The problem with STEALTH in videogames

[Guest 4149880]

Indeed, no minimap and no information displayed in the 3D world, other than interactable items lighting up slightly when they are within range. It is more immersive when the player has to pay attention to the guards' footsteps, their comments on anything suspicious, and other clues. But it is unfortunately also against the trends in modern AAA games and the Witcher series in particular. Hopefully it will be possible to optionally disable the hand holding (without the game becoming unfair when doing so), and quest objectives will not be too often along the lines of "Investigate the area for clues using your Cyber Senses".

I'm rather against HUD unless its built into the game in physical sense. Mini maps, health bars, tasks and objectives. Witcher 3 clutter which thankfully they allow you to disable. The metro series was amazing for this. Cyberpunk could use this concept with the technology. Holographic HUD display devices and eyewear displays possibly optional tech one needs to buy. As well as actually paying attention to the game world around you rather then relying on the map.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'm rather against HUD unless its built into the game in physical sense. Mini maps, health bars, tasks and objectives. Witcher 3 clutter which thankfully they allow you to disable. The metro series was amazing for this. Cyberpunk could use this concept with the technology. Holographic HUD display devices and eyewear displays possibly optional tech one needs to buy. As well as actually paying attention to the game world around you rather then relying on the map.

I see no problem with HUDs. I understand that some people don't like them, but I like to know what state my character is in at any given time without having to pop into a menu or pull up a journal or just outright guess.

I also completely disagree with those who want minimaps to go away. I find minimaps tremendously useful and fun to have. I do not find it immersive or fun to have to pull up the world map just to see where I'm going, nor do I like Skyrim's terrible compass system.

That said, I'd be OK with it being part of an augmentation or a pair of glasses or something instead of being displayed 24/7.

I think the game will probably have a HUD regardless of what we want, though. Every single one of CDPR's other games had one, and they probably won't see much reason to change that.

 

[Decatonkeil]

I'm rather against HUD unless its built into the game in physical sense. Mini maps, health bars, tasks and objectives. Witcher 3 clutter which thankfully they allow you to disable. The metro series was amazing for this. Cyberpunk could use this concept with the technology. Holographic HUD display devices and eyewear displays possibly optional tech one needs to buy. As well as actually paying attention to the game world around you rather then relying on the map.

I see no problem with HUDs. I understand that some people don't like them, but I like to know what state my character is in at any given time without having to pop into a menu or pull up a journal or just outright guess.

I also completely disagree with those who want minimaps to go away. I find minimaps tremendously useful and fun to have. I do not find it immersive or fun to have to pull up the world map just to see where I'm going, nor do I like Skyrim's terrible compass system.

That said, I'd be OK with it being part of an augmentation or a pair of glasses or something instead of being displayed 24/7.

I think the game will probably have a HUD regardless of what we want, though. Every single one of CDPR's other games had one, and they probably won't see much reason to change that.

Maybe they could make a statement on overdependance on technology through mechanics like these. Sometimes the HUD could fail due to bugs, lack of support or maintenance, servers going down... or just corporations wanting to direct meatspace and cyberspace traffic or having to shut them down when we want privacy, then having to rely on our own senses and common sense.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I see no problem with HUDs. I understand that some people don't like them, but I like to know what state my character is in at any given time without having to pop into a menu or pull up a journal or just outright guess.

I also completely disagree with those who want minimaps to go away. I find minimaps tremendously useful and fun to have. I do not find it immersive or fun to have to pull up the world map just to see where I'm going, nor do I like Skyrim's terrible compass system.

That said, I'd be OK with it being part of an augmentation or a pair of glasses or something instead of being displayed 24/7.

I think the game will probably have a HUD regardless of what we want, though. Every single one of CDPR's other games had one, and they probably won't see much reason to change that.

Of course they're useful but sometimes too much HUD is intrusive and takes up way to much screen space, when a lot of it could be situational, built into the games mechanics especially with 2077 uses of technology. HUD will more than likely be traditional but they could make it optional.

They could only use a Dark Souls style option that only makes certain HUD only show up temporarily depending on the situation. Example: Taking damage makes the health bar appear. Toggle button for map and objective display temporarily, Id be cool with that, but not everything all at once. And you know CDPR is old school when they display button actions on the screen, which isn't necessary.

Maybe they could make a statement on overdependance on technology through mechanics like these. Sometimes the HUD could fail due to bugs, lack of support or maintenance, servers going down... or just corporations wanting to direct meatspace and cyberspace traffic or having to shut them down when we want privacy, then having to rely on our own senses and common sense.

I certainly like the way you're thinking. Building it into the games actual tech devices rather then having basic HUD that's inherently fixed to the screen. Making the mini map a GPS type device or health bar a sort of life support monitor. I'm more in favor of this type of HUD input. A system that requires the player to have to manage rather then being given this information out right.

 

[Snowflakez]

Of course they're useful but sometimes too much HUD is intrusive and takes up way to much screen space, when a lot of it could be situational, built into the games mechanics especially with 2077 uses of technology. HUD will more than likely be traditional but they could make it optional.

They could only use a Dark Souls style option that only makes certain HUD only show up temporarily depending on the situation. Example: Taking damage makes the health bar appear. Toggle button for map and objective display temporarily, Id be cool with that, but not everything all at once. And you know CDPR is old school when they display button actions on the screen, which isn't necessary.



I certainly like the way you're thinking. Building it into the games actual tech devices rather then having basic HUD that's inherently fixed to the screen. Making the mini map a GPS type device or health bar a sort of life support monitor. I'm more in favor of this type of HUD input. A system that requires the player to have to manage rather then being given this information out right.

I get what you're saying, but I quite like the way TW3's HUD is laid out. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'm just more of a traditionalist in that regard, I think. I like having the info on my screen, buttons included. I play on a 24" monitor so I'm not sure if that affects anything, but I never felt like the screen was crowded.

In my mind, removing HUD elements (this isn't specific to this discussion, just general trends in the industry as a whole) adds nothing to the game. It's like Apple removing the headphone jack, and removing the home button. The benefits are minimal if not completely non-existent and streamline things for the sake of streamlining them. I'm actually more immersed when I have those "RPG" elements on my screen.

But yes, making it optional would be 100% fine with me. And even if it's not optional out of the gate, mods will almost certainly swoop in to take care of it. There's obviously a clear benefit to some (you, in this case) in hiding elements, or making them optional, which I'm fine with. It could certainly help with immersion.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I get what you're saying, but I quite like the way TW3's HUD is laid out. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'm just more of a traditionalist in that regard, I think. I like having the info on my screen, buttons included. I play on a 24" monitor so I'm not sure if that affects anything, but I never felt like the screen was crowded.

In my mind, removing HUD elements (this isn't specific to this discussion, just general trends in the industry as a whole) adds nothing to the game. It's like Apple removing the headphone jack, and removing the home button. The benefits are minimal if not completely non-existent and streamline things for the sake of streamlining them. I'm actually more immersed when I have those "RPG" elements on my screen.

But yes, making it optional would be 100% fine with me. And even if it's not optional out of the gate, mods will almost certainly swoop in to take care of it. There's obviously a clear benefit to some (you, in this case) in hiding elements, or making them optional, which I'm fine with. It could certainly help with immersion.

Of course Witcher 3 allows for HUD adjustments already so its just a matter of them doing more of the same with Cyberpunk, and some more for the immersive sense.

 

[sv3672]

I am not bothered too much by a traditional 2D HUD in the corners or edges of the screen, if it is not too large or obtrusive. What I do not like is when the UI intrudes on the 3D world, like NPCs walking around with huge quest markers, health bars or level numbers above their heads, objects highlighted with bright and unnatural colors, etc. Also frequent prompts and pop-ups that unexpectedly interrupt the gameplay.

 

[Snowflakez]

I am not bothered too much by a traditional 2D HUD in the corners or edges of the screen, if it is not too large or obtrusive. What I do not like is when the UI intrudes on the 3D world, like NPCs walking around with huge quest markers, health bars or level numbers above their heads, objects highlighted with bright and unnatural colors, etc. Also frequent prompts and pop-ups that unexpectedly interrupt the gameplay.

I disagree, frankly. This is (almost) all stuff I'm fine with. The Witcher 3 had all of it. If you're going to take something away, you need to add something to replace it.

If you take away enemy health bars, you need to add animations for them getting weaker over time, and add physical damage to their bodies to show what we've done to them thus far. It is not fun nor is it realistic to simply take a guess at the state of your enemy after you've pumped them full of lead or cut into them with steel for 5 minutes.

If you take away quest markers, you need to give players some hint that a given NPC has something worthwhile to say. In the Witcher 3, there are hundreds (if not more) of NPCs throughout the world, it would be extremely difficult, time consuming and frustrating to check them all for quests. One option is to simply give the NPC a different-colored name when you walk up to them, sort of similar to what Pillars of Eternity did (though that wasn't for quests IIRC, just memories) and what TW3 did for characters like Gaunter O'Dimm.

I'm fine with not showing level numbers, but it sounds like 2020 might not have levels anyway so this could be a non-issue in CP2020's case. Skyrim didn't show enemy levels and it worked out fine.

Not highlighting objects by default is fine, but again to use TW3 as an example, there are hundreds of loot-able containers throughout the world. If you walk down an alley and need to find a specific item, using your Witcher senses to find it just makes sense from a gameplay perspective. It's the classic gameplay vs. realism/immersion argument - I think you can have both, though. Perhaps in the form of some sort of optional eye augmentation that highlights quest targets for you.

Anyway, none of this really ties into stealth in any way. HUD discussions are probably more appropriate for one of the gameplay threads.

 

[Sardukhar]

I disagree, frankly. This is (almost) all stuff I'm fine with. The Witcher 3 had all of it. If you're going to take something away, you need to add something to replace it.

I don't think that's true. That presupposes once you add a feature - like stealth - you can't remove it in later games, even if that makes thematic or gameplay sense.

It also presupposes that game design can't get simpler. Taking away the super-slow movement in older stealth games was a good idea. Sure it made sense, but it also made it pretty boring. DO you remember that one where you had to crouch -and- walk slowly. Teeedious. System Shock? Thief 1? One of those.

I'd actually like to see crouch removed and replaced with a "careful walking/running" option and a better sense of visibility cones and range. I don't crouch to sneak around IRL and see the whole world from waist height. It's more listening for other people and walking carefully. Not slowly, carefully.

In many cases, I think lots of the new gameplay additions should be gotten rid of, as they are kind of ugly addons. But as you say, that's another thread.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I am not bothered too much by a traditional 2D HUD in the corners or edges of the screen, if it is not too large or obtrusive. What I do not like is when the UI intrudes on the 3D world, like NPCs walking around with huge quest markers, health bars or level numbers above their heads, objects highlighted with bright and unnatural colors, etc. Also frequent prompts and pop-ups that unexpectedly interrupt the gameplay.

Agreed. All of that can be organically made part of the game (if at all wanted), or at least I'd try to figure out how to.

The player should also have some responsibility in knowing how to play and finding things out. If everything is handed out on a silver platter (like over-motherly quest markers and breadcrumb trails and those floating ! markers on top of NPC's babystepping the player through the whole game), it robs the sense of discovery and obligation to start discovering in the first place, you just run frantically from marker to marker to "collect" them all and exhaust the content. Encouraging that kind of gameplay behavior is - in my mind - selling the whole thing cheap.

 

[Suhiira]

The player should also have some responsibility in knowing how to play and finding things out. <clip> you just run frantically from marker to marker to "collect" them all

I think a lot of this is driven by what I'll call "MMO Mentality", leveling (and the quests done during it) is nothing more then a means to the "end game". The problem is, with most RPGs there is no "end game" ... there's just the end of the game.

 

[sv3672]

It also presupposes that game design can't get simpler. Taking away the super-slow movement in older stealth games was a good idea. Sure it made sense, but it also made it pretty boring. DO you remember that one where you had to crouch -and- walk slowly. Teeedious. System Shock? Thief 1? One of those.

Crouching and walking slowly is needed in Thief 1 and 2 on specific noisy types of floor (tile/marble/glass, metal, gravel). On others (stone, wood, grass, carpet) however, it is normally not a problem to stand up and even run, unless enemies are already searching for the player. It is not realistic that there is such a large difference between the audibility of footsteps on different materials, but it can serve the purpose of creating "puzzles" with the layout. For example, a large room with mostly tile floor may have a few carpeted areas, and wood near the walls. The player may then cross the tiles slowly with the right timing when the guards are not looking, try to jump on the carpeted bits (landing on the marble tiles instead is bad), or just stay on the wood near the walls but miss some loot. There is also a type of arrow that covers a few square meters of area with a material on which footsteps are silent.

Crouching as a "stealth toggle" is common in other games like Elder Scrolls, in Thief it slows down the player (not as much as walking) and slightly reduces the visibility, but it is not needed in full darkness, nor does it help much in brightly lit areas. Of course, stealth in CP2077 would likely be different.

 

[Snowflakez]

I think a lot of this is driven by what I'll call "MMO Mentality", leveling (and quest done during it) are nothing more then a means to the "end game". The problem is, with most RPGs there is no "end game" ... there's just the end of the game.

And even then most games let you keep playing and do side content. MMOs don't really even have that. Once you're max level, there's absolutely no point in doing any other missions. They aren't well-designed (with a few exceptions, some MMOs have good stories), the rewards are abysmal and they're usually just "go here and kill X amount of enemies".

Not that I have anything against MMOs, just usually not my cup of tea.

All of that said, I see no problem with giving players some sort of way to know who has something important to say. I mean, in a game like VTM:B it's fine to keep things more vague, because the maps are smaller and there's fewer NPCs.. But we're talking about probably a pretty darn big open world here - a futuristic city, no less. Finding who we need to talk to for quests could be a bit on the tricky side. At the very least, I'd suggest that CDPR drop hints at local bars or on online job boards or something of that sort to give players some direction.

It could be the classic medieval tavern idea - walk in, ask the bartender if anyone around is looking for work, he tells you if there are and where they live, then you can go pick 'em up.

But it's probably almost a guarantee that 2077 will have normal quest markers and the like, as neat as it would be if it was a little more integrated into the world.

 

[Suhiira]

I really doubt people on the street or shop owners in the world of CP2077 are just going to offer a passing stranger a job, it would feel totally out of place.

Edgerunners are are a community of their own, "word of mouth" should play a BIG part.
Your local bartender probably has a "Help Wanted" electronic bulletin board somewhere in their establishment.
Then there are Fixers. They act as the middle (wo)men between those hiring and the runners themselves. Rather the whole point of that particular role/class.

Taking all that into account why do we need "Quest Here !" markers? You'll be told who to contact or given a phone number to call.

 

[RLKing1969]

If you want a game where going guns blazing all the time is the optimal choice, the Cyberpunk universe might not be for you. This is not GTA, where blowing everybody's head off is the best way forward. At least in the tabletop game (which I know this won't emulate on a 1-to-1 basis), running and gunning seems like a pretty good way to get yourself killed.

There are many of us that adore stealth, so not sure why you want it removed. I am 95% sure there will be options for both, as they've already mentioned both stealth and shooting mechanics being present in the game. How both are implemented remains to be seen.

You don't strike me as much of a fan of stealth games, so I'm not sure how you would know that all stealth games are the same nowadays. Stealth games (Good ones, anyway) are about offering the player a wide variety of tools and gadgets to use, usually allowing them to choose how to approach an encounter. These tools often involve combat choices, even if that's not where all the development focus went.

It's the epitome of player freedom and choice, allowing two players to have two totally different experiences. The classic Thief games are a great example of that, as are the Splinter Cell games and even the Deus Ex games (though DE suffers from the "here's a conveniently placed grate for you to sneak through" issue from time to time).

I understand that, as a fan of the "shoot em up" style of gameplay, you might not be into sneaking and avoiding enemies - but many of us are, so why not have both as equal options?

The term "Stealth mechanics" does not mean CP2077 will be a stealth game.

Agreed. I believe that all options should be open, but there is always a better (and easier) way to "skin the proverbial cat." Getting into a fist fight to impress your potential input isn't a time for stealth, but by the same token, taking on a full conversion 'borg toe to toe probably isn't the wisest of moves. Gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, Cochese." And remember, a silenced sniper rifle in the hand is better than two in the car.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I'd personally like to see some of this in 2077 for stealth action

espionage. Make use of that verticality of Night City.


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[Sardukhar]

I'd personally like to see some of this in 2077 for stealth action

Better hit with that first shot, since you're gonna get swingy bouncy time follow-up hardcore.

 

[Suhiira]

Better hit with that first shot, since you're gonna get swingy bouncy time follow-up hardcore.

Not a very solid stance either ... offhand.
Hope the target isn't too far away or moving.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'm also curious how the verticality will be handled, if at all.

In the Witcher 3, you had much more open space and the city areas were few and far between. But, presumably, most of 2077 will take place in a city. Assuming flying vehicles make it in (we have no real confirmation that they will, sadly), that's one option, but it would feel like quite a waste of space otherwise.

I doubt we'll actually see that sort of stealth thing, Beast, but it's a neat idea. I'd be all for it. It'd be hard as hell to aim and super dangerous, like Su and Sard said, but also pretty darn fun. Hell, I could barely pull it off in GTA freakin' V when you do that highrise extraction mission, swinging from a helicopter - and that's a TPS/FPS... I had to switch to Franklin and snipe people from a distance because Michael's aim was awful.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I think it could be possible, in a world where nothing is quite based on "reality" anyway. I don't particularly limit many ideas that could theoretically be in 2077, even if it is a bit far fetched. I have quite the feeling 2077 will be butchered by the forums once released.