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The Snowball Effect is Breaking the Meta

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4RM3D

4RM3D

Moderator
#1
Oct 26, 2018
Now that the tempo openings and coin flip "abuse" are gone with the introduction of the hand limit (and everyone is chilling out and playing engines), the gravity of the situation has actually shifted from the strong opening to the crushing finisher. With Homecoming, it's very well possible to save up on points and play a final card that can easily swing for more than all the previously played points in the round. This means that the one who has the last say, is the one that decides the game.

For this to happen, you'll have to win round one, which results in the opponent having to go first in the third and final round. In order to do that and not lose card advantage, you can play until you have four cards left because then you can still dry pass in round 2 and have a full hand in round 3. To push your opponent out, you make a tempo play on the breaking point of 4 cards in hand, forcing your opponent to pass or go down two cards. Then, having last say in round 3, you can whip out your behemoth, like Aglaïs. The opponent has no means to respond to this, unless (s)he is using Ciri (to regain card advantage) or stuff like Pitfall Trap (which doesn't work against a damage finisher like Regis). Successfully playing these cards, usually means protecting them with Eredin's Immune ability. If your opponent is using the same shenanigans, then it does, once again, come down to the coin flip. Maybe Monster Froth can win with sheer numbers, dare I say it, which is basically a trip back to Open Beta.

Incidentally, most rounds will play out the same because of the above: play 6 cards in round one, dry pass in round 2 and have a full hand in round 3. Sometimes, you can use round 2 to unload bad cards or you can try to go for a 2-0, if you won on even cards in either case.

TL;DR: Finishers will be too dominating and players will respond by favoring Eredin with Ciri or maybe Pitfall Trap, leading to a binary control and counter control meta where the 2nd round usually doesn't matter.
 
  • RED Point
Reactions: antlers, -Arkane and NlelithZ44
M

Mancoon1980

Rookie
#2
Oct 26, 2018
Are you actually giving a criticism of homecoming? You know thats not allowed. You know I'm part joking. here but hopefully this section can stay open for discerning opinions
 
NlelithZ44

NlelithZ44

Rookie
#3
Oct 26, 2018
Yep. Because of this, getting blue coin is great now. You get some points to help you win the first round AND additional mulligan? Neat.
 
J

jgolden234

Rookie
#4
Oct 26, 2018
Yeah, it is funny but I hope to go first now! I have not actually paid attention to my win rate on blue vs red.

Though if you can run a high tempo play in round one or two you can still push the person who goes first down a card or two. Card advantage is still a thing, just not in every single game, which I personally think is nice.
 
-Arkane

-Arkane

Forum regular
#5
Oct 26, 2018
You might have to ban yourself after this.. Joking aside what can I say... looks like CDPR learned from 2 years of beta it seems. Like I stated before this ''HC'' new game needs a beta in itself. I've already voiced my opinions on the ''spectacular'' changes, it's like beating a dead horse at this point.
 
M

milosh69

Rookie
#6
Oct 26, 2018
In most games I've played so far round one and two was played down to 7 cards in hand and the third round with a full hand (both sides). Which means most matches were decided in the 3 round and being able to fabricate some CA late in that round is indeed key to win.
 
M

Mancoon1980

Rookie
#7
Oct 26, 2018
-Arkane said:
You might have to ban yourself after this.. Joking aside what can I say... looks like CDPR learned from 2 years of beta it seems. Like I stated before this ''HC'' new game needs a beta in itself. I've already voiced my opinions on the ''spectacular'' changes, it's like beating a dead horse at this point.
Click to expand...
I love gwent and the community I've met and takes to over the years. I only want what's best for the game and hope changes come in the future. Our criticisms have not been listened to in two years though why now?
Post automatically merged: Oct 26, 2018

Blue coin is op now. What's your thoughts on something like "Reinforcement" we already have the card but what if blue coin would draw this card as one of the 10 and it was able to tutor a bronze? Would that be op or game breaking.? Right now I feel like the tactical advantage is a bonus where this is just a tutor that replaces a draw. Any thoughts?
 
Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2018
L

Lyserus

Rookie
#8
Oct 26, 2018
You probably have a point, however I feel like it's too soon given we are only 3 days in release..
 
-Arkane

-Arkane

Forum regular
#9
Oct 27, 2018
Mancoon1980 said:
I love gwent and the community I've met and takes to over the years. I only want what's best for the game and hope changes come in the future. Our criticisms have not been listened to in two years though why now?
Post automatically merged: Oct 26, 2018

Blue coin is op now. What's your thoughts on something like "Reinforcement" we already have the card but what if blue coin would draw this card as one of the 10 and it was able to tutor a bronze? Would that be op or game breaking.? Right now I feel like the tactical advantage is a bonus where this is just a tutor that replaces a draw. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Tactical advantage should just be renamed to Advantage because that's what it gives to the player going first. It's a terrible way of balancing the coinflip which wasn't too big of an issue in closed beta in the first place because you could obtain CA in so many different ways. Now you no longer fight for CA it's just play cards untill 7 or 4 and pass the respective rounds to play a 10 card battle in the third.

As for the change you mention I'd say it would be unbalanced due to how the provision system works now. There are no more silvers [thanks CDPR..] so therefore you have much stronger bronzes now so to tutor any from your deck on turn 1 seems OP.
 
M

magusnigri

Rookie
#10
Oct 27, 2018
I hate going first on almost any deck except control based. I think the system is very nice once u learn how to fight for CA and the huge advantage of extra redraws if u know what you're doing.

Also there is a lot of misinformation here. Going second is exactly where you wanna be if you will fight for card advantage, the diference now is that you actualy have to fight for it, u need to actualy play the round 1 to get it and then force your oponent to pass when he has less then 4 cards in hand or win round 1. Are you guys telling me you're that bad that u cant beat a 5 points of advantage by playing 7 cards?

Coin flip on the beta was patetic. Dry passes and huge tempo plays defined a binary and lame meta. The problem is you guys got used to the amount of tutors and fin in the beta with those 100% realible and consistant decks that always get the cards u want. Now it feels more like a card game where u have to play with what you have the best way possible, bluf, predict and bait to win, instead of following a simple and already defined road witch is what any deck in the beta used to do.

They actualy found a way to fix the problem and its great!

There is a lot of strategies you can use if you know what you are doing and what you want for the deck you've built and the hand you draw. You can fight for CA, fight for extra redraws and keep the big stuff to the last round or even go all in round 2 if you have a carry over.

Normaly it goes genericaly like this:
-Have a perfect hand? and going second? => fight for CA on round 1 (this is the best spot to be the chance to get CA chances are your opponent wont stand a chance vs your perfect hand well executed)
-Have a perfect hand? and going first? => go all in round one (worst cenario then before? ofcorse it is, your opponent will see that you are too far ahead and will simply pass and all that you have is the advantage of playing second on round 3, nothing compared to card advantage)
-Have a moderate hand? going first or second does not matter => you have to decide during the match till what point u can go on and how many cards you will sacrifice and how many u will save for last.
-Have a bad hand? going second => well redraws are key, play 3 cards and pass on 7, hope to get better on round 2 and try to bluff going heavy in the first 3 cards on round 2 if your oponent forces you, u are doomed, if he is those noobs that thinks his only chance of finish are always in round 3, u might have a chance, but u are going to play first on round 3.
-Have a bad hand? going first? => worst cenario ever, play 3 cards and try to stay ahead, u will play last on round 3


The problem with HC is that its not gwent for children anymore, it does not hold your hand, the learning curve is mutch higher and the tutorial does not help, and ppl are strugling to know because they got attached to a bad model, hence the amount of witchers and roach going around destroying your provision for a lame 12 play that dies with an epidemic in so many archetypes where they simply does not fit.

Sory for the bad english and the wall of text, hope I helped someone.
 
  • RED Point
Reactions: scorba
sfruzz

sfruzz

Forum regular
#11
Oct 27, 2018
4RM3D said:
TL;DR: Finishers will be too dominating and players will respond by favoring Eredin with Ciri or maybe Pitfall Trap, leading to a binary control and counter control meta where the 2nd round usually doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
As a low tier player, I often play the second round provided I have a good hand. Often enough the other player is not sure whether I'm trying to 2-0 him/her or not. Some players will just refuse to play their powerful artifacts / longstanding effect until it is too late. Also, the second round helps me to fish out some combo pieces of my opponent.

I found breaking the 10 cards round 3 beneficial.
 
K

kaleun76

Rookie
#12
Oct 27, 2018
What Magusnigri said. I played the beta for a while, bought (and returned) TB and now am playing this one. I like it though I miss the third row.
 
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