So "this whole thread is about Keanu ruining the game" is false. It isn't about that.
Technically yes, since they diverged from the original premise and story somewhat from 2018 which had been worked on for 2 years already after the rebuilding of the REDengine, to involve more Keanu which you can tell since some of the times he shows up he is hand crafted and looks low rez not mo-capped and looks horrible compared to other times and some of his dialog is called in, and pieced together probably from other recorded dialog.
Watch any video of the developers from 2018-2019 answering questions even up to the nightcity wire episodes. Yes games change and are iterative process...but what you don't do on a game that has been in production for 5 years is rework the entire concept in 1 1/2 years on a project this huge, because that is how you end up with what the game is currently.
He (Keanu) wanted to be in the story more and became a co-protagonist so the game changed last minute with that it seems so much else changed along with it, reused assets from some of the original story and the gameplay mashed to fit that in and some of which makes absolutely no sense... and more taken out to compensate. The idea that they made the story shorter because people didn't finish the witcher is a bit far fetched, you don't cut a game down to 20hrs or less for that reason, there are plenty of games people finish with 30+ to 40 hr. main stories.
You can see it from all the original works and then more so when the main story director, designer and writers left in that time space, which never bodes well for any game when you have 3 or 4 very key members leave a project before its done.
The game that was planned and what was frankensteined together are two very different products, mostly thanks to this plan of the Keanu effect, even in his interview he said he was brought in 2018, and shown off in 2019.
There are many cool things they did but so many missteps its hard to understand what they were thinking, other than star power and management saying DO THIS NOW, WE NEED KEANU.
-On a side note, any game where you are "dying" as part of the main story and has a sense of urgency...(in 3 weeks?) yet has all this side content which really detracts from the whole ...I need to find a way to save myself, really doesn't make sense.
So while a big part of it is the design at fault with involving too much Keanu it isn't his fault directly aside from wanting to have a bigger part. Most of it is changing the entire game/story fairly majorly at least 3 or 4 times during development, which is a management issue.
And that is a whole different ballgame.
Watch any video of the developers from 2018-2019 answering questions even up to the nightcity wire episodes. Yes games change and are iterative process...but what you don't do on a game that has been in production for 5 years is rework the entire concept in 1 1/2 years on a project this huge, because that is how you end up with what the game is currently.
He (Keanu) wanted to be in the story more and became a co-protagonist so the game changed last minute with that it seems so much else changed along with it, reused assets from some of the original story and the gameplay mashed to fit that in and some of which makes absolutely no sense... and more taken out to compensate. The idea that they made the story shorter because people didn't finish the witcher is a bit far fetched, you don't cut a game down to 20hrs or less for that reason, there are plenty of games people finish with 30+ to 40 hr. main stories.
You can see it from all the original works and then more so when the main story director, designer and writers left in that time space, which never bodes well for any game when you have 3 or 4 very key members leave a project before its done.
The game that was planned and what was frankensteined together are two very different products, mostly thanks to this plan of the Keanu effect, even in his interview he said he was brought in 2018, and shown off in 2019.
There are many cool things they did but so many missteps its hard to understand what they were thinking, other than star power and management saying DO THIS NOW, WE NEED KEANU.
-On a side note, any game where you are "dying" as part of the main story and has a sense of urgency...(in 3 weeks?) yet has all this side content which really detracts from the whole ...I need to find a way to save myself, really doesn't make sense.
So while a big part of it is the design at fault with involving too much Keanu it isn't his fault directly aside from wanting to have a bigger part. Most of it is changing the entire game/story fairly majorly at least 3 or 4 times during development, which is a management issue.
And that is a whole different ballgame.
I went into this game thinking I can get rid of Johnny quickly and then "start the game" but we all know what the real case is.
Whole game is just glitching vision cause my relic is not working and just keep talking to a ghost. Misty foreshadowing the ending every time I get to talk to her. Every joytoy telling me that I'm gonna die.
I wished to play this game like 150h and then get to the ending. Spend my 150h playing story three times and always just dying in the end.
Thank you for this post. Also RIP Evelyn, who ever wrote this new script after Keanu was added to the game did her dirty.
Whole game is just glitching vision cause my relic is not working and just keep talking to a ghost. Misty foreshadowing the ending every time I get to talk to her. Every joytoy telling me that I'm gonna die.
I wished to play this game like 150h and then get to the ending. Spend my 150h playing story three times and always just dying in the end.
Thank you for this post. Also RIP Evelyn, who ever wrote this new script after Keanu was added to the game did her dirty.
I agree with your point of view, the fact that they had to change so much of the game it's probably the cause of the lack of polish, the bugs and maybe even content removed. But we cannot blame an actor for it, the blame is 100% on CD Projekt Red decision makers.
When I think of the story before Johnny Silverhand is introduced all over the game, I cannot stop thinking that they probably wasted more than a year on this change alone. Had they spent that year polishing the game instead, fixing bugs, balancing the skills, perks and currency, and QA in general, this could have been one of the greatest videogames in history.
But it's important for me to make clear that Keanu Reeves shouldn't be blamed, because I want the next CDPR game to be good, to be finished, and to be led by videogame makers, not a marketing department.
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That's a good point. And regardless of how I feel about this game, I have to admit it made me very curious about the TTRPG. In fact, I ordered a copy of the Cyberpunk 2020 sourcebook. They seem to have sold out of the RED version. Do you know anything about that one? Is it very different?
Another thing that happened was that it made me think more deeply about the broader "cyberpunk" genre. Like, I've always wanted a good Ghost in the Shell game and this seemed like the closest thing we'd get to that. But when I started exploring other cyberpunk-related fiction such as Neuromancer... well it's been very hit-or-miss for me. I remember liking Snow Crash way back in the day but I just couldn't finish Neuromancer. The concept of Neuromancer is pretty solid, but I found Gibson's writing style rather frustrating.
So yeah... honestly, I don't really know what to make of the story other than it seems to have a lot of untapped potential. They clearly take inspiration from Gibson but don't take it in any bold new direction as far as I can tell. As to how much of that is the result of time constraints and poor planning, who knows?
A lot of people who bought this game seem to think this game is based off of the genre and not the tabletop game which is is false. This is based off of Cyberpunk by Mike Pondsmith. The creator of the table top game. Unfortunately that is where the similarities end when it comes to Cyberpunk. They didn't even bother to understand the rules, the stats, the classes or the skills.
I'm happy that I'm not the only one thinking that the current story feels full of plot holes and inconsistencies and that it must have been patched up together from a different canvas... I also thought that the whole 'Yorinobu steals Johnny relic' is a poor plot premise.
What value could possibly have the Relic of Johnny Silverhand? Why Yorinobu steals that Relic, if his aim is just to sell technology to competitors (or to denouce the practice to NetWatch)? Any other Relic would do just fine. It's not like that Relic contains damning evidence against Arasaka. It proves that Night City was indeed nuked by a bunch of terrorists, among other things.
And I'm also amazed to discover that somebody else thought that the Relic, which could have been part of original plot, must have contained the memories of a more important person, somebody who would make the heist really worthwhile.
Come to think of it, the story would be more believable if the Relic contains the memory of none other than Mr. Saburo Arasaka himself. The old man comes to Night City for whatever business reason. He brings with him one of the relics he uses to 'backup' his mind in case something happens along the way or if his aged body gives up. Somebody knows that Mr. Arasaka always travels with a Relic and sees an opportunity to steal it. The memories of the most powerful man in the word are worth a fortune (unlike those of a forgotten rockerboy and wannabe terrorist). The plan however goes to hell once Yorinobu kills his father; then he takes over the family company and he has all the other relics of his father destroyed. So V find himself/herself with the vengeful ghost of Mr. Saburo Arasaka in the head slowly taking over and (s)he must struggle to survive while taking a part in shaping the destiny of the most powerful corporation in the world.
Yes, I also came to the same conclusions as the OP. I wonder if someday, once the dust settles, we're going to see a CyberAlpha version of the game, as it was in 2018. Stalker devs (another game that spent a lot of time in development hell, being originally announced around year 2000 and being released in 2007) some years ago released all the original unfinished materials from an early build of the game before it was scrapped and restarted. It was an interesting trip into game development. I hope we do get to see something similar from CDPR too.
What value could possibly have the Relic of Johnny Silverhand? Why Yorinobu steals that Relic, if his aim is just to sell technology to competitors (or to denouce the practice to NetWatch)? Any other Relic would do just fine. It's not like that Relic contains damning evidence against Arasaka. It proves that Night City was indeed nuked by a bunch of terrorists, among other things.
And I'm also amazed to discover that somebody else thought that the Relic, which could have been part of original plot, must have contained the memories of a more important person, somebody who would make the heist really worthwhile.
Come to think of it, the story would be more believable if the Relic contains the memory of none other than Mr. Saburo Arasaka himself. The old man comes to Night City for whatever business reason. He brings with him one of the relics he uses to 'backup' his mind in case something happens along the way or if his aged body gives up. Somebody knows that Mr. Arasaka always travels with a Relic and sees an opportunity to steal it. The memories of the most powerful man in the word are worth a fortune (unlike those of a forgotten rockerboy and wannabe terrorist). The plan however goes to hell once Yorinobu kills his father; then he takes over the family company and he has all the other relics of his father destroyed. So V find himself/herself with the vengeful ghost of Mr. Saburo Arasaka in the head slowly taking over and (s)he must struggle to survive while taking a part in shaping the destiny of the most powerful corporation in the world.
Yes, I also came to the same conclusions as the OP. I wonder if someday, once the dust settles, we're going to see a CyberAlpha version of the game, as it was in 2018. Stalker devs (another game that spent a lot of time in development hell, being originally announced around year 2000 and being released in 2007) some years ago released all the original unfinished materials from an early build of the game before it was scrapped and restarted. It was an interesting trip into game development. I hope we do get to see something similar from CDPR too.
Silverhand appears at the end of the 2018 trailer as an engram to V. Just like in the final game. Clearly the intention was for him to then guide you through the second act of the game not be a cameo at the end. I dont think there were any fundamental changes beyond minor dialogue details.
This appears to be a fan theory first developed on reddit and then spread by vloggers on youtube. People feel disappointed about the lack of content or quality and want someone to blame.
This appears to be a fan theory first developed on reddit and then spread by vloggers on youtube. People feel disappointed about the lack of content or quality and want someone to blame.
I think you mean the E3 2019 trailer. The last E3 before release. I just checked the 2018 trailer and there is no Johnny Silverhand anywhere.
Johnny Silverhand dying while nuking arasaka tower seems to be established lore from cyberpunk 2020. I dont know if that radio DJ saying Johnny died in 2076 is an oversight. No way someone who nuked a city would ever live peacefully in night city.
But then there is that screen if you play the corpo lifepath which says the date is december of 2077, so that mist have been an oversight too.
But then there is that screen if you play the corpo lifepath which says the date is december of 2077, so that mist have been an oversight too.
First of all, it is the CDPR team who has invited Keanu Reeves to play Johnny Silverhand, because Johnny was already supposed to play a big role in the game. It was mentioned that because Keanu had so much fun and they used his experience and feedback, they have doubled the scripts, but it is not like they have changed the whole game plot because of him. He is an actor and works under a contract, CDPR makes the final decision.
Not an oversight, but a urban legend like "Elvis still lives". There is a thread about this in the forums
I honestly don't like Johnny Silverhand but every other character I liked or loved, Is there something wrong with me? He just bored me to tears. I didn't let it ruin the game for me though, The Cyberpunk lore is what kept me around and loving the game.. like a lot. I am hoping the DLC revolves around V and goes deeper into the street gang's and Companies such as Militech, Trauma Team, Kang Tao, a little more Arasaka. There's a big chance some of that DLC will put us in space, Casino that weird Arasaka Space station. Pacifica! now there's something to think about. Oh yeah this thread is about Johnny's affect on the world of cyberpunk....Boring! This game is Night City! looking Forward to the future! Long live the Polish.
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Yeah i never blamed Keanu either, Keanu is love. But silver hand was like a punch in the face every time he showed up on my screen.
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For those who still think this was the storyline considered from the beginning, an example.
We have seen space-related assets through the game:
- A space launch from the edge of the city
- Assets for the interior of a spaceship and EVA suit from the "Path of Glory" ending
- A space station from Arasaka, with medical facilities, supposed to be the only place to treat the issues with your chip
- A satellite being destroyed on re-entry
All those assets are spread across different parts of the game, and in all cases they don't really make much sense: why send you, a nobody, to a space station for a very expensive treatment? why they cannot treat you on Earth? why is there a hidden rocket launch only reachable via game exploits? why "go down with a bang" in a dumb heist to a space casino? why taking down the satellite doesn't prevent your transport from crashing?
None of that makes any sense, what makes sense to me is that all the space-related assets are in there because the space station is the place where the Relic program is hosted, that's why Hanoko takes you there to treat you and not to the basement of the Arasaka building, that's what "going out with a bang" means, taking down Arasaka's Relic program, sending the station to burn in Earth's atmosphere, and killing the leader of the organization and the hopes of a lot of rich people that expected to live forever.
Arasaka sending you to the space station instead of disposing of your body doesn't make sense, even if it's to recover Johnny's engram, sending Hellman up there for a chat doesn't make sense, and risking your life to rob a space casino, solo, and become a legend for it, doesn't make sense. These are the kinds of endings you have to make up when you change the story at the end of the development.
Put Saburo in the chip and all endings make sense.
We have seen space-related assets through the game:
- A space launch from the edge of the city
- Assets for the interior of a spaceship and EVA suit from the "Path of Glory" ending
- A space station from Arasaka, with medical facilities, supposed to be the only place to treat the issues with your chip
- A satellite being destroyed on re-entry
All those assets are spread across different parts of the game, and in all cases they don't really make much sense: why send you, a nobody, to a space station for a very expensive treatment? why they cannot treat you on Earth? why is there a hidden rocket launch only reachable via game exploits? why "go down with a bang" in a dumb heist to a space casino? why taking down the satellite doesn't prevent your transport from crashing?
None of that makes any sense, what makes sense to me is that all the space-related assets are in there because the space station is the place where the Relic program is hosted, that's why Hanoko takes you there to treat you and not to the basement of the Arasaka building, that's what "going out with a bang" means, taking down Arasaka's Relic program, sending the station to burn in Earth's atmosphere, and killing the leader of the organization and the hopes of a lot of rich people that expected to live forever.
Arasaka sending you to the space station instead of disposing of your body doesn't make sense, even if it's to recover Johnny's engram, sending Hellman up there for a chat doesn't make sense, and risking your life to rob a space casino, solo, and become a legend for it, doesn't make sense. These are the kinds of endings you have to make up when you change the story at the end of the development.
Put Saburo in the chip and all endings make sense.
The story arc was there.
Relic, engram, you dying.
When they had Silverhand, a rockerboy terrorist/merc, i do not think he was meant to be the engram, but somebody you meet who learns (as suggested) you have Saburo Arasaka engram. So, whatever the storyarc of him being alive or he went into hiding but pops back up is feasible.
The whole Relic thing to put Johnny on it stroy arc and killing him might be a rewrite. Why Johnny? Cause he was there, to test the relic. They needed a guinea pig, a lab rat and johnny happened to be availiable. As you watch the memory, the nuke has yet to go off when he was captured.
This gave keanu a bigger role, which is not hard to really change from Saburo to Johnny.
As to Yorinubu he didn't know Johnny was on the engram or as suggested, it was Saburo If you had in that plot twist. Hell, it could have been both!! They just cut out the Saburo stuff.
Now, as to the after the Heist issue, this may not fit, as really nobody comes after V, if he had the Saburo engram, he pretty much left alone to do whatever. A corpo like Asasaka is not going to allow any outsider to rule Arasaka, and the game pretty much make it clear a woman will never rule Arasaka. As Saburo is from the old traditional Japanese culture.
Yorinobu is pretty much a half wit F-up. but daddy forgave cause he use/needs his body for his engram.
If you go with the OP theory, then you do have a greater sense of continuity of the game and it fills many gaps.
Hanoko is smart, devious, she uses V to discredit Yorinobu, he no longer a viable candidate for the company, she betrays daddy and destroy the engram as she helps V, and becomes head of Arasaka.
Johnny uses V to destroy Arasaka as he did not achieve his goal, or revenge for Alt. Which if he alive, would fit some of the endings as well.
Always good to hash out theoretical ending and plotlines.
As to what was original, they always write out a story, characters, plot and ending, then add in the detail and elements that shape it to it finish. Fleshing it out.
be interesting to read other people theories if you have them
Relic, engram, you dying.
When they had Silverhand, a rockerboy terrorist/merc, i do not think he was meant to be the engram, but somebody you meet who learns (as suggested) you have Saburo Arasaka engram. So, whatever the storyarc of him being alive or he went into hiding but pops back up is feasible.
The whole Relic thing to put Johnny on it stroy arc and killing him might be a rewrite. Why Johnny? Cause he was there, to test the relic. They needed a guinea pig, a lab rat and johnny happened to be availiable. As you watch the memory, the nuke has yet to go off when he was captured.
This gave keanu a bigger role, which is not hard to really change from Saburo to Johnny.
As to Yorinubu he didn't know Johnny was on the engram or as suggested, it was Saburo If you had in that plot twist. Hell, it could have been both!! They just cut out the Saburo stuff.
Now, as to the after the Heist issue, this may not fit, as really nobody comes after V, if he had the Saburo engram, he pretty much left alone to do whatever. A corpo like Asasaka is not going to allow any outsider to rule Arasaka, and the game pretty much make it clear a woman will never rule Arasaka. As Saburo is from the old traditional Japanese culture.
Yorinobu is pretty much a half wit F-up. but daddy forgave cause he use/needs his body for his engram.
If you go with the OP theory, then you do have a greater sense of continuity of the game and it fills many gaps.
Hanoko is smart, devious, she uses V to discredit Yorinobu, he no longer a viable candidate for the company, she betrays daddy and destroy the engram as she helps V, and becomes head of Arasaka.
Johnny uses V to destroy Arasaka as he did not achieve his goal, or revenge for Alt. Which if he alive, would fit some of the endings as well.
Always good to hash out theoretical ending and plotlines.
As to what was original, they always write out a story, characters, plot and ending, then add in the detail and elements that shape it to it finish. Fleshing it out.
be interesting to read other people theories if you have them
keanus presences had other impacts as well... like promoting his own bike brand Arche as Jackys personal drive, while the quadro lost weight in the main story and after all the early on promotion. just a a lil note in the sourcecode remains that the car was originally meant to be owned by jacky... what would make sense for the early days promo trailer.
Yeah, Johnny Silverhand died canonically at the end of the 4th Corporate War.