The problem with STEALTH in videogames

[animalfather]

The problem with STEALTH in videogames

I read somewhere that CP2077 would have STEALTH in it and this has me worried.

The main problem with stealth in games is that the game usually encourages you through its story and reward system to go stealth, like in for instance Deus Ex MD.
The problem is that you miss out on all the cool weapons and abilities when you take the stealth option as you never get to fire your weapon against enemies. The stealth gameplay of hiding and memorizing guard patrol routs has been done to death and is not a compelling gameplay mechanic and if you are discovered by the enemy you usually reload a previous checkpoint and start over.
I say lets skip stealth all together and go out guns blazing instead.

 

[sv3672]

The stealth gameplay of hiding and memorizing guard patrol routs has been done to death and is not a compelling gameplay mechanic and if you are discovered by the enemy you usually reload a previous checkpoint and start over.

If the game is designed well, then being discovered does not imply having to reload most of the time, there is still a way out of the situation like running away and hiding while the commotion ends, or fighting the guards (which should be viable if done occasionally, just not all the time). But I suspect stealth would be more like in Skyrim than in the original Thief games for example, after all, CP2077 is expected to outsell TW3, and games that focus primarily on stealth usually do not sell that well. In other words, combat would be preferred for the majority of players, but stealth would also be available as an option if the player's character has the right skills.

 

[Suhiira]

Don't worry animalfather there should be plenty of opportunities to shoot stuff outside of story-line missions, just visit the Combat Zone or take a walk most anywhere outside a Corp controlled zone after dark.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm also tired of watching the gurads go back and forth and then dash between handily placed chest high walls.

I'd like the stealth to actually return to skill translating into player "visibility" where detection depends on lighting on the player (taking into account the colour of his clothes and their reflective elements), the line of sight (taking into account if the character is wholly or partly visible), and the sounds he makes (exhausted player might breathe more soundly than others, shoes make noises but unskilled stealth operative makes sounds even with softbottom shoes -- also, I would make it so that if the player carries a lot ammunition or coins or other small metal objects, they'd give a sound penalty), and the characters skill at sneaking (which would affect how strongly these elements work in the players favor). Also, randomize the the guards' patrol routes, so the player can not predict them.

I also wouldn't reward missions completion by the used method but just by the completion (the parameters might include a requirement of not being detected and then you'd need a stealth character, but those are individual cases) and possibly by awarding IP towards next skill ranks for those skills that get used to succession (not free to distribute IP, but learnign through practice kind). This'd not incentivize any method above others.

 

[Rawls]

I really hope stealth is a mechanic. Constantly "gun's blazing" should be a quick way to a short game in cyberpunk IMO. Also, some recent games have done stealth really well (MGSV, supposedly Alien Isolation). Also, there are some older ones like splinter cell chaos theory that were really solid at the time.

I like the idea of using environmental elements like light and sound relative to surroundings ... but it would be difficult to incorporate into an open-ish world especially if it includes day / night and weather cycles. The only passable open world stealth games I've played in the past 5 years are MGSV, Horizon Zero Dawn and Assassin's Creed and they're nowhere near that complex.

Also, randomize the the guards' patrol routes, so the player can not predict them.

This is probably the biggest thing. I don't know if it's possible, but I think it would be better to fix an NPC to a certain area (say 20m radius from a specific spot) and let them roam and search randomly within that area. Alien Isolation did a really good job of this from everything I've read, making it so the xenomorph takes totally unpredictable paths. If they become "alerted" then the area restriction increases to a larger area. Fixed paths do make it less dynamic and more game-y. Also ... if an enemy is made aware of a lethal threat in the area ... it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to become "unalerted" 60 seconds later. Something like 5-10 minutes would make more sense. Maybe even make it so they call the cops (if they're at least semi-legitimate) or backup (if they're an illegal operation).

and possibly by awarding IP towards next skill ranks for those skills that get used to succession (not free to distribute IP, but learnign through practice kind). This'd not incentivize any method above others.

Would really like to see something like this too. Restrict how you can use skill points to the types of things that you used to complete the mission. Stealth in - get to spend it on some skill related to reflexes. Talk your way in ... get skill point for some sort of empathy skill.

 

[Snowflakez]

If you want a game where going guns blazing all the time is the optimal choice, the Cyberpunk universe might not be for you. This is not GTA, where blowing everybody's head off is the best way forward. At least in the tabletop game (which I know this won't emulate on a 1-to-1 basis), running and gunning seems like a pretty good way to get yourself killed.

There are many of us that adore stealth, so not sure why you want it removed. I am 95% sure there will be options for both, as they've already mentioned both stealth and shooting mechanics being present in the game. How both are implemented remains to be seen.

You don't strike me as much of a fan of stealth games, so I'm not sure how you would know that all stealth games are the same nowadays. Stealth games (Good ones, anyway) are about offering the player a wide variety of tools and gadgets to use, usually allowing them to choose how to approach an encounter. These tools often involve combat choices, even if that's not where all the development focus went.

It's the epitome of player freedom and choice, allowing two players to have two totally different experiences. The classic Thief games are a great example of that, as are the Splinter Cell games and even the Deus Ex games (though DE suffers from the "here's a conveniently placed grate for you to sneak through" issue from time to time).

I understand that, as a fan of the "shoot em up" style of gameplay, you might not be into sneaking and avoiding enemies - but many of us are, so why not have both as equal options?

The term "Stealth mechanics" does not mean CP2077 will be a stealth game.

 

[SigilFey]

I truly don't see why having a solid, detailed stealth mechanic in any way means that a guns-blazing approach is not also viable. I'll return to the original Deus Ex (2000). While a bit clunky and dated in the graphics department (even for the time), it allowed for a wide range of viable and fulfilling gameplay approaches. The first time I played, I basically finished the game using a stun-prod and a wrist crossbow with my augments focused on hacking, lockpicking, and invisibility. And I truly felt like a pacifist ninja. The second time I played, I used an assault rifle, explosives, power sword, and energy shielding. Went in the front door every time. No front door? No problem. (Tcha-tchank...BOOOM.) I don't think that modern games really do one type of gameplay better and the other worse because both can't be done in one game, I think they simply understand the nuances of one style of gameplay well, but really don't get the other at all.

Namely...speed. The first rule of stealth is not to move unless there's a reason. And if I do need to move, I move extremely slowly. Unless no one is looking for me, then I move normally -- blend in -- nothing to draw attention. The first thing that happens if something moves quickly in a human's line of sight is: our attention auto-locks on the motion. We notice it immediately. Games today constantly try to do stealth sections involving "dashes" and "dives", hamfisting these fast-paced, shoot'em'up action mechanics into the "stealth" gameplay. Naturally, it feels awkward and out of place. More like slowing down the gameplay for no good reason rather than meaningfully implementing stealth.

I'd rather CP handle such options by dealing with time of day and realistic AI schedules. If I want to do a stealth mission, I simply head to the mission site at night. Fewer guards, tighter security with locks, cameras, restricted areas, but plenty of shadows to hide in while I carefullypick my way forward. If I'd rather just get on with it...I show up at friggin' noon with a whole squad at my back and knock on the front door with a shotgun slug.

 

[devivre]

I really like stealth in games (if it is well done) but yeah, sometimes I also like having the option to fight instead
Being able to approach a conflict in more than one way (one of them being stealth) would be the ideal scenario for me.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I read somewhere that CP2077 would have STEALTH in it and this has me worried.

The main problem with stealth in games is that the game usually encourages you through its story and reward system to go stealth, like in for instance Deus Ex MD.
The problem is that you miss out on all the cool weapons and abilities when you take the stealth option as you never get to fire your weapon against enemies. The stealth gameplay of hiding and memorizing guard patrol routs has been done to death and is not a compelling gameplay mechanic and if you are discovered by the enemy you usually reload a previous checkpoint and start over.
I say lets skip stealth all together and go out guns blazing instead.

There's absolutely no problem with stealth at all, it depends entirely on the games mechanics. There will be a variety of gameplay styles that are optional to the player, not forced. Cp2077 isn't going to be Deus Ex, Skyrim or Fallout and there isn't any information to support that it would be.

The problem stems from the player making the choice to over use stealth therefore missing out of other features. That's not the games fault. That's called lack of self control. And yes while some games like Bethesda's allow stealth to be way over powered, its quite unbalanced when you can use a silence sniper with many damage multipliers, but its still optional regardless. The other problem is if you're a person who doesn't like stealth games and you're playing a stealth focused only game.

Especially in an RPG with a lot of variety in combat mechanics, its finding the right balance so stealth isn't extremely over powered but still very effective. It should be a high risk vs reward system so that its not easy but when you do it right, it works well.

Everyone will always have a problem with something related to 2077 regardless of the fact none of us know anything about the games mechanics and how any of its features will work. You're assumptions are based on existing mechanics unrelated to 2077. Stealth will more than likely be a fully featured optional mechanic.

There's a reason 2077 is suppose to feature many classes/roles so that you have the option to run an gun,and you could probably attempt that, but to remove stealth features altogether because you don't want them. Well, that's why its optional. I say its an RPG so play your way, and everyone else will play their way. Stealth is in son.

But hey, At least call of duty is still a thing... right?

 

[SigilFey]

The problem stems from the player making the choice to over use stealth therefore missing out of other features. That's not the games fault. That's called lack of self control. And yes while some games like Bethesda's allow stealth to be way over powered, its quite unbalanced when you can use a silence sniper with many damage multipliers, but its still optional regardless. The other problem is if you're a person who doesn't like stealth games and you're playing a stealth focused only game.

I don't really think that "self control" is the main cause for players feeling like a game is herding them toward a specific style of play. It's a factor, yes, but the deciding factor. I think most games feel like they're herding you toward playing a certain way...because that's exactly what they're doing.

Look at "stealth mechanics" in Bethesda games. They're included for one and only one reason. Back-stab damage multipliers. Everything else is half-baked and sort of nonsensical. Being able to pick-pocked the armor off of a guard while crouching directly in front of them...then they neither notice nor react to their suddenly naked situation...is adding to the immersion of the stealth mechanic? No. Does it allow me access to areas of the game non-stealth characters can never access? Nope. Does it allow me to solve quests by sneaking past combat engagements or stealing critical items? Noper-doodle. It's a clear sign that the development team neither understood nor cared about stealth. It's not really a gameplay option. It's more of a mini-game, or a distraction. It adds color, but doesn't really generate any meaningful impact on role-playing.

So, yes, players are herded into becoming a straight-up warrior in Beth games. They use direct application of violence in the form of sword / fireball / arrow / back-stab to destroy their enemies and advance the game. That's how the game was designed to be played. And I can steal people's clothes from the front, too. For whatever reason. It doesn't actually advance the game. (And vice versa, the same thing can be said of many games that herd players into being "stealthy". I think describing it the other way around better highlights the phenomenon.)

I really like stealth in games (if it is well done) but yeah, sometimes I also like having the option to fight instead Being able to approach a conflict in more than one way (one of them being stealth) would be the ideal scenario for me.

I think choice and meaningful consequence is the heart of role-playing. I'd really like to be able to both complete the game with the ability to bring a skyscraper down single-handedly...and be able to win the game without ever firing a single shot.

Would really like to see something like this too. Restrict how you can use skill points to the types of things that you used to complete the mission. Stealth in - get to spend it on some skill related to reflexes. Talk your way in ... get skill point for some sort of empathy skill.

As long as the game makes it clear what I'm about to do, I don't mind this form of constant, automatic progression. I find that when it's implemented, though, it often conflicts with the dramatic action of the moment. (e.g. If I answer this NPC reasonably, I'll wind up getting a point in speechcraft, but if I want to be a fighter, I have to punch them in the face and threaten their life. So...I can't be both a warrior and a reasonable person?)

Your idea about skill gains adding to a larger "pool" of points is interesting, though. Maybe even give players the ability to buy "weapon" points with "stealth" points or something if they don't want stealth skills. 2:1 ratio...that sort of thing.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I don't really think that "self control" is the main cause for players feeling like a game is herding them toward a specific style of play. It's a factor, yes, but the deciding factor. I think most games feel like they're herding you toward playing a certain way...because that's exactly what they're doing.

Look at "stealth mechanics" in Bethesda games. They're included for one and only one reason. Back-stab damage multipliers. Everything else is half-baked and sort of nonsensical. Being able to pick-pocked the armor off of a guard while crouching directly in front of them...then they neither notice nor react to their suddenly naked situation...is adding to the immersion of the stealth mechanic? No. Does it allow me access to areas of the game non-stealth characters can never access? Nope. Does it allow me to solve quests by sneaking past combat engagements or stealing critical items? Noper-doodle. It's a clear sign that the development team neither understood nor cared about stealth. It's not really a gameplay option. It's more of a mini-game, or a distraction. It adds color, but doesn't really generate any meaningful impact on role-playing.

So, yes, players are herded into becoming a straight-up warrior in Beth games. They use direct application of violence in the form of sword / fireball / arrow / back-stab to destroy their enemies and advance the game. That's how the game was designed to be played. And I can steal people's clothes from the front, too. For whatever reason. It doesn't actually advance the game. (And vice versa, the same thing can be said of many games that herd players into being "stealthy". I think describing it the other way around better highlights the phenomenon.)

I'm aware some games push players in certain directions but how the player chooses to play the game regardless of intended gameplay mechanics, my opinion remains the same. And lack of player self control is clear when a variety of options are available but they follow the path of least resistance because its there.

No, not necessarily. Bethesda games stealth mechanics are far more dominant than simply backstabs. Fallout 4 damage multipliers are ridiculous and will allow you to complete the game on the hardest difficulty using a select few of these mechanics. I agree that the none combat approach to stealth in Bethesda games don't make much sense at all. And while you can go pure berserk guns blazing, or pure warrior, its very possible to do pure stealth combat as well, none combat stealth aspects aside, stealth works.

Games with a clear genre focus like fighting, shooting or stealth are obviously going to "herd" players in that general directions but that's not every game. My point is when the game offers the gameplay options no matter how the game would prefer you to play, its up to the player to decide that ultimately.

I think Cp2077 would be awesome with the option to stealth the entire game if the player so chooses. Regardless of how hard it is, or if its the intended or recommended path, it should be a viable option. But I also think the stealth aspect should be generally harder then other gameplay options because its the pay off, and the challenge. Stealth should be a hardcore mechanic. No predictable NPC routes, or easy paths to take, or quick escape routes. Stealth should be a very challenging option rather then easy.

Pure stealth game mechanics are made to be easy because it's just that pure stealth, its the only option for the game, its a forced path, so its going to be predictable.

If stealth is optional in Cp2077, the mechanics wouldn't have to be relied on because that mission could be completed a number of other ways as well. But a much harder stealth approach could lead to better results for the players willing to take on the challenge and I love that idea.

 

[Suhiira]

On the other hand I don't want to see stealth implemented the way it is in many games.

Watch/learn the guard route, make some exact series of maneuvers within the allotted (very short) time window and "win" your way past this stage of the game. Those aren't stealth mechanics, it's a maneuver/QTE puzzle.

 

[Snowflakez]

I don't really think that "self control" is the main cause for players feeling like a game is herding them toward a specific style of play. It's a factor, yes, but the deciding factor. I think most games feel like they're herding you toward playing a certain way...because that's exactly what they're doing.

Look at "stealth mechanics" in Bethesda games. They're included for one and only one reason. Back-stab damage multipliers. Everything else is half-baked and sort of nonsensical. Being able to pick-pocked the armor off of a guard while crouching directly in front of them...then they neither notice nor react to their suddenly naked situation...is adding to the immersion of the stealth mechanic? No. Does it allow me access to areas of the game non-stealth characters can never access? Nope. Does it allow me to solve quests by sneaking past combat engagements or stealing critical items? Noper-doodle. It's a clear sign that the development team neither understood nor cared about stealth. It's not really a gameplay option. It's more of a mini-game, or a distraction. It adds color, but doesn't really generate any meaningful impact on role-playing.

So, yes, players are herded into becoming a straight-up warrior in Beth games. They use direct application of violence in the form of sword / fireball / arrow / back-stab to destroy their enemies and advance the game. That's how the game was designed to be played. And I can steal people's clothes from the front, too. For whatever reason. It doesn't actually advance the game. (And vice versa, the same thing can be said of many games that herd players into being "stealthy". I think describing it the other way around better highlights the phenomenon.)

I actually disagree with you a bit about how the Elder Scrolls games handled stealth.

I think they really dropped the ball with Fallout 4, but both Oblivion and Skyrim -- IMO -- had very enjoyable stealth. It wasn't perfect or totally realistic, but it was good enough, and certainly a viable way to play the game. In fact, almost every single character I've created has been a stealth-focused character, making use of poisons, stabbing and archery. But yes, technically it wasn't "true" stealth in that you don't have to ever hurt anyone (though there are mods to let you KO enemies temporarily, or use ropes and such to bypass them).

Playing Skyrim as a stealth game forces me to go slower and be more methodical. I could even take down bigger bosses that would normally have to be taken head-on by slowing down and flinging arrows at them from the shadows, after which I silently roll to another corner of the room so they can't pinpoint my location. I shoot a frenzy-poisoned arrow at a couple nearby enemies, and they turn on their boss, allowing me to either bypass them entirely or backstab the boss when he gets softened up and finishes with his lackeys.

Granted, I recently added a couple stealth mods to really enhance the experience, but overall the base stealth gameplay was "fine". Not fantastic, but good enough to be fun from both a gameplay and RP perspective.

Also, it's worth noting that the Elder Scrolls games - while not on the level of GTA - have always had an element of sandboxy goofiness. Yes, you can steal the armor off an NPC's back, because it's amusing to do so and offers a gameplay advantage (no armor to deal with when backstabbing).

It's not necessary, you don't have to do it, you don't even have to take the perk point for it if you don't want. Some people enjoy that sort of thing, and the option being there has never ruined the RP aspect for me, or broken my immersion. I just don't use that feature. It's like fast travel - Skyrim, being much smaller than Oblivion, can easily be played without ever using fast travel. But the option being there doesn't impact anyone else's immersion, so why not?

TL;DR: I don't quite agree that the Bethesda games (Specifically TES, Fallout stealth has always sucked for some reason) in any way herd you towards straight up combat, but I'll agree that it's by no means perfect, and far from ideal. I think it's likely that CP2077 has more fleshed out stealth, given the setting its taking place in.

 

[sv3672]

I like the idea of using environmental elements like light and sound relative to surroundings ... but it would be difficult to incorporate into an open-ish world especially if it includes day / night and weather cycles. The only passable open world stealth games I've played in the past 5 years are MGSV, Horizon Zero Dawn and Assassin's Creed and they're nowhere near that complex.

Stealth could be more relevant in interior "dungeon" (or, in the case of CP2077, skyscraper or other large city building) type of environments, where the above factors do not come into play, and NPCs are also placed predictably (and much of the time are hostile as well), rather than spawned randomly as a crowd of civilians on the streets. On the other hand, the day/night cycle can be made useful, too, for example there are fewer but more dangerous NPCs outside at night, but the change in lighting also makes it easier to hide from them.

So, yes, players are herded into becoming a straight-up warrior in Beth games. They use direct application of violence in the form of sword / fireball / arrow / back-stab to destroy their enemies and advance the game. That's how the game was designed to be played. And I can steal people's clothes from the front, too. For whatever reason. It doesn't actually advance the game. (And vice versa, the same thing can be said of many games that herd players into being "stealthy". I think describing it the other way around better highlights the phenomenon.)

I would not say that players are outright "herded" into becoming a warrior in Skyrim, stealth is quite effective in fact, even more so when combined with illusion magic (invisibility, muffle, pacify, etc.), it is possible to loot a dungeon without fighting, except where it is scripted to be unavoidable. In some of the caves, torches can be removed, this also helps stealth. However, it is true that there is a difference between designing a game primarily with stealth in mind, or adding it as an extra feature that is still implemented reasonably well but is not prioritized over combat.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Stealth could be more relevant in interior "dungeon" (or, in the case of CP2077, skyscraper or other large city building) type of environments, where the above factors do not come into play, and NPCs are also placed predictably (and much of the time are hostile as well), rather than spawned randomly as a crowd of civilians on the streets. On the other hand, the day/night cycle can be made useful, too, for example there are fewer but more dangerous NPCs outside at night, but the change in lighting also makes it easier to hide from them.

Stealth should be a mechanic ingrained into the entire game, not specific to stealth "zones". What good is a pure stealth class when only certain areas of the game will take advantage of it, while the rest must be played differently, doesn't make sense. And this goes for all the classes. The game should allow each class to at least have the possibility to complete it with whatever class the player wants to use. But lets not forget that the game might/probably have companions and online co op, so help will be available.

There are so many variety of stealth options. Defensive stealth examples, Invisibility, hiding in the shadows, hiding out of line of sight, hiding in plain sight with a disguise, hiding in big crowds, camo, taking cover. radar detection scramblers, thermal camo, optic camo, camera surveillance hack, Stealth tech, and the old "look over there" and run away is my favorite. Offensive stealth examples like silent weapons close range, at a distant.

My opinion is the game should be built WITHOUT catering to stealth too much, meaning no linear stealth path made to be easy, but still allow the use of stealth tactics and gear to have full use at the player discretion. I personally don't want to play the game and notice super obvious stealth mode areas with oddly placed vents leading to highly secured areas. Or interior buildings that have a lot of hidden blind spots just for the sake of sneaking. I want it to be hardcore stealth because its optional.

 

[SigilFey]

I'm aware some games push players in certain directions but how the player chooses to play the game regardless of intended gameplay mechanics, my opinion remains the same. And lack of player self control is clear when a variety of options are available but they follow the path of least resistance because its there.

I am not saying that lack of self-control is not a factor. Building a character in Skyrim with artificially imposed restrictions can make for some really fun and challenging gameplay. Playing TW3 without "hoarding" makes for an incredibly smooth experience. (I needed to fight myself hard at times to just ignore the loot piles because I really didn't need anything.) But that doesn't negate the fact that many, many games are much more heavily focused on one style of play over another...namely, the Bethesda-like custom of claiming "so many pathways through the game" when what that actually means is "so many ways to kill the pre-determined enemies in order to progress".

It's why I really like the Bioware approach. I won't go back to Dragon Age or Mass Effect as much as I will to Beth titles because of Bioware's more linear approach -- once you've played them, you've basically seen them. But their upfront honesty (...you are Commander Shepard, Alliance Military...you are the Grand Inquisitor, Leader of the Inquisition's Forces...) as well as the clearly focused skill trees lets the player know exactly what these games are all about.

I don't see any reason a.) for all combat-centric RPGs not to "broadcast" themselves the same way to the player, and b.) for there not to be satisfying, non-combat solutions to most or all conflicts in upcoming RPGs.

Bethesda games stealth mechanics are far more dominant than simply backstabs. Fallout 4 damage multipliers are ridiculous... its very possible to do pure stealth combat as well...

This is almost perfectly indicative of my point. Stealth has transformed into Stealth Combat in the modern industry. Granted, the limited capabilities of the earliest software RPGs basically did this because they had to, and the habit has been around for a long time. But rather than getting off that track and back to the organic variety of "solutions" that PnP RPGs provided...most games have simply added more combat options (and better graphics). When it comes to stealth -- the whole point is to reach a resolution without combat. That's what stealth is. Even an "ambush" is not really "combat". Combat only occurs if the ambush fails. The opposing side is wiped out before they can react (which is why it's considered such a dirty and underhanded tactic).

I admit freely that most players are not going to be as interested in deep, diplomatic, dialogue options or planning out the intricacies of stealth missions as they will be in pulling a trigger and watching the blood spray. But many would be. I certainly hope that the game does something that lets players play their chosen role...not just play their combat role.

But I also think the stealth aspect should be generally harder then other gameplay options because its the pay off, and the challenge. Stealth should be a hardcore mechanic. No predictable NPC routes, or easy paths to take, or quick escape routes. Stealth should be a very challenging option rather then easy.

Could not agree more with this. I think the idea that a warrior, wizard, thief, and cleric should all be able to somehow go toe-to-toe with a "big boss" is ridiculous. The warrior goes toe-to-toe. That's what a warrior does. A mage does not. The mage must carefully utilize the powers of magic to debilitate this much more powerful foe, then precisely expose that weakness to destroy them. A thief won't fight. The whole reason they spend so much time learning how to sneak around is so that they don't have to fight. A cleric would likely find a way to befriend their enemy or at least halt the combat diplomatically, perhaps by pulling the thorn out of the giants toe...which was what was making it so grumpy to begin with.

And as you move further and further away from a "warrior"...the act of combat should become harder and harder. Characters who don't rely on brute force have to use their own, specialized skills instead, and that should definitely be more challenging than "the direct approach". I'd like a game that offers a large a variety of solutions that do not involve my character becoming violent. And they don't have to be "easy" to achieve. I'd not mind pulling out a weapon and diving for cover, feeling a sense of failure. I'd realize, at that moment, that I should have said this during the dialogue, or that I inadvertently made a choice earlier in the game that led me here, and I should have seen it coming. As a stealth specialist, I want to be thinking "Damn it! S*it! Shi*!! S*it!!!" as the shots ring out...

...not, "I'm a level 23 Shadow-Rogue, so I need to start charging up my 'Dual-Wield Flourish' ability by taking out the weakest enemies first with fast-attack combos..."

I actually disagree with you a bit about how the Elder Scrolls games handled stealth.
I think they really dropped the ball with Fallout 4, but both Oblivion and Skyrim -- IMO -- had very enjoyable stealth. It wasn't perfect or totally realistic, but it was good enough, and certainly a viable way to play the game...Also, it's worth noting that the Elder Scrolls games - while not on the level of GTA - have always had an element of sandboxy goofiness. Yes, you can steal the armor off an NPC's back, because it's amusing to do so and offers a gameplay advantage (no armor to deal with when backstabbing).

I think I've probably clarified my argument enough above. I would also like to clarify that I don't "hate" Bethesda's approach. (Kind of on the self-control track above -- just don't pickpocket guards' armor off of them from the front! It's so ridiculous to even consider doing that in real life, that if you're on the hunt for "total immersion"...simply don't do ridiculous things that are beyond consideration. Problem solved! Mostly...) I'd rather have the stealth mechanics that are there than have no stealth mechanics at all. But they are "disappointing".

I think it's that "level of goofiness", exactly, that needs to be sorted. If a game is going to laugh at itself, the player, and everything around it (Divinity: Original Sin), then yes, "stealth" can be "transforming into a bush and walking right past an enemy in an open field". If a game is going to take itself seriously, however, the goofiness needs to be both managed and qualified. The issue with Beth titles is not that it's goofy on purpose...it's goofy because nobody spent any quality time implementing it in a meaningful way. Since Morrowind was released.

Then, the classic touting of "the player can be whatever they imagine -- a true role-playing experience". As long as you follow the linear, main questline to its inevitable conclusion and ensure you build a combat-focused character. Stealth simply isn't a path to the endgame, it's yet another method of killing things and getting stuff.

Just to end on the right note, I love Bethesda's games! It's not that their approach to gameplay is bad, it's simply that it stopped getting better. Stagnation will kill anything after enough time. Progress. I crave progress.

 

[Snowflakez]

Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you mean now.

I do agree that each playstyle should have more differentiation. You (and I, for that matter) clearly want a "true" stealth system for both CP2077 and games like Bethesda's, as in, a path for gameplay that is focused around stealth. Avoiding combat and conflict entirely, with the intrigue and RP that goes along with that, as opposed to using stealth as just a means to eliminate enemies.

And I respect that. I think we'll see more of that moving forward. Some of the most popular mods for Skyrim are the likes of Sneak Tools, and others that give stealth fans more tools in their toolbox. Sleeping potions, rope, fire, water and noisemaker arrows... I'm not saying we'll see all of that (or even half of it) in the next ES installment, but I do think there's a good chance it'll get a lot better. Even Fallout 4 had FAR more chances for the player to completely defuse or avoid combat situations through speech and bluffing. You could even pull out your weapon and order people to stand down in the middle of combat, with a high enough speech skill. It didn't always work, of course.

That said, it's hard to deny that it's immensely satisfying to roll around in the shadows and stab people, too. It'll be a tough balancing act. I think what will end up happening is that stealth will be split into two "branches" of play (with plenty of room for mixing and matching as the player chooses) for future ES installments. We'll see perks/abilities/gear more suited for "Avoidance" (bypassing enemies and distracting them) and perks/abilities more geared towards assassination.

An analogy would be the Thieves Guild approach (Oblivion's thieves guild, Skyrim's had far too much conflict) versus the Dark Brotherhood approach - stealth as a means to accomplish a non-lethal objective (Stealing, sabotaging, etc.) and stealth as a means to kill more efficiently, but applied to many more situations outside of guild-specific storylines.

For all of their problems, I believe Bethesda is one of the few developers that still take pride in their work, and don't simply try to maximize profits for the publisher portion of Bethesda. They may try to adjust their games to appeal to a "wider audience", but they still care about making fun, immersive worlds for us to explore. You might not share my optimism, but I honestly believe that the stealth mechanics will only get better over time.

Also, a bit unrelated to this particular discussion, but I do have some concern's about CDPR's ability to nail stealth mechanics the first time around. Remember, aside from a couple specific moments in the Witcher 2, CDPR has never created a stealth system in their life. The urge to go the "Bethesda route" and just make it a way to kill enemies could be a strong temptation on their part.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Also, a bit unrelated to this particular discussion, but I do have some concern's about CDPR's ability to nail stealth mechanics the first time around. Remember, aside from a couple specific moments in the Witcher 2, CDPR has never created a stealth system in their life. The urge to go the "Bethesda route" and just make it a way to kill enemies could be a strong temptation on their part.

That concern could apply to the entire project of Cp2077 as well, considering the Cyberpunk genre is completely new to them as well, never been done before. Their advantage is, hopefully they use as much 2020 concepts to drive as much creativity for the gameplay of 2077 rather than look at other game mechanics for inspiring.

As with a lot of games like Bethesda's, they're game mechanics are inspired by other previously used "video game ish" mechanics. CDPR on the other hand has the advantage of much different material to work with outside of video games to bring new ideas to the table.

 

[Snowflakez]

That concern could apply to the entire project of Cp2077 as well, considering the Cyberpunk genre is completely new to them as well, never been done before. Their advantage is, hopefully they use as much 2020 concepts to drive as much creativity for the gameplay of 2077 rather than look at other game mechanics for inspiring.

As with a lot of games like Bethesda's, they're game mechanics are inspired by other previously used "video game ish" mechanics. CDPR on the other hand has the advantage of much different material to work with outside of video games to bring new ideas to the table.

That's true. Both the Witcher 3 and CP2077 are based on well-established works, and in the latter's case, you actually have a lot of already existing game mechanics you can pull from to get ideas.

 

[sv3672]

Stealth should be a mechanic ingrained into the entire game, not specific to stealth "zones". What good is a pure stealth class when only certain areas of the game will take advantage of it, while the rest must be played differently, doesn't make sense. And this goes for all the classes.

I did not mean that some areas would require (unavoidably) playing in a combat oriented way, but rather that stealth is not needed in environments where the NPCs are not enemies of the player's character. This was in response to the day/night cycle being an issue when it comes to stealthy gameplay, I brought up the city streets with non-hostile civilians as an example of where it would not necessarily be a problem. But in cases where the time of day does interfere with stealth, the player can also wait for the night in some safe place.