The problem with STEALTH in videogames

[kofeiiniturpa]

but at least its attracting more people to the genre.

That's not a positive thing if the genre has to change excessively in the process.

Maybe a few of them will check out some older RPGs that are better examples of the genre's roots.

Sure. It's the devs, though, that should be put on an oldschool treatment facility for a while to get reacquainted with what all was lost when RPG's went out of fashion after the 90's early 00's hey days during the rise of consoles. And how that could be salvaged and reintroduced in a modern form - and without losing the heart and soul of it - to todays audience of the genre.

 

[Snowflakez]

That's not a positive thing if the genre has to change excessively in the process.

Sure. It's the devs, though, that should be put on an oldschool treatment facility for a while to get reacquainted with what all was lost when RPG's went out of fashion after the 90's early 00's hey days during the rise of consoles. And how that could be salvaged and reintroduced in a modern form - and without losing the heart and soul of it - to todays audience of the genre.

For the time being, it seems that we'll have to rely on studios like the folks behind Pillars of Eternity and to a degree Larian Studios (Divinity: OS 2) to give us that classic style RPG fix.

Honestly, I'm pretty OK with the modern state of RPGs too, though. As in, I think they have actually undergone enough changes that they're now something totally new. Now, we get RPG-lite mechanics (With a few exceptions), in an open world with a lot of sandbox player freedom. I'm not saying that's inherently better or worse than the classics, it's just something different that we didn't have before.

As I said, we also still have several solid studios pumping out the classic style RPGs behind the scenes. They may fly under your radar, but they're out there, and they're still innovating and creating neat stuff.

To name a few...

Underrail
Copper Dreams (not out yet)
Pillars of Eternity
Wasteland 2 (to a lesser degree)
Torment: Tides of Numenera
All of the Shadowrun games, for the most part

They may not be identical to the classics, but I don't think they have to be.

My one complaint with a lot of these games is that they don't really have any sneaky stealth mechanics, but that's another thing - in this sort of classic isometric style (Even if the mechanics are fresh), it's probably a bit more difficult to effectively implement such a system. It's by no means impossible, but with how few of these games have implemented it (I think Underrail and Copper Dreams are actually the only ones that have it/will have it), it makes me wonder.

So, I'm happy to have less of a classic RPG style for CP2077 if it means I can get stuff like that.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

For the time being, it seems that we'll have to rely on studios like the folks behind Pillars of Eternity and to a degree Larian Studios (Divinity: OS 2) to give us that classic style RPG fix.

In this forum, for example, I am not asking for a "classic style RPG" (well, I have asked for it, but as a spinoff or a sideline project), this game will not be like that no matter how much I asked. I'm just asking for a "good RPG", and borrowing (or learning) elements from classics shouldn't be out of place even with a modern baseline, it doesn't put mold or dust or cobwebs on the game. I know about the most noteworthy indies and the crowdfunders, and have played most of them, and that's all good (none of those is Cyberpunk, though....). But that'd doesn't really change my stance on 'modern' RPGs and their overstreamlining and dumbing down for the sake of overt flashiness, constant instant gratification and cheap powerfantasies (because the audience is percieved to not be able to handle anything else; or, 'nothing else sells').

I know CP2077 aims to be a modern blockbuster or what ever, but I would want it to be a good versatile RPG, aware and respectful of it's roots (mechanical, thematic and artistic), first and an aspiring 'top seller' the second if it must.

 

[Snowflakez]

In this forum, for example, I am not asking for a "classic style RPG" (well, I have asked for it, but as a spinoff or a sideline project), this game will not be like that no matter how much I asked. I'm just asking for a "good RPG", and borrowing (or learning) elements from classics shouldn't be out of place even with a modern baseline, it doesn't put mold or dust or cobwebs on the game. I know about the most noteworthy indies and the crowdfunders, and have played most of them, and that's all good (none of those is Cyberpunk, though....). But that'd doesn't really change my stance on 'modern' RPGs and their overstreamlining and dumbing down for the sake of overt flashiness, constant instant gratification and cheap powerfantasies (because the audience is percieved to not be able to handle anything else; or, 'nothing else sells').

I know CP2077 aims to be a modern blockbuster or what ever, but I would want it to be a good versatile RPG, aware and respectful of it's roots (mechanical, thematic and artistic), first and an aspiring 'top seller' the second if it must.

Fair enough, I get what you mean.

Out of curiosity (And maybe we're getting a bit too off topic here), what exactly would you like to see as far as RPG mechanics go? What's a modern comparison you could draw? We've discussed related topics before, but I don't think I've ever seen you mention the specifics.

In other words, you disliked TW3's skill/RPG systems, what would you do in CP2077 to make it more of a modern true RPG? Aesthetics and the like aside, for the time being. More importantly, would stealth even be a possibility then? That's a really big concern of mine. The dice-rolling nature of true RPGs is super fun and all, but it just doesn't lend itself as well to sneaking about in a more realistic open world.

Also, Copper Dreams is cyberpunk, that's why I linked to it in particular. Or at least it claims to be.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Out of curiosity (And maybe we're getting a bit too off topic here), what exactly would you like to see as far as RPG mechanics go? What's a modern comparison you could draw? We've discussed related topics before, but I don't think I've ever seen you mention the specifics.

I have no modern comparison, no such game exist. The mechanics topic is a tough one to answer without starting to wander off related tangents for several paragraphs.

The very short and simple of it is: I want lots of skills (more traditional ones and returning the more mundane ones, like swimming and driving, that have been lost because it is assumed that they can be taken for granted) and skill tests around the game world, and generally very start driven gameplay where that is applicable and to the highest degree of applicability where it is with the games context of not being a classical RPG in mind.

And I mean skills in a traditional sense of the word, not as unlocking abilities or branching perk trees but flat 'skills' with a range that measures the characters aptitude acting out that particular ability. Some of that "measuring" would happen via diceroll, some by affecting the controls.

Combat has its own things to be discussed, narrative mechanics and mechanisms their own, world interactions have their own (I made a couple of notes on it here), stealth might be a bit more straightforward (and I've already summed up my thoughts on the mechanical side of it in this thread). I made a list of things I'd like to see a couple of years back that touches a lot of aspects, some parts of it might be something I'm not too keen about anymore but that's just details.

The crux of it would be to have the game emulate a PnP game (without houserules) the best it can and whilst having strong mechanical side, have a certain kind of looseness to it that you do not need to start figuring out a "winning build" from the get go but rather let the game roll and roll with it the best you can.

 

[Hoplite_22]

So an AI GM then? because is the only way I can see of getting a game to be that flexible. and Current AI is rubbish so they would need one built from scratch.

 

[Snowflakez]

So an AI GM then? because is the only way I can see of getting a game to be that flexible. and Current AI is rubbish so they would need one built from scratch.

That's not at all what he said.

The very short and simple of it is: I want lots of skills (more traditional ones and returning the more mundane ones, like swimming and driving, that have been lost because it is assumed that they can be taken for granted) and skill tests around the game world, and generally very start driven gameplay where that is applicable and to the highest degree of applicability where it is with the games context of not being a classical RPG in mind.

Wanting lots of skills an skill checks doesn't mean an AI GM.

At any rate, in the interest of swinging things back to the topic at hand while still keeping things related...

I was discussing the whole "skill system" thing in another thread, in the context of weapon handling.

But it made me think - how could that be applied to stealth?

It seems a lot of us don't just want "stealth combat" (even though that's probably what we'll get in the end), but an actual stealth system based around skills. As is the case with the weapon handling system I suggested (where you start out wobbly as all hell unless you built your character for it, your weapon jams often, reload slower, etc.), unless you start your character out with an emphasis on stealth, they could be pretty terrible at it.

But how exactly could that work? Other than "you make more noise", I cant think of many ways your character could actually progress over time. New Vegas had a few good ideas as far as that goes, as did Oblivion. For example, leveling up the stealth skill itself gave the player access to additional abilities, without it being a skill tree/"perk"-focused system. It just happened naturally as players got better at it.

Something similar could be used with CP2077, but instead of it happening through use, players could put points in as they level up. Levels, then, wouldn't be based on raw damage or strength, but getting better at using skills. I don't know how this might work for enemies, though, since AI doesn't really need to worry about accounting for wobbly aim.

Oblivion's system

Mastery Perks

• A Novice gains a 4x damage bonus for one-handed weapon and hand-to-hand attacks - and a 2x damage for marksman attacks - when undetected.
• An Apprentice gains a 6x damage bonus for one-handed weapon and hand-to-hand attacks - and a 3x damage bonus for marksman attacks - when undetected.
• A Journeyman receives no penalty to their chance of detection while sneaking for the weight of their boots.
• An Expert receives no penalty to their chance of detection for running while sneaking.
• The attack of a Master on an opponent ignores the opponent's armor rating as long as the player is undetected.

Just to be clear, I'm not asking for damage increases to happen as players get better sneaking. I'm just using Oblivion's system as an example of progression tied to your level in a skill, not the amount of perks you've invested in it.

Any ideas?

 

[Suhiira]

The question however is ... how to implement stealth ... not ... what are the results of being stealthed.

What game mechanics could be implemented, and how, to make stealth in CP2077 interesting, fun, and (hopefully) realistic?

 

[Snowflakez]

The question however is ... how to implement stealth ... not ... what are the results of being stealthed.

What game mechanics could be implemented, and how, to make stealth in CP2077 interesting, fun, and (hopefully) realistic?

Yeah, exactly. It's difficult, and I imagine it's probably difficult for CDPR too. If they just wanted to go the easy route, they could throw in a Skyrim/Oblivion stealth system and call it good.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Yeah, exactly. It's difficult, and I imagine it's probably difficult for CDPR too. If they just wanted to go the easy route, they could throw in a Skyrim/Oblivion stealth system and call it good.

If Skyrim is what everyone thinks good stealth is, I hope CDPR doesn't agree. Skyrim's stealth while fun sometimes for some OP stealth bow hunting, is crap. Its entirely based on one crouch button and a stat that if high enough, you're virtually invisible while being right in front of the enemy without actually being invisible at all. Its a very broken system when you look at it objectively. Skyrim as whole has very immature mechanics for a video game, and I rather hate the comparisons to what 2077 should be. Its painful to watch, I just can't do it.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

If Skyrim is what everyone thinks good stealth is, I hope CDPR doesn't agree. Skyrim's stealth while fun sometimes for some OP stealth bow hunting, is crap. Its entirely based on one crouch button and a stat that if high enough, you're virtually invisible while being right in front of the enemy without actually being invisible at all. Its a very broken system when you look at it objectively. Skyrim as whole has very immature mechanics for a video game, and I rather hate the comparisons to what 2077 should be. Its painful to watch, I just can't do it.

I second that. I more often than not used stealth just to know if my presence was known. Nothing is more realistic than magically knowing if someone is watching you every time you squat in the bushes

 

[Suhiira]

OK ... everyone seems agreed on how stealth shouldn't be implemented.
How should it be?

 

[Guest 4149880]

OK ... everyone seems agreed on how stealth shouldn't be implemented.
How should it be?

Personally, I'd rather see stealth implemented realistically as possible without the use of stats. I'm talking visuals such as what the enemies can see, hear and changes in the environment rather then percentages but that's hardly the RPG style some might prefer.

 

[0248991]

Hi,
it can be implemented by showing some meta-data to player (depending on skills,...).
In witcher 3 it showed those "white circles" symbolizing monster sound, there were items highlighted by witcher senses,
and so on...

There could also be some meta-data showing for enemy, e.g. if you are getting visible to it, etc...
Those meta-data can be showed off/on by some hotkey.
Also, it could be nice to not to be able to use it all the time, but have something like energy for each skill for each mission.
So use it correctly to greatest benefit.

 

[sv3672]

If Skyrim is what everyone thinks good stealth is, I hope CDPR doesn't agree. Skyrim's stealth while fun sometimes for some OP stealth bow hunting, is crap.

It depends on how you define "Skyrim stealth", the game does have the usual elements of a 3D stealth game like Thief or Dishonored, except non-lethal takedowns. They may not be as refined, but they are there. The bigger problem is that the level design was not done with stealth in mind much of the time, and, like many other things in Elder Scrolls, it is not well balanced, depending on skill and perks it can be anything from useless to totally overpowered. Having character stats makes it harder to design good stealth compared to a game like Thief where the player's character is fixed. It is not impossible, but it requires a lot more work to balance all the supported play styles and character builds, more playtesting and QA (something at which CDPR should fortunately be better, not least since the studio is larger).

 

[SigilFey]

My one complaint with a lot of these games is that they don't really have any sneaky stealth mechanics, but that's another thing - in this sort of classic isometric style (Even if the mechanics are fresh), it's probably a bit more difficult to effectively implement such a system. It's by no means impossible, but with how few of these games have implemented it (I think Underrail and Copper Dreams are actually the only ones that have it/will have it), it makes me wonder.

Commandos 1 and 2. For isometric games, I would give them the blue ribbon for implementation of stealth.

OK ... everyone seems agreed on how stealth shouldn't be implemented. How should it be?

Take Thief 1 and 2 and model everything off of that approach. Especially the lack of specific info. No clear map. No clear enemy placements. Needing to inch your way forward and look, listen, and study everything. Avoid combat at all costs. If you truly master it, no one will ever know you were there.

 

[Suhiira]

Take Thief 1 and 2 and model everything off of that approach. Especially the lack of specific info. No clear map. No clear enemy placements. Needing to inch your way forward and look, listen, and study everything. Avoid combat at all costs. If you truly master it, no one will ever know you were there.

Never played either, but from what I've seen of them (gameplay vids on YouTube) they look like a fairly good example of how stealth can be implemented.
Ummm ... minus the zip-line bow.

 

[sv3672]

Take Thief 1 and 2 and model everything off of that approach. Especially the lack of specific info. No clear map. No clear enemy placements.

Indeed, no minimap and no information displayed in the 3D world, other than interactable items lighting up slightly when they are within range. It is more immersive when the player has to pay attention to the guards' footsteps, their comments on anything suspicious, and other clues. But it is unfortunately also against the trends in modern AAA games and the Witcher series in particular. Hopefully it will be possible to optionally disable the hand holding (without the game becoming unfair when doing so), and quest objectives will not be too often along the lines of "Investigate the area for clues using your Cyber Senses".

 

[Guest 4149880]

Take Thief 1 and 2 and model everything off of that approach. Especially the lack of specific info. No clear map. No clear enemy placements. Needing to inch your way forward and look, listen, and study everything. Avoid combat at all costs. If you truly master it, no one will ever know you were there.

Thief series are amazing examples for old school stealth but lets not forget 2077 is a world of technology. The simplicity of stealth in the shadows might not always work in this setting, at least not in all applications. Maybe in areas of low tech or none, it can have its place but I expect stealth to work quite differently in a high tech zones.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Might be fun if the stealth aspect relied more on something of a combination of Hitman and more traditional RPG sneaking. Hitman's more about 'decieving' the enemies than skulking around in the shadows which to me would fit a bit better with CP than what Thief does. That doesn't say that traditional shadowsneaking shouldn't be in the game, though, but I think that can be a more simplistic (relatively speaking) feature on it's own and used more on the street level and slums, and smaller situations where, for example, you need to make a quick 'disappearing act'. If you wish to infiltrate something bigger, you need more talents than 'hide in shadows' or crouch behind conveniently placed chest high items.

There is a skill for disguises in Cyberpunk 2020 that could well be used here (not as a skill about knowing how to put on clothes, mind you, but about how well you act the part the uniform suggests); and - related - there's also skills for forgery and hide/evade, both of which can made of use here with stealth (and also elsewhere).