you loose 1 or 2 points just to kill a 5, 4 with armor, etc. Also Parasite from monsters is the same or better because it has a choice to boost. Decoction is only better with a greatsword.

What's the best 7p veiled engine? If you consider deck synergies, undoubtedly Herkja.
-I agree here too, but closely followed by Dunca, Ng's and Nr's ones are pretty good too. Dunca and Nr's 7p veiled units are very synergistic too.

What's the best body+dmg kinda epic gold? For 7 - probably Donar, for 8 - undoubtedly Skjordal.
-Utterly disagree. For 7 Prov you have Whispess, same effect different condition, Serrit, same effect different conditions, Morenn, only 2 dmg but can also lock an enemy if needed. For 8 there's no contest , Vissegerd. This card gets an average value of 10 to 12, I'm sure we're all seen a Visegeerd with 8 charges... Skjordal is good ONLY in R3 because even if you can use him in R2 a 4 dmg 4 body for 8 provs means you forfeit the use of neutrals to gain 2 points over an enraged ifrit which is in itself a bad card. It also means it's an extra mulligan in R1 because nobody wants him in hand in R1. Same with Harald.

All of the cards you've mentioned require conditions to meet their potential value and none of them work ALWAYS as intended, so they're no objectively strong, they're situationally strong. And, as you see, most of the cards have similar conditions and similar effect.

 

[rrc]

Answers inside the quotes:



All of the cards you've mentioned require conditions to meet their potential value and none of them work ALWAYS as intended, so they're no objectively strong, they're situationally strong. And, as you see, most of the cards have similar conditions and similar effect.

Magne Division is no way as good as Blacksmith. Magne Division just boosts himself, doesn't protect engines, forces you to row stack. Blacksmith is miles better than Blacksmith. In fact, Blacksmith is miles better than any 4P engines as no 4P engines have the ability to gain a change every turn and boost any ally.

Tourney Joust is good. Very Good indeed. But a Tourney Joust can't kill any of the new viel 7p engines. TJ can't kill Frigate, ST defender, the 7P Assimilate/Harmony Engines. etc. While Tourney Joust can be used to boost and protect an engine, it can't deal with MANY of the engines which SB can deal with. In that regard, SB is by far the best 4P removal in the game IMO.

For 5p engine, I wont let my anger on SK to prejudice my judgment. It is Larva hands down. No other 5P card is as busted as Larva. While Berserker can get 9 for 5 (with potential synergy with Blood Thirst and GS), I would be more worried to see two Larvas played than two Berserkers played.

No other 6P engine is as scary and as OP as GS. Hands down. Not Frigate or not anything in the game. A single GS played will force you to either remove it or abandon the round (unless you have Yrden/IGNI etc to deal with it). An undealt GS is 100 times more OP than an undealt <insert any bronze card here>. No other bronze card gives me the PTSD as much as GS.

I can't believe you are defending `Skjordal` as OK. Even in R2, he plays for 4 removal 4 body which is the best in the game. No other card can do 5 damage 5 body. "Can only be played in R3" is not even a defense as it is not a sacrifice. Any other faction if given this option will gladly use it, despite Devotion requirement as this is INSANE value. Crones need to have other two crones played to achieve 6 damage (putthing 4 points on board). In some way, that is a harder condition than just play in R3 as most of the times Crone gets played in R3 with the condition that the other two Crones having been played. Vissegard is also insanely OP, but he needs to be prepped the entire round (but he can give 17 points too.. I had seen 12 charge Vissegard). But he can't remove a 5P engine which is played initially in R3. Vissegard can be played around (ironically by SK the best), by keeping the units not boosted. But nothing can stop Skjordal from doing 5 instant damage. All said and done, I wish Vissegard is balanced along with Skjordal.

But I agree that Donar is not OP. There is Striga which gets the crown here on this category. Do 2 damage or 4 on an easy condition. I don't know why you quoted Morean. She can't do 4 damage in any condition.

 

[bojerbela]

Magne Division is no way as good as Blacksmith. Magne Division just boosts himself, doesn't protect engines, forces you to row stack. Blacksmith is miles better than Blacksmith. In fact, Blacksmith is miles better than any 4P engines as no 4P engines have the ability to gain a change every turn and boost any ally.

Nobody played Blacksmith before the MM expansion. So you can't say, that the card is OP. The circumstances had changed and the card became good... Really good. But the problem is not only the Boost. Problem is, you have to remove hím. And the decks run limited removal and against SK you want to remove many units: Berserker before transform, Raiders before he does damage, sometimes Harald, and always Dagur/GS., etc. You run out fast of removal and lose the game. If the Power/Provision level of other SK cards will be adjusted Blacksmith stays a decent card but not OP.

 

[Guest 4404014]

All of the cards you've mentioned require conditions to meet their potential value and none of them work ALWAYS as intended, so they're no objectively strong, they're situationally strong. And, as you see, most of the cards have similar conditions and similar effect.

Problem is these conditions are pretty much unconditional.

Yeah, Villager is not the only 8 for 4. Miner is 8 for 4 when Dwarf Berseker is played into it. But he gotta 1) survive and 2) be played into one of the only 2 cards. Tridam Infantry can be maybe 50 for 4 when 1) Drummer and 2) Anna and 3) Vysogota and 4) the charge giving engines and 5) Royal Inspiration and 6) a unit with a boost are played into him every turn for 10 turns.

Whereas Villager is 4 body 4 bleed enabled by 5 cards in the deck without any penalty (Invaders, Harald, Herjka, Totem), and 2 more with 1 value penalty (Bersekers). So this is no condition at all. It can also save the Berserkers from seize or removal. It can also synergize with berserk tag or self dmg. So their condition is actually a positive one, all in all.

So, Villager is pretty much the best value 4p in the game. AC Warrior is also undervalued, and it is broken in its interaction with War of Clans (5 removal with 3 body).

But I agree that Donar is not OP. There is Striga which gets the crown here on this category.

Yes, Striga can be that turn one 4p engine removal... but Striga has no Eagle that makes it unconditional 4 removal or 6 removal with just 1 bloodthirst condition. When we take deck synergies into consideration, SK has best cards in just about every category.

Also, MO doesn't care about blood thirst so SK values its dmg cards much more.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

"Problem with SK"

Look at it like this.

What's the best 4p unit in the game? Villager, arguably Blacksmith if you consider deck synergies.
What's the best 4p nuke in the game? Undoubtedly S-Blow. So SK already got 3 best 4p in the game, arguably more...
What's the best 5p unit in the game? It's a debate cuz of the deck synergies with the Larva and some of the 5p engines but in the vacuum it's undoubtedly Berserker or Raider.
What's the best 6p bronze in the game? Arguable but GS is definitely in the top 3 with Frigate and some of the other 2/turn engines.
What's the best 6 for 6 nuke? Undoubtedly Decoction.
What's the best 7p veiled engine? If you consider deck synergies, undoubtedly Herkja.
What's the best body+dmg kinda epic gold? For 7 - probably Donar, for 8 - undoubtedly Skjordal.

And so on. Go further and you got (probably) BEST CARDS IN THE GAME IN THEIR CATEGORY IN EVERY SLOT. Best echo, best evolving, best high provision power plays, best tall and wide punishes, etc. And they all co-op in the best tag synergy in the game. And considering you got the best cards in game, what can possibly be the best leader or faction-specific feature? Naturally, replaying them.

So it is not the fault of one broken interaction or one or two broken features as it was the case with Dethlaff or Dwarves. It's everything about SK that is broken. It is really puzzling how devs let it happen.

To my mind villagers is really the strongest 4p card in the game. My favorite combos is Blueboy Lugos (7p) + Villager (4p).
The maximum basic value of these two cards if played together and valuable targets and no short round and no removal of Blueboy:
10 strength + 4 bleeding + 8 damage from blue boy - 4 bleeding on blue boy = 18
Nerv: I would reduce the bleeding of villager to 3. Then the max value of these two cards independently would be (10 + 3 +6 -3) = 16).

The best 4 p removal special card: Stunning Blow is very valuable, as there are many good cards which fit into the condition (5 strength 2 armour or 4 strength 1 armour). All those other 4 provision cards to not have similiar removal potential.
Nerv: I would reduce the armour dmg to 6. So cards like Parcival (5 strength, 2 armour + engine) are protected from immediate removal.

Best 5p unit: Here I do not share your analysis.
Raider: Is a 9 for 5 if played in round 3 and able to do its dmg
Beserker: Is a 9 for 5 if able to damage 3 and transform
Other maybe even more valuable:
Kerack Guard/Hamadryade/Bloody Dame Aristocrats/Crow Clan Preacher/Passiflora Lady/ Vernossiel Command/ Endriaga Larve/Sly seducers/ An craite Ship/Tribok/: In long round potentially 12 for 5 or even more
Vrihedd Vanguard: Max point of immediate 10.
=> To my mind both of those 2 5 p cards are more less average. I only included beserker and no raiders to my SK deck.

What's the best 6p bronze in the game?
Yes Greatswords needs to be nerved -> The pinging effect is too much for a bronze card. Would change it maybe like this: If one unit is damaged at least one time in your round get one strength (Then 5 provisions would be justified)

What's the best 6 for 6 nuke?
To my mind the value potential of delirium and Decoction would be significantly reduced if GS would be nerved

What's the best 7p veiled engine?
Also Herkja´s value potential would be reduced after a GS nerv.

What's the best body+dmg kinda epic gold? For 7 - probably Donar, for 8 - undoubtedly Skjordal.

Donar has a maximum value of 9 for 7. I consider many other body-dmg cards to be stronger:
SC: Yaevinn: at maximum 12 for 7 in elven deck; Dunca (7 for 7 if dmg order used immediately, otherwise max 16 for 7);
NR: Egmund (7 for 7 if dmg order used immediately, otherwise max 16 for 7)
NG: Serrit also 9 for 7 if Auckes is on hand plus additional synergy with Letho of Gulet
MO: Bee Phantom (7 for 7 if dmg order used immediately, otherwise max 16 for 7; Whispering Muhme: Can be an 11 for 7 if many mumes played before; Gael: Conditional 10 for 7 if bleeding and deathblow

Skjordal has a maximum value of 10 for 8 in last round. I consider some SC other body-dmg cards to be comparable. Other fractions do not appear to offer more valuable body/fast dmg cards:
SC: Etriel: Max value of 11 for 8 (if Muirlega on board); Muilega: Max value of 13 for 8 (if Etriel on board); arguable Sheldon Skaggs (can be easily a 12+ for 8 if prepared accordingly)

 

[uber_croupier]

A single GS played will force you to either remove it or abandon the round (unless you have Yrden/IGNI etc to deal with it).

Using 10p or 11p card to remove 6p bronze just feels really bad. And sometimes you are simply forced to do that. Back in a day, Blacksmith wasn't that popular, so removing GS was a matter of another bronze, sometimes even 4p card. Now it's almost impossible, and even if you do, he will be ressurected by either Second Wind, Harald, Blessing or Freya.

Also, with current tools, it's impossible not to have access to GS and Mork.

I haven't logged for 3 days already. I lost my will.