The Story is Deeper Than Originally Thought - SPOILERS

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I originally gave the story a 7/10 but after my second play through, and on my third where I've paid closer attention to shards and other things I have to give the story a 9/10 now. Remember this is for the story, not the overall game.

There is some real deep shit going on. Mr. Blue Eyes is one example. He actually appears in the background of other quests. And that whole part about changing your memories is scary. then we have the whole AI possibly taking over human bodies. At some point are we dealing with a human or an AI in a body.

The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V? What is consciousness and does the process change us?

There are other things that the game left open. The whole Black Wall and rogue AI's. Alt living behind the Black Wall. Is she a type of god there?

And of course how and why was Johnny Silverhand's engram placed on the relic. Most likely IMO it was Yorinobu in his deal with Netwatch as they are after Alt like the Voodoo Boys but for different goals.

And finally of course what will happen to V.

I know many will say that's it's a poor story and these are just plot holes or lazy writing that it wasn't explained. But I think it's exactly what CDPR intended. If their goal was to make many DLC's and future games then all of these must be left open for future expansions. They have to leave questions for us to ponder that are much deeper than if Panam is a good relationship or not. For those looking for a shallow story and didn't spend time getting deep into the game and actually listening to all the dialogue then the game's not for you. But if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.
 
I originally gave the story a 7/10 but after my second play through, and on my third where I've paid closer attention to shards and other things I have to give the story a 9/10 now. Remember this is for the story, not the overall game.

There is some real deep shit going on. Mr. Blue Eyes is one example. He actually appears in the background of other quests. And that whole part about changing your memories is scary. then we have the whole AI possibly taking over human bodies. At some point are we dealing with a human or an AI in a body.

The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V? What is consciousness and does the process change us?

There are other things that the game left open. The whole Black Wall and rogue AI's. Alt living behind the Black Wall. Is she a type of god there?

And of course how and why was Johnny Silverhand's engram placed on the relic. Most likely IMO it was Yorinobu in his deal with Netwatch as they are after Alt like the Voodoo Boys but for different goals.

And finally of course what will happen to V.

I know many will say that's it's a poor story and these are just plot holes or lazy writing that it wasn't explained. But I think it's exactly what CDPR intended. If their goal was to make many DLC's and future games then all of these must be left open for future expansions. They have to leave questions for us to ponder that are much deeper than if Panam is a good relationship or not. For those looking for a shallow story and didn't spend time getting deep into the game and actually listening to all the dialogue then the game's not for you. But if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.
It would be even worse it was intended to insert plot holes.

Some of the themes mentioned are great but they are only scratched on the surface in addition, cyberspace and being an engram is portraied as being pretty much hell.

The themes are scratched but the game also already makes it clear what's what.

The endings are a special kind of insult to the player in this medium and it would not even work in a book that tries to get at least 3.5 stars on Amazon.
 
Agreed, directly after my mind was blown by the Star Ending and the conversations with Alt. This is how I felt, glad It was on my first playthrough too. The possible pathways forward for the franchise are unlimited. So many things they can pull from. I agree that while open endings can be frustrating, CDPR managed to get a solid first game done narratively speaking. They hooked the player on the introduction to the world. Now they can go buck-wild with what comes next by leaving so many threads hanging, using those threads as a springboard.

So many themes, so many ruminations on the soul, duty, personhood.

Then thinking of what characters can help V in the aftermath. The people who want V for nefarious purposes, the corps putting a price on her/his head, etc, etc, etc.

So many narratively rich threads to pull from.
 
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bign

Forum regular
I originally gave the story a 7/10 but after my second play through, and on my third where I've paid closer attention to shards and other things I have to give the story a 9/10 now. Remember this is for the story, not the overall game.

There is some real deep shit going on. Mr. Blue Eyes is one example. He actually appears in the background of other quests. And that whole part about changing your memories is scary. then we have the whole AI possibly taking over human bodies. At some point are we dealing with a human or an AI in a body.

The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V? What is consciousness and does the process change us?

There are other things that the game left open. The whole Black Wall and rogue AI's. Alt living behind the Black Wall. Is she a type of god there?

And of course how and why was Johnny Silverhand's engram placed on the relic. Most likely IMO it was Yorinobu in his deal with Netwatch as they are after Alt like the Voodoo Boys but for different goals.

And finally of course what will happen to V.

I know many will say that's it's a poor story and these are just plot holes or lazy writing that it wasn't explained. But I think it's exactly what CDPR intended. If their goal was to make many DLC's and future games then all of these must be left open for future expansions. They have to leave questions for us to ponder that are much deeper than if Panam is a good relationship or not. For those looking for a shallow story and didn't spend time getting deep into the game and actually listening to all the dialogue then the game's not for you. But if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.

A story with potential does not make the story good.
 
I originally gave the story a 7/10 but after my second play through, and on my third where I've paid closer attention to shards and other things I have to give the story a 9/10 now. Remember this is for the story, not the overall game.

There is some real deep shit going on. Mr. Blue Eyes is one example. He actually appears in the background of other quests. And that whole part about changing your memories is scary. then we have the whole AI possibly taking over human bodies. At some point are we dealing with a human or an AI in a body.

The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V? What is consciousness and does the process change us?

There are other things that the game left open. The whole Black Wall and rogue AI's. Alt living behind the Black Wall. Is she a type of god there?

And of course how and why was Johnny Silverhand's engram placed on the relic. Most likely IMO it was Yorinobu in his deal with Netwatch as they are after Alt like the Voodoo Boys but for different goals.

And finally of course what will happen to V.

I know many will say that's it's a poor story and these are just plot holes or lazy writing that it wasn't explained. But I think it's exactly what CDPR intended. If their goal was to make many DLC's and future games then all of these must be left open for future expansions. They have to leave questions for us to ponder that are much deeper than if Panam is a good relationship or not. For those looking for a shallow story and didn't spend time getting deep into the game and actually listening to all the dialogue then the game's not for you. But if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.

I'm sorry, what?
A game that doesn't answer any questions and leaves things open for future expansions is deep?
This is pretty much ME3 all over again, the endings were deep because people could interpret them however they wanted to.

The things you mentioned here are not part of the main story. I agree that the question of "what is a soul?", "Is V still V?" would have been interesting, but the story isn't about that.

So what would you rate just the main story? Without taking your headcanon into account?
 

Guest 4519094

Guest
Seeing the pace at which theory crafting is going,
it for sure got lots of people fired up, specially the lore buffs who already
finished reading all the books :p

speaking of which hopefully with the covid vaccines getting distributed
maybe Mike Pondsmith will be able to go back to Poland lend a hand weaving new stories.
 
The potential is not same as deep.
A story that you can read and learn multiple times is deep.
Also if the story discuss a philosophical point is deep.
Potential is the word we used to refuse someone we don't like, which means "you are not perpared".
There are many stories CDPR can explore, but didn't.
They can throw a philosophical point and give us their thought, that would make the story deep, but they didn't.
The story which never exist can't be called "deep".
 
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The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V?
This is the kind of thing that would be fine in a linear game. As far as I'm concerned, Alt makes it clear that you will die and be replaced after Soulkiller, and that seemed obvious to me as Alt was saying it. From then on this alleged RPG felt largely dissonant, rushing toward something I already believed was doom regardless; if it was meant to be up to the player then they should've given us an ending option that avoids Soulkiller without shoving down your throat that you got the bad end.
 
The potential is not same as deep.
A story that you can read and learn multiple times is deep.[/qiote]

And that is exactly what I did. I replayed the game again and found/read additional shards and got more tidbits of information. Or are you saying you spotted Mr. Blue Eyes standing on a balcany during a mission the first time you played it?

Also if the story discuss a philosophical point is deep.

So what is a sould and does a soul make a person not philosophical?

Potential is the word we used to refuse someone we don't like, which means "you are not perpared".

Huh? Potential and prepared are not really related. Plus I never used either term so not sure where this comes from.

There are many stories CDPR can explore, but didn't.

This was like the first book in a 5 part series. It laid the groundwork for future stories. It told about one story that intoduces you to the world. Did Game of Thrones discuss what White Walkers were and how they were created in the first book?

They can throw a philosophical point and give us their thought, that would make the story deep, but they didn't.
The story which never exist can't be called "deep".

Clearly you don't know what philosophical means then. I already mentioned one which was the soul. Also, in the game there is a discussion about changing your memories and if you are the same person. Plus here's a big one that they approach from two ends. Is an AI in a body, or a machine a person. The game gave you Deleman, Brandon and the possibility of rogue AI's taking over a body.

Yet for you none of this has any philosophical meanings?

I can only conclude that we played different games.
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This is the kind of thing that would be fine in a linear game. As far as I'm concerned, Alt makes it clear that you will die and be replaced after Soulkiller, and that seemed obvious to me as Alt was saying it. From then on this alleged RPG felt largely dissonant, rushing toward something I already believed was doom regardless; if it was meant to be up to the player then they should've given us an ending option that avoids Soulkiller without shoving down your throat that you got the bad end.

You do have an ending that doesn't involve soul killer and you still live for 6 months. Do the Arasaka ending that goes back to Earth. Soul killer wasn't used on you in that one. Soul killer was used only if you want to be stored in Mikoshi.
 
You do have an ending that doesn't involve soul killer and you still live for 6 months. Do the Arasaka ending that goes back to Earth. Soul killer wasn't used on you in that one. Soul killer was used only if you want to be stored in Mikoshi.
Sure, except you can't ever actually say "I'm only doing this as it's my only chance to avoid Soulkiller", and the epilogue for the Arasaka ending might as well be one of the devs sitting down and going "This is the bad ending. You know you got the bad ending right? It's this one. Fuck you for picking this ending. Go back and give yourself to Johnny or let your cyber clone live the rest of your life."
 
Sure, except you can't ever actually say "I'm only doing this as it's my only chance to avoid Soulkiller", and the epilogue for the Arasaka ending might as well be one of the devs sitting down and going "This is the bad ending. You know you got the bad ending right? It's this one. Fuck you for picking this ending. Go back and give yourself to Johnny or let your cyber clone live the rest of your life."

It's bad because Arasaka gets stronger.

Facts are facts. If my answers upset you then stop asking scary questions. It is the only ending where you can live for a few more months and not have soul killer used on you.
 
It's bad because Arasaka gets stronger.

Facts are facts. If my answers upset you then stop asking scary questions. It is the only ending where you can live for a few more months and not have soul killer used on you.
My only point is that if you accept that Soulkiller kills the original person then all of the endings are shit and most of them are meaningless.
 
Well Arasaka already signed a deal with all the universities so all of the students must wear implants of Arasaka so they can see and hear everuthing from the young minds till Well death.
The thing is you find things in the world that has some story behind it BUT your problem is that you connect it to the actual story and you make it like its part of this story....and its not. The story was ok for whst it was- chronicles of jonny silverhand and i really do hope it ends cause i wanna get the story of alpha centauri and rogue AIs which were not part of the main story. Hell we see mr blue eyes who is clearly controlled all the time in the peralez questline which is not part of the main story so dont get them confused. The story is average 5 or 6 out of 10 because the main story is kinda cut off the whole world if you think about it.
 
I originally gave the story a 7/10 but after my second play through, and on my third where I've paid closer attention to shards and other things I have to give the story a 9/10 now. Remember this is for the story, not the overall game.

There is some real deep shit going on. Mr. Blue Eyes is one example. He actually appears in the background of other quests. And that whole part about changing your memories is scary. then we have the whole AI possibly taking over human bodies. At some point are we dealing with a human or an AI in a body.

The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V? What is consciousness and does the process change us?

There are other things that the game left open. The whole Black Wall and rogue AI's. Alt living behind the Black Wall. Is she a type of god there?

And of course how and why was Johnny Silverhand's engram placed on the relic. Most likely IMO it was Yorinobu in his deal with Netwatch as they are after Alt like the Voodoo Boys but for different goals.

And finally of course what will happen to V.

I know many will say that's it's a poor story and these are just plot holes or lazy writing that it wasn't explained. But I think it's exactly what CDPR intended. If their goal was to make many DLC's and future games then all of these must be left open for future expansions. They have to leave questions for us to ponder that are much deeper than if Panam is a good relationship or not. For those looking for a shallow story and didn't spend time getting deep into the game and actually listening to all the dialogue then the game's not for you. But if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.
If the story will be measure by the future expansions that will add new acts i could say that story was quite good. Deep? no so much since many "deep" elements were shunted to make a room for Johnny character - good or bad is up to audience. For me it was done on the expanse of the overall story, and by the end of the day story just feels like another bromace fps - Crysis, Modern Warfare you name it, and they did this just "better" if somebody is for this kind of stories.

For the rest, story is indeed trying to tease many elements - Blue Eye People, AI behind Blackwall, Alt plans, 5th corpo war. the key question is if the story will be expanded in those directions.

If the plans are to make a real branching story with elements like above, since worldbuilding is finished - that's great.
if this will be copy-paste MQ from the game or the spin-offs, I'm out and done.
 
There are quite a few philosophical topics in game. For me I played the game from perspective of someone who was in cyberpunk literature back in the day. Meaning things like we can have high tech weapons, gadgets, but does that change humans or if motives behind crime would stay the same.

Also, we can solve one problem with technology but not necessarily without introducing others. etc.

What is soul, what is even real? Silverhand is unreliable narrator and especially one of the endings sort may pose a question, so he died, engram was created, but reflecting back to how he remembers things and things other characters point out regarding Silverhand, we may ask a question, how much that made any difference at all? If he was in a way perhaps incomplete, way before, maybe always. Same goes for certain other character who was never made to be an engram.

I really appreciated monks in game and I think that's about how deep you can get. People have wondered these questions perhaps as long as there has been humans. Where we are now? Science has opinion, different philosophies have different opinions, religions have different opinions, all these sometimes intersecting, sometimes excluding things from others spheres so to say. Fiction can offer us different kind of reflections, but that's about it unless it's a magical universe.

What comes to mystery man and all that, I took that as a DLC hook or something. There's mystery I like and mystery I don't. I think it's way too easy to build things up on anticipation cycle that goes on while nothing really ever resolves. It's popular TV, I think there are novels, why not games, but it just isn't for me.
 
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Personally I found the whole Johnny-Alt arc to be really good in asking questions that I personally ask myself lately.

Every day I witness first hand both how corporations work and how so called AI technology evolves. How robotization slowly automates human tasks and how reduntat certain jobs slowly become. Then I see things like Neuralink trying to bring brain-machine-interface technology implementation to the market.

Man vs. Machine. Becoming one with AI. I found all the conversations with Alt going really deep on all these topics, not to mention the endings...really good - and very present-day - stuff.
 
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You do have an ending that doesn't involve soul killer and you still live for 6 months. Do the Arasaka ending that goes back to Earth. Soul killer wasn't used on you in that one. Soul killer was used only if you want to be stored in Mikoshi.
I don't know if you learned philosoph, or just think anything mention soul is a philosophical point.
I do learned philosoph, and I'm sure that stand here and just ask what is soul or if you still have soul after burned or whether Brandon have soul can't build a philosophical point. It just something youngman would ask himself while watching a starry night, which also the timing everyone think himself as a philosopher.
Did V struggle? Did he ask himself why? Is there any force or scene make him thinking? Epiphany? Make him or maybe you get an answer about an huge question? What standpoint this game support? Did it give you a new or at least special veiw point to watch the world?
Yes you find blue eyes, so what? What can we learn from it? You say you learned from this game so what is it?
There is an NPC maybe a big bad guy? AI want hit human and the world is in danger?
Didn't we know it before we play this game?
It's a discovery, not "learned".
Something you learned must change you inside. That's why the word "philosoph" means "love wisdom".

Yet for you none of this has any philosophical meanings?
No, it's not.
This game touch many huge point but avoid on purpose.
In many cases it just one step further, but they refuse to going on.
 
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[...]
There is some real deep shit going on. Mr. Blue Eyes is one example. He actually appears in the background of other quests. And that whole part about changing your memories is scary. then we have the whole AI possibly taking over human bodies. At some point are we dealing with a human or an AI in a body.

The endings also can get very philosophical. Is there a soul? Are we still the original V? What is consciousness and does the process change us?

There are other things that the game left open. The whole Black Wall and rogue AI's. Alt living behind the Black Wall. Is she a type of god there?

And of course how and why was Johnny Silverhand's engram placed on the relic. Most likely IMO it was Yorinobu in his deal with Netwatch as they are after Alt like the Voodoo Boys but for different goals.

And finally of course what will happen to V.

I know many will say that's it's a poor story and these are just plot holes or lazy writing that it wasn't explained. But I think it's exactly what CDPR intended. If their goal was to make many DLC's and future games then all of these must be left open for future expansions. They have to leave questions for us to ponder that are much deeper than if Panam is a good relationship or not. For those looking for a shallow story and didn't spend time getting deep into the game and actually listening to all the dialogue then the game's not for you. But if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.

To start with, the base material has a truckton of depth. Deep lore, some well rounded characters, factions, everything. The overall feeling I have after discovering that lore (no thanks to the horribly managed in-game shards) is that they barely scratched the surface here. Second, there were many deep topics handled in the last chapter of the ME trilogy, including whether or not Legion has a soul, the story was better put together with only a catastrophic ending. CP2077 suffers the opposite:

Soulkiller, Alt and the Black Wall are barely touched as topics, with the 2 major players up and about (VDBs and Netwatch) having 1 brief appearence in the entire game. And yeah, while Johnny's taking the lead role in this saga of ours, the main theme has to be deeply tied to the what lurks behind the dataforts.

The endings are... that point in time when you say "Okay, one more gig" and swiftly undo all the philosophy. That's one of the issues with them. The 2nd is related to how underused all the characters are. I don't care if any of them survive, because I wasn't given enough game time to do that. I also don't care about the endings because the game didn't really care about my choices - it was dead set to drag me on the roof, kicking and screaming if need be, regardless of what I chose to say or do.

So while the topics and the overall CP lore have enough depth to explore over an entire trilogy, the current approach is shallow at best. CDPR wasn't good at closing loose ends (Saskia and Iorveth say "hi!"). I don't say though that they didn't have a grandiose plan for CP2077. But the loose ends here and plot holes aren't a breach point for further content. They're this obvious because of time-constraints.

Mr. Blue Eyes and Yori's plans could... should've been better fleshed out. They chose, however, not to. The last time you meet the former is when you're hired to try and fetch another McGuffin which almost makes him a McGuffin too. We're being fed a few crumbs on Yori's past and current actions. But again, not enough to care. A deal with the Tinos to attack Militech, a long lasting disgust towards his father's vision. Why Netwatch? Why that small info about the chip in V's head being tailor-made for Saburo?

The story isn't given enough time to go deep. Nothing is. Gigs are shallow, gigs from the Queen of The Afterlife are pathetic (cus that's the best she can do, I guess?!). Characters that might've had something to add to the mix get flatlined for a quick emotional jerk reaction... To the point where you couldn't care less if "you" now is the same with "you" 1 second ago, 1 day ago, 1 engram ago.

Why can't you save anyone you try to care about? Why is it that, no matter what you do, the reason you are in the muck you're in doesn't become neither clear nor is it pushed in any way?

Let me explain a bit: Yori could've taken Johnny's shard to punish his father, by slotting it in before killin' him. That would've been quite a feat. But nope. He just took it so he could sell it to an organization we aren't being made to care about at all. That has some statues scattered around the city, some of them with enough life in them as to use their phones. WTB Logic?

Moving on, both the buggers above and VDB wanted to get their paws on the chip so they can use it to contact Alt. Mkay... and they did. Aaaand??? Nothing. A bulging blob of absolutely squat. In my playthroughs, I came out of the tub and thanked VDBs for scamming me twice. The biggest, most covert, most powerful gang in NC... wiped in under 5 minutes. Obviously, one can't do that with Netwatch, as 101933841.5 cops will spawn on your buttocks the moment you raise an eyebrow at them. But how did all this advance the going-ons further? Simple answer: they didn't. It ended up being just another silly plot device, with no depth, no purpose in the greater scheme of things.

We have hints of the still bubbling 4th Corpo War. Of Malestrom getting involved un to their red led sockets in activities that scratch the Black Wall. Of greedy corporations trying to squeeze more peeps by their nuts. But the game just let's'em all *woosh* by.

And lemme remind you of Jackie's words: "[...] Adam Smasher! LEGENDS are born in this city!". Did that guy feel or act as if he was one? With his entire 3 minutes of screen time? More like the average Saka mech with a human software. No legends, no friends, no meaningful end results. I mean, yeah, you either wreck the soul prison or add to it. Either way, things... don't change much. Saka can't give a rat's tail about what you just did to them, were you to wreck Mikoshi, as... not only they don't chase you if you run away, but you can even end up being a star of NC...

Sorry, but... as a story, it's shallow. The fact that you are going through it through 90% exposition and 10% acting isn't helping either. I do admit that it has... or rather had... huge potential. I say "had" because based on the leadership's latest mea culpa, only problem with this game are its bugs for pc and maybe poor optimization for last gen console (and even that after bragging not long ago about how the game plays incredibly smooth on them).

I am certain the creative minds of CDPR could've done much, MUCH better. Were they given enough time and better leadership.
 
That ties really well with other things we witness in game, such artificial hand enabling performing certain job, but then company may own that arm.

I appreciated Alt as some bridge between an AI and human. Writing about real AI's is hard as 1,2,4,8,16 issue set both writer and audience in very difficult place to begin with. In terms of games, in Mass Effect 1 Geth, how task force problem solving ability increased by number of linked units, but they kicked the science guys out or something, so we will never know.

Delamain is pretty much what AI's in cyberpunk tend to be but it was really worthwhile to read emails at HQ. Think how GTP-3 isn't self aware by any means but changes the Internet and labor market and is very real.
 
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