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"The Stack" in Gwent [Timing of Multiple Effects]

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ValhallasChosen

Junior Member
#1
"The Stack" in Gwent [Timing of Multiple Effects]

Is there anywhere that details the order of operations for the stack in Gwent?

There seem to be many cards that have special priority. Coming from a Magic background, where the stack is "first on, last off" it's really frustrating in Gwent at times trying to figure out what triggers are going to happen first when a card is played.

Also, some triggers just don't work at all like I would expect them to based on their description on the card.

Thoughts, feelings?
 
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gamingdevil800

Junior Member
#2
I'm not quite sure what you mean but from my experience I've tailored my Northern Realms deck to counter all of the other decks. You just have to understand what all your opponents cards can do. When they pull out something new I remember it can anticipate it for future games against that faction. What do you mean by cards don't work as expected?
 

Greenmyst

Junior Member
#3
I grew up with The Stack, and it's frustrating jumping into new games that don't have something as fundamentally solid. I truly love The Stack and miss it all the time. This isn't just Gwent that misses it, a lot of games for some reason leave many interactions up to individual cards and leaves lots of ambiguity on the table. Gwent seems to use a priority ladder (as we saw in the patch with savage bear) that, as long as the priorities are logical, everything is fine. but this seems like a roundabout and overly complicated way of going about it that will just require lots of meticulous planning and tweaking (again, as we saw in the patch with bear, as well as the skellige discard units).
 
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Isi23_23

Poser
#4
gamingdevil800;n7011290 said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean but from my experience I've tailored my Northern Realms deck to counter all of the other decks. You just have to understand what all your opponents cards can do. When they pull out something new I remember it can anticipate it for future games against that faction. What do you mean by cards don't work as expected?

OK, few examples. There is bear in play that damage each new unit and I play new unit into weather. Will first weather reduce power to 1 and unit die to bear or is it other way around so bear has practically no effect. In this case weather go last. Now I use Chani and return 8 power unit into weather, in this case weather first turn her to 1 power unit and after that Chani changes it gold. I play Priscila when there is that bear doing damage. In this case Priscila die first, so her ability does nothing. Same situation but I play Dandelion, in this case Dandelion ability happen first, then he dies to bear.

And for god sake, don't ask me how that elf that get +3 each time special cards is played should work. What happen when somebody plays DBomd, did he gain bonus first and than bomb happens and reset the bonus or is it opposite. And what if I play that special that does 3 damage to row, will he survive on 2 or not? What if I play weather. No idea, man.

Indeed some rules for this game will be nice, I really did not like losing because in many cases I have no idea in which order game resolves all the triggers. But yeah I used to be Magic pro player and judge, so maybe I'm asking to much and modern games does not work this way.
 
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gamingdevil800

Junior Member
#5
darklord23;n7011470 said:
OK, few examples. There is bear in play that damage each new unit and I play new unit into weather. Will first weather reduce power to 1 and unit die to bear or is it other way around so bear has practically no effect. In this case weather go last. Now I use Chani and return 8 power unit into weather, in this case weather first turn her to 1 power unit and after that Chani changes it gold. I play Priscila when there is that bear doing damage. In this case Priscila die first, so her ability does nothing. Same situation but I play Dandelion, in this case Dandelion ability happen first, then he dies to bear.

Indeed some rules for this game will be nice, I really did not like losing because in many cases I have no idea in which order game resolves all the triggers.
darklord23;n7011470 said:
OK, few examples. There is bear in play that damage each new unit and I play new unit into weather. Will first weather reduce power to 1 and unit die to bear or is it other way around so bear has practically no effect. In this case weather go last. Now I use Chani and return 8 power unit into weather, in this case weather first turn her to 1 power unit and after that Chani changes it gold. I play Priscila when there is that bear doing damage. In this case Priscila die first, so her ability does nothing. Same situation but I play Dandelion, in this case Dandelion ability happen first, then he dies to bear.

Indeed some rules for this game will be nice, I really did not like losing because in many cases I have no idea in which order game resolves all the triggers.
This sounds like a bug to me I've been in situations against that bear card and have been able to play priscilla/use her ability before she dies.
 

ValhallasChosen

Junior Member
#6
For those not familiar with"The Stack" in Magic, it is where all actions are placed before they are resolved. So if you play a card, it goes on the stack, any actions that are triggered because of that card being played then go on the stack. The actions are resolved from top to bottom. So the first thing to resolve is that last action that was put on the stack. the card that was played that triggered everything resolves last. Thus - First on, last off.

It is an order of operations, just like in mathematics that can be easily predicted based on what happened first. its sort of hard to explain sorry.

Gwent does not operate this way.
 

schidzo

Poser
#7
They have actually changed the priorities of some cards lately. It would be nice to either have a more clear priority list though, as it does seem that some cards have a higher priority than others, even though we can't see it until after the fact. Maybe they should add a general rule. Played cards go before cards on the board, something like that.
 

Greenmyst

Junior Member
#8
schidzo;n7011590 said:
They have actually changed the priorities of some cards lately. It would be nice to either have a more clear priority list though, as it does seem that some cards have a higher priority than others, even though we can't see it until after the fact. Maybe they should add a general rule. Played cards go before cards on the board, something like that.
A broad rule like this might help a bit, but it wouldn't solve the issue with multiple in-play effects, such as bear+weather. what i can tell, most of the problems is interactions between Units and Specials, so maybe priority can go by Type => Special effects happen first, then Units (or vice versa).
 

Isi23_23

Poser
#9
gamingdevil800;n7011530 said:
This sounds like a bug to me I've been in situations against that bear card and have been able to play priscilla/use her ability before she dies.

Could somebody confirm this, I'm really interested. Because before patch, if there was damaging bear and I played Priscila or Hawker Healer (1 power that gives +3 to row), they died to bear before their effect happened for sure, I tried this couple of times. Did they really change this with patch? If so, I lost couple of games because I did not play Hawker Healer into bear thinking it would not have his effect and it is quiet huge deal when you have row with 8 units.

Edit: Thinking about this, they probably change it only for Priscilla, because she now work more like Dandelion, you play one or revealed cards instead of putting 2 card in play. So effects that let you play card happens before damage from bear, but effect that put cards into play / buff other units happens after. But I really would like know logic how this should work. Hard to report bug when we have no idea how are cards supposed to work.
 
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Laveley

Poser
#10
darklord23;n7011470 said:
Same situation but I play Dandelion, in this case Dandelion ability happen first, then he dies to bear.
Actually its the other way around now. They changed the bear priority, it triggers first than almost everything now, even priestess of freya. I already had games were i dropped dandelion and he died to bear effect before commanders horn. Other game my opponent dropped priestess and she died before resurrecting.

Other effect that has really high priority is roach coming from the deck. It is placed before any golden card effect can trigger.

Hawker support on the other hand now almost always act last as i could tell. If you lacerate it with 2 strength, he will die before he can buff.
 

Treamayne

Tourist
#11
Stack and Batch (for really Old MtG players) are/were nice conventions for organizing effects. One thing in Gwent that would prevent the same solution is that a unit dying before using it's ability doesn't get to use that ability (as opposed to MtG where the ability itself would be on the stack, and still resolve even if the creature died before it resolves).

I've been thinking about this a bunch over the last two weeks. I wonder if something as generic as this could help:

(Resolve from top down)
Enter the battlefield (ETB) effects resolve first
Weather (if any)
Self-buff effects
Board Buff Effects
Self Damage Effects
Board Damage Effects

With something like this, at least results could be mostly consistent and predicted. With any given order there will be cases that are worse than current, and cases that are improved; however, my informal notes say this seems the most likely to adversely effect the smallest number of cards.

Thoughts, ideas, BGCs?
 

Laveley

Poser
#13
Treamayne;n7011940 said:
I've been thinking about this a bunch over the last two weeks. I wonder if something as generic as this could help:

(Resolve from top down)
Enter the battlefield (ETB) effects resolve first
Weather (if any)
Self-buff effects
Board Buff Effects
Self Damage Effects
Board Damage Effects


Thoughts, ideas, BGCs?
Is this an example of how you think it should work or its actually how you think it works now?

Because definitely it isnt how it works now. Gwent has individual cards priorities, and not by effect types. For example the savage bear case that i highlighted on my last post here.
 

Akiraana

Junior Member
#14
I play with savage bear/s a lot and last night I played against someone who used Priscilla, she died before using her ability. The opponent kept resurrecting her only for her to be shot down. At one point I had two bears and played a Priestess of Freya card and she also died before I could res with her.
 

Necro_Man_Ser

Junior Member
#15
Akiraana;n7013380 said:
I play with savage bear/s a lot and last night I played against someone who used Priscilla, she died before using her ability. The opponent kept resurrecting her only for her to be shot down. At one point I had two bears and played a Priestess of Freya card and she also died before I could res with her.
That's logical IMO. First the unit needs to come into play, then it can use it's abilitiy. Same reason why redanian elites played into rain get debuffed and then promoted.

+1 for THE STACK. It is intuitive, easy to remember and easy to resolve. Latest triggered ability resolves first, then the next and so on.

 

ThreePi

Junior Member
#16
Necro_Man_Ser;n7014070 said:
That's logical IMO. First the unit needs to come into play, then it can use it's abilitiy. Same reason why redanian elites played into rain get debuffed and then promoted.

+1 for THE STACK. It is intuitive, easy to remember and easy to resolve. Latest triggered ability resolves first, then the next and so on.
Yes, but you could argue that something first needs to come into play before it can be damaged. And if it comes into play, then its on-use effect should trigger, then it should take damage, then it should die.

Its kind of a messy situation and would certainly behoove CDPR to clarify the rules and try to make sure they're consistent.

 

Laveley

Poser
#17
Necro_Man_Ser;n7014070 said:
That's logical IMO. First the unit needs to come into play, then it can use it's abilitiy. Same reason why redanian elites played into rain get debuffed and then promoted.
Yeah but its different case. Weather effects doesnt have the same priority as savage bear, at least not as in this patch.

As i said, gwent have individual card priorities. Cards with similar effects doesnt have same priorities.
 

Necro_Man_Ser

Junior Member
#18
I agree that there should be a universal order of things, because otherwise, one can't make intelligent decisions. At least some trial and error would be necessary for something that should just be organized by rules.
 

Treamayne

Tourist
#19
Laveley;n7013060 said:
Is this an example of how you think it should work or its actually how you think it works now?

Because definitely it isn't how it works now. Gwent has individual cards priorities, and not by effect types. For example the savage bear case that i highlighted on my last post here.
It was a suggested order to open discussion on the topic of "If there was some stack analog, what could/would/should it be?"

The card-by-card resolution is very difficult to use and inconsistent. If there's some pattern, I have been unable to recognize it so far and there really should be some hierarchy. The Stack, as used in MTG wouldn't really fit, because this isn't a game where you can respond the way instants and abilities work in MtG. But there should be some identifiable structure, and that structure should be transparent to the player so they know If X, then Y, resolves with Z result.
 

Azurewraith1000

Junior Member
#20
It would be nice to have some logic even something as simple as allready on board->specials played->units played. Just something so we know how things will pan out.