The sense of exploration and sidequests

[animalfather]

So last year I played probably one of the best games of recent years called Sable. What made that game amazing to me was its sense of exploration. You had this vast beautiful map without any indicators but the way you would discover sidequests or new areas were the visual ques, you would see something in the distant that looked interesting and when you approached a new sidquest would begin or you discovered a new area to explore. That sense of exploration has really been unmatched from games played in the last decade.
So why am I talking about Sable...well if we compare this to Cyberpunk it becomes quite clear why. The way sidequests or new areas were introduced were either getting phone spammed or by indicators, nothing visually was presented. The constant phonecalls about sidequests really made the experience feel on rails, impersonal and non-interactive, I constantly desperately wanted to bound with the city but I couldn't, at the end it just felt like a backdrop.

How amazing would it have been to actually stumble upon a sidequest, you see a shooting in the distant you approach and a new quest would begin. Or you see smoke in the distant you see a flying car has crashed and you need to figure out what the hell happened, I'm not a quest designer but these are just ideas off the top of my head. Surely something better than just getting a phonecall and getting a waypoint could have been implemented here. The most interactive quest in the game was when you met the braindance dealer and everything that followed after that I thought that was amazing. my fav sidequest in the whole game.

I have many gripes with this game as you most know since I've been quite vocal about them so this is just one of many. I would love to hear your thoughts about this.

 

[Netrunner2go]

So why am I talking about Sable...well if we compare this to Cyberpunk it becomes quite clear why. The way sidequests or new areas were introduced were either getting phone spammed or by indicators, nothing visually was presented. The constant phonecalls about sidequests really made the experience feel on rails, impersonal and non-interactive, I constantly desperately wanted to bound with the city but I couldn't, at the end it just felt like a backdrop.

for me the marks on the map with "unknown - see what's waiting for you here" - is the badest way to introduce any content... : /
therefor the phonecalls you get if you drive by are nearly "good" design - but in general I totally get your approach, jipp.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

So why am I talking about Sable...well if we compare this to Cyberpunk it becomes quite clear why. The way sidequests or new areas were introduced were either getting phone spammed or by indicators, nothing visually was presented.

How the hell you will find a quest which not appear on the map in the middle of Night City ?
One example, How many find and trigger "The Highwayman" without looking on the net ?
Night City is not like many games, you look around, you only see big buildings... There are no little towns (point of interest) that you can easily spot and talk to everyone... If I place a quest (not noted on the map) in the heights of kabuki, I'm sure that 80% of players will miss it.

 

[Netrunner2go]

How the hell you will find a quest which not appear on the map in the middle of Night City ?
One example, How many find and trigger "The Highwayman" without looking on the net ?
Night City is not like many games, you look around, you only see big buildings... There are no little towns (point of interest) that you can easily spot and talk to everyone... If I place a quest (not noted on the map) in the heights of kabuki, I'm sure that 80% of players will miss it for sure.

Isn’t openworld about exploring? I wouldn’t mind gigs you need to find by yourself rather than just running from icon to icon.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Isn’t openworld about exploring? I wouldn’t mind gigs you need to find by yourself rather than just running from icon to icon.

Yep, but Night City is almost maze.
I'm sure that it they was not noted on the map, most of GIGs/Side quests would be missed by players...
If I take Skyrim or AC, even without quest markers, you go in towns and quests are there. Night City is like Whiterun but "Skyrim whole map" scale
(but it's true in GTA too, without quest marker, good luck to find the quests^^)

Post automatically merged: May 30, 2022

Just an example which I think it happen to almost everyone
You buy the house in WhiteRun in Skyrim, no problem to find it, to return to it without any marker on the map.
Now, who didn't ask himself where the hell is V's apartment was when he want to went back there the first times... Even with the marker on the map.

 

[Notserious80]

Yep, but Night City is almost maze.
I'm sure that it they was not noted on the map, most of GIGs/Side quests would be missed by players...

Tbh, 95% of the quests are started on the ground floor. Especially the side content. I never got this "verticality" argument since you pretty much spend all time on the ground floor anyways and if you get up on roofs and so on theres often nothing there anyways (perhaps a box of crafting mats).

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Tbh, 95% of the quests are started on the ground floor. Especially the side content. I never got this "verticality" argument since you pretty much spend all time on the ground floor anyways and if you get up on roofs and so on theres often nothing there anyways (perhaps a box of crafting mats).

Yep, but it doesn't change the fact, it's a maze where "finding" a quest not noted on the map would be difficult or by "chance". Unlike many "open-world" where it's easy to spot point of interest.

 

[cartlidge]

How do you propose to feel in the middle of a city with high buildings all around you and seeing things in the distance?

you can turn off the ncpd and gig markers.

I hear the sound of gunfire or some such normally alerts me to an NCPD event when I am near and I have been doing them like that of late. This seems a much better way of telling you something is going on than noticing smoke in the distance especially as most of night city you are surrounded by tall buildings.

There are a couple of vehicles you can spot landing or taking off which if you investigate will lead you to some legendarys but you have got to notice them

If preston can mark shit on my map, I'm pretty sure fixers can mark gigs on my map or I can get into the NCPD database and find the locations of all ongoing crimes.

 

[Notserious80]

I dont really mind the phone calls tbh (would rather meet in person but modern world and all) The map can get quite cluttered tho just like in most open world games, the memes about the latest Horizons and Elden ring was pretty spot on tbh. They do tend too get a bit spammy tho. The messages about cars too buy are worse for me tbh.

I really liked the "hidden" quests more where i found the garage and the picture, feelt much more like exploration. The mini map should probably be enough for quest markers if it could be a bit more zoomed out. Could show up on the main map too when its seen on mini map so you could target it too find your way if its not on the bottom floor.

 

[Czembro]

Yep, but it doesn't change the fact, it's a maze where "finding" a quest not noted on the map would be difficult or by "chance". Unlike many "open-world" where it's easy to spot point of interest.

Sure, but this is the issue CDP created themselves by not giving player a more logical means of getting information about the quests without map indicators, e.g. it could have been handled like what was shown in season 3 of Westworld, where one of the protagonists perform some more or less illeagal jobs and is getting them through a phone app. This is honestly one of a things that baffles me in CP77, because it would be a rather simple solution and one that CDP already utilized in Witcher 3 with notice boards, while also giving player a little more agenda in choosing jobs that they are interested in.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

The mini map should probably be enough for quest markers if it could be a bit more zoomed out. Could show up on the main map too when its seen on mini map so you could target it too find your way if its not on the bottom floor.

It's a good idea, just only see "side content" marker on minimap (as a game "mode" like in AC, exploration or guided modes)

 

[CokyRustler]

Pretty much. CDPR doesn't really "get" exploration. Same way as core essence of gameplay in a horror game is built around eliciting fear and anxiety, action game giving the player adrenaline rush, exploration gameplay is all about sense of discovery.
You need to strike a good balance of providing visual and audio cues directly so player doesn't feel lost or wandering aimlessly, without giving it too much through UI.
I was also hoping they would learn some lessons since Witcher and improve, but CDPR is now more Ubisoft than, well, Ubisoft.
Check your Map/find nearest marker icon, check if difficulty is in your "level range", deal with hostiles standing next to a corpse/chest, read a note ( "a story"), get some garbage loot, run to nearest drop point to sell all garbage, repeat the same process 200 times.
Very uninspired, unimaginative and simply lazy approach to designing open world content.
Some of it even has a negative impact on the game: why is there a corpse right in the middle of the street, and nobody is noticing?
Why are people who murdered this person hanging around all day next to it?
CDPR: corpses stink and typically carry diseases. Plus, the general idea is, if you have committed a crime, you want to get away from the crime scene.
Open world would be vastly better:
- without any levelled enemies and gear requirements
- if open world team instead designed a few dozen locations with different, self contained stories: Corpo research facilities, gang hideouts, crime mysteries, etc. Locations of these would be highlighted visually through visual assets ( to draw in player)
- All of static, marked content removed and replaced with dynamic, repeatable random events that use audio cues to notify player

 

[MerricB]

Of the various things in the game, the way quests are presented could do with work. The changes in 1.5 as to how many Fixer quests are available was a good start and, while I don't think CP2077 will likely see a better system in place, for the future CDPR could consider a few other ideas.

The dialogue (monologues?) the fixers have with you about the quests when you're near the area don't quite work. (I like what they say, I don't like how they're triggered). Do the fixers have a tracker on you so that when you get close to a gig location, they call you? Preferable to me, is that they message you or there's a bulletin board that you can choose the job from - and then you call the fixer to get more details.

The NCPD markers are even more troublesome. Having the map start with all of them just doesn't feel right. I wonder if a better (if complicated to code) solution would be that more appear as you go up in level. In addition, they don't always exist - they appear and disappear at intervals so it doesn't appear that one mugging is always taking place.

Of course, that sort of method is pure hell for completionists. I'm not sure what the best solution is. But, I do know that the current version feels a bit too static.

One of my chief complaints with Elden Ring has been the lack of good quest introductions. With CP, you have more options for people contacting you to begin or continue quests, and I think those should be taken advantage of. (Consider how Sinnerman begins, which feels a lot more organic than most of the quests).

Cheers,
Merric

 

[AlienSpaceBats]

For an immersive experience like this you can turn off HUD indicators, and you can turn all of the icons on the map too so it's possible to stumble into scanner hustles, though NC is so huge, you'd miss a lot. Though without having a 4th wall broken; I imagine data/AR elements are fed into civillians optics all day long. We use similar tools like GPS right now so I'll just pretend Fixers are sending V this info.

I think I'd enjoy a more involved version of finding gigs though, say Regina tells you something's going down at Pershing St, V has to feed that info into either a scanner in their car or personal Cyberware to find out where to go...

I need to get on Gamepass and try Sable.

 

[pliskards]

I see no problem with a mix.

Pre-defined markers on the map that encourage you to explore - along with content that is 'hidden' and can only be discovered by those wandering around.

 

[GwentyBucks]

So last year I played probably one of the best games of recent years called Sable. What made that game amazing to me was its sense of exploration. You had this vast beautiful map without any indicators but the way you would discover sidequests or new areas were the visual ques, you would see something in the distant that looked interesting and when you approached a new sidquest would begin or you discovered a new area to explore. That sense of exploration has really been unmatched from games played in the last decade.
So why am I talking about Sable...well if we compare this to Cyberpunk it becomes quite clear why. The way sidequests or new areas were introduced were either getting phone spammed or by indicators, nothing visually was presented. The constant phonecalls about sidequests really made the experience feel on rails, impersonal and non-interactive, I constantly desperately wanted to bound with the city but I couldn't, at the end it just felt like a backdrop.

How amazing would it have been to actually stumble upon a sidequest, you see a shooting in the distant you approach and a new quest would begin. Or you see smoke in the distant you see a flying car has crashed and you need to figure out what the hell happened, I'm not a quest designer but these are just ideas off the top of my head. Surely something better than just getting a phonecall and getting a waypoint could have been implemented here. The most interactive quest in the game was when you met the braindance dealer and everything that followed after that I thought that was amazing. my fav sidequest in the whole game.

I have many gripes with this game as you most know since I've been quite vocal about them so this is just one of many. I would love to hear your thoughts about this.

Yes, I agree that the city feels like a backdrop. But what a backdrop it is. Some interplay of both guided and spontaneous encounters would have been welcome.

 

[dogsounds]

How the hell you will find a quest which not appear on the map in the middle of Night City ?
One example, How many find and trigger "The Highwayman" without looking on the net ?

I actually found "The Highwayman" by exploring. I saw a dirty great big dam, and went there to see what was there. It helps that I am a total packrat and enjoy searching every nook and cranny for treats and loot. Just stumbled across an openable door and there it was

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I actually found "The Highwayman" by exploring. I saw a dirty great big dam, and went there to see what was there. It helps that I am a total packrat and enjoy searching every nook and cranny for treats and loot. Just stumbled across an openable door and there it was

Indeed, but it's not every players who take the time to explore the city
(some already asked about the secrets added in 1.6 to know where they could find them...)

 

[dogsounds]

Indeed, but it's not every players who take the time to explore the city
(some already asked about the secrets added in 1.6 to know where they could find them...)

Yeah, going slowly and poring over every inch of an open-world world is one of my weird quirks. Explains how I have around 5,000 hours in Skyrim and Fallout 3/4 lol. But I don't have a problem I CAN STOP ANYTIME I WANT ha ha

 

[micmon]

Interesting concept, never heard about that game Sable