The Story is Deeper Than Originally Thought - SPOILERS

[nadsh]

Family? Friendship? Love? Those questions could be asked, if I had a family to care about. But you see... the Nomad lifepath is no different than the Corpo one Panam's story arc is good. up to the point where important decisions about their future is left in the air, with the passing of Saul. Could've been a moment where Corps would show how evil they are. Wasted. Friendship? I sure hope you talk, again, about either Panam's family or about Johnny. Cause you have no other friends, not really. And my gf pretty much disliked Panam's arc, even more so when quests overlapped each other (Mitch's call with Panam's train heist).

The found family aspect is a bit overplayed for me. V met all of the new characters over the course of 2 weeks, I didn't feel like anyone was "family" outside of Jackie, Victor, Misty and Johnny (after a point, only because he's there 24/7).

 

[CS554]

Accidently, PC Gamer published this piece today: https://www.pcgamer.com/yes-cyberpunk-2077-has-something-to-say/

Good read. And I like this quote:

It actually was. Can't resist:

" Cyberpunk isn't so much about resisting capitalism as identifying how difficult capitalism is to resist, because it simply absorbs whatever bullets you fire at it and sells them back to you at a premium."

Haven't really followed this stuff for years. Well, flashy use of language has its perks.

Genre never painted itself into a corner by ideology and that enables setting to cast light on matters and questions, like in this topic.

 

[NimmerfRoh]

What is soul?
What will soul be in the future?
How much of myself would I be ready to give up in exchange for immortality?
With immortality being one of the biggest dreams and goals of humanity - is the cost worth it?
How much of myself am I giving away to tech corps?
What is the cost of becoming one with technology?
Is it worth it to rebel against the system? Would I be capable of it?
What would I choose - saving myself or saving others? Am I capable of altruism?
What is family?
What is friendship?
How far will media & corps go to sell controversy?
What is faith?
Can you go too far with escapism and detach yourself from reality? What are the consequences?
What would I do if I found out I'm gonna die soon? Would I change anything about my life?
What are the ethical consequences of technological advancement in fields of Artificial Intelligence and brain-computer interfacing?
What does it mean to be human and when do we stop being one?
Do I need real love if I can just buy it?

That's just a quick list from the top of my head.

interesting list.
lots of these questions are to be asked about nowdays situation already or even lack an answer for quite some time.

 

[Himenoinu]

The found family aspect is a bit overplayed for me. V met all of the new characters over the course of 2 weeks, I didn't feel like anyone was "family" outside of Jackie, Victor, Misty and Johnny (after a point, only because he's there 24/7).

Every topic that could be proper food for thoughts is undersized, rushed through and just left to the player to fill in the gaps (and there are waaaaay too many of them gaps). They abuse tragedy of losing someone - Jackie, Judy's lover, Judy's friends, Saul, Goro, Alt and Rogue - pretty much anyone you meet. And it could pack a punch, if not rushed, if given enough time... Maybe also given the chance to sacrifice something of yours for their continued existence. But you have nothing, not even your own life.

And hell, yeah! The compressed timeframe is a major letdown - especially with all the mmo-ish chores scattered around. Because nothing has value in the game, everything gets treated the same. Rogue gives you just a menial tasks to do as Reggie was in the beginning (I even dare say Reggie's cyberpsychos hunt is more important - ethics wise - than any other side job you're ever given). So your rep is worth nothing. Probably why you can't sway the Tygers to give the Clouds to the Moxes - or maybe because the clans didn't make it in the final cut for such an option to be available.

V is the type of game/movie character that is pushed forward by the plot, regardless if she/he is ready or willing. Not a hero, not even a solo - given the menial tasks set to her/him by everyone and their mothers. The fact that you can't even affect your microcosm in any relevant way is demonstrated and enforced time and again. To the point where you just go "Meh! Whatever, let's just get this over with and watch the grass grow!".

On the other hand though, if they would've kept at it with the Aldecaldos, to the point where they make a dent somehow, going against Biotechnica - for their greed, for what they did to the outlying farms, etc - it would've meant something, even if time was shrunk a bit too much (for reasons that go beyond my understanding).

The conclusion I draw is that "In the CP universe you can't have friends, lovers, family, your actions don't matter, your equipment doesn't matter, your proficiencies don't matter, your street cred is worthless and so is your reputation". Either that, or the Game Master didn't have the patience or the time to let any story unfold... out for blood and for tragedy. And after reading this thread, I have to come with the addendum: "but it makes you ask yourself questions that it couldn't be arsed to formulate properly"

You know, after playing twice the Iorveth's path in TW2, both helping him and saving Triss, I could barely wait to see what consequences those actions would have in TW3. I was asking myself questions, both during the playthrough and after... And then, I went and played TW3... And I had other questions, like "Why the f*** did I even bother?" "What's the point of helping them if all you get in return is a comic book?" "Why even make it a cross-games choice?".

I don't regret playing all 4 paths in TW2. They were all nice! I see no point in playing more paths here, as the story doesn't branch out till the very end. As nothing changes in your wake. No relationships to strengthen, no moral dilemmas on the way, no way to save your spoon-fed friends. Takes a lot out of the quite impactful ending...

 

[gregski]

lots of these questions are to be asked about nowdays situation already or even lack an answer for quite some time.

Right? Noticed that too.

The game is full of symbols and metaphors, which let everyone ask their own questions and look for answers, without the game really imposing any interpretation.

 

[Barsenthor]

Accidently, PC Gamer published this piece today: https://www.pcgamer.com/yes-cyberpunk-2077-has-something-to-say/

Good read. And I like this quote:

Game has so many great themes and characters to play with its just mind blowing that all of that get dwarfed by Johnny story arc. I mean it's good, solid if somebody is for the bromace-one way story, but on DLC level.
MQ, c'mon, consumerism, corporatism, mind control as we could see with Paralez/Sandra Dorset quest line, AIs behind Blackwall, AIs pushing making people obsolete, ghost in the machine kind of problems - what humanity means in the age of cyberware, soulkiller/alter carbon dilema.

For the whole game, going through Alt mission, Sinerman, Delamein mission, Paralez missions, Takamura missions (honor and loyalty to evil corporation) i was like - why am I stuck with Johnny and his problems, and not pursuing those...

Ahhh, i just hope that in 2022 we will get far more from expansions.

 

[Himenoinu]

[...]

For the whole game, going through Alt mission, Sinerman, Delamein mission, Paralez missions, Takamura missions (honor and loyalty to evil corporation) i was like - why am I stuck with Johnny and his problems, and not pursuing those...

Ahhh, i just hope that in 2022 we will get far more from expansions.

Hoping we'll get far deeper! We got plenty, don't need more. It's jus that they're all surface level stuff. Most of the above packaged as quick commercials slipped through the pages of the otherwise interesting Johnny's journey of self-rediscovery.

The leitmotif hammered on us through and through is that "NC always wins". And the fact that the game isn't really trying to bring you a power fantasy personal story (with the ending mimicking one feeling like the most out of place of them all) is just right. What is the huuuge flaw in my eyes is the fact that, for the most part, V and Johnny don't even try to fight NC. They don't get to peel off more than one layer of this rotten onion's dozens of. And because the gigs don't scale in scope with your reputation, the feeling I'm left with at the end of Judy's arc is "Oh well, we tried! Back to petty thievery now!" even if the character has reached the highest stats allowed by the game prior to the Embers meeting.

I mean, work with/for Peralez, uncover some really stinky stuff. Connect more dots with the involuntary help of Gary... Then go back to stealing some Samurai bootleg. Go against the Tygers' bosses, but have no reaction whatsoever when the shitstorm you caused with that action gets people killed and backfires spectacularly - instead, momentarily become the agent of vengeance for some random disgruntled father. Read tons of info, hear the whole uproar Saul's plan to submit to Biotechnica has, but see nothing of it, 'cause he dies, the nomad leave and all of Biotechnica's real estate is - at this time - void of any animate objects.

I kept waiting, hoping for bigger things to happen - kinda like how Johnny was reminiscing over the 2020s, when all you needed was an invitation to go against Saka. But... they never did. Not once did I receive a task to go somewhere and prevent some dude or another getting zeroed by a corpo strike team. I did get to see the aftermath of such executions (and yeah, eliminating a few soldiers) and read a shard about why they were ordered and... pffft! Another thread not followed - the one involving Max. That kept infuriating me throughout the game - the fact that I was always coming in too late...

Accidently, PC Gamer published this piece today:

Good read indeed. And I loved this line:
"CD Projekt RED has long presented itself as an outsider studio, the quirky Polish developer with strong beliefs in consumer advocacy, who took an obscure monster hunter and transformed him into a worldwide phenomenon. That studio no longer exists. CD Projekt RED is now one of the most famous game development companies in the world, explicitly part of the culture it once purported to rail against. It's more than a coincidence that their latest game obsesses over identity crises in the face of rampant capitalism. Or, as Johnny Silverhand puts it. "Worst thing's when they switch up your identity and you never even know you've become someone else."

 

[Droladya]

Here is the definition of the word philosophy:

"The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence"

The game gets into reality and existence. If you didn't want to investigate that then it's your problem. The questions of what is reality and what constitutes existence is plastered all over the game. I'm sorry if you just can't see this.

BTW YOU are V. The game gives you the player morsels to ponder if you so desire.

I really doubt you took more than maybe a basic philosophy course. Because if you did then you should have learned one thing. It's up to each of use to learn and question. The game isn't supposed to dictate to us some answer like your want. "What have you learned?"

Instead the game motivates you to think about the issues. After all there is no proven correct answer to reality or existence.

So why didn't you just answer my question?
I will say it again.
"It just something youngman would ask himself while watching a starry night, which also the timing everyone think himself as a philosopher."
The answer game gave you is important, because I never told you that's the thing you must learn.
Let's talk with this quote.

Right? Noticed that too.

The game is full of symbols and metaphors, which let everyone ask their own questions and look for answers, without the game really imposing any interpretation.

It's not about imposing but standpoint.
Every choice have result, the implication of standpoint.
Is it right? wrong? worth?
You can also put two standpoint at conflict and show the complex.
Even in the end, do you agree the story try to told you or its basic standpoint? Why?
And NOW we are moving into the "deep" thought.

I've read a sci-fi about you should believe the god and obey the Bible, rationality and science can only destroy human itself.
It's also a standpoint, I agree part of it about human rationality has limite, disagree another part of it about we should obey the Bible, because science still the best tools we have, at least now. The doubt to sicence can't point out a clear way but only drag human into the illusion of skepticism.

That's the freedom will, you will have your own judgement, but there must be something base.
You need a standpoint.
You can shout under the starry night, ask many many questions, and what?
Stars can't give you anything, it just make you START to think.
I guess I can't ask you too much because there is rare people realized they can think in this age.
I just hope you can understand its not deep, but basic.

Just as I said
Always one step further.

I know CDPR may try to do this on purpose, maybe want avoid offend people.
But this tac also make the story only scratch.

 

[Witzzard]

Well Cyberpunk 2077 asks rather to many questions, than to few imo.
You can raise dozens of potential inteted messages, but it never gets really clear if the authors wanted to raise said questions (well at least not for all), or just stumbled over them? It's like an essay trying to cram everything together, failing to give time to have things actually have impact. Feeling as if there's no weight to the questions.

See i think there's a point as to why Repoman, Exsizenz, The Matrix, RoboCop, Bladerunner don't ask all Cyberpunk questions at once, but mostly concentrate on singular once.
And at least for me, though that might be me just not being smart enough, Cyberpunk flails around a bit too much, though i understand a 70+ hrs game might do so.

 

[Goodmongo]

So why didn't you just answer my question?
I will say it again.
"It just something youngman would ask himself while watching a starry night, which also the timing everyone think himself as a philosopher."
The answer game gave you is important, because I never told you that's the thing you must learn.
Let's talk with this quote.

What the heck does this even mean?

"It just something youngman would ask himself while watching a starry night, which also the timing everyone think himself as a philosopher."

How does that have anything to deal with the game?

 

[Droladya]

What the heck does this even mean?

"It just something youngman would ask himself while watching a starry night, which also the timing everyone think himself as a philosopher."

How does that have anything to deal with the game?

Aha, you do experience it first time.
It's not about the game, it's about you.
It's the moment you and many ancient realize that how great the universe is. The mystery of stars and the fear of dark space.
The moment they can't help but ask themselves what the hell made it.
Why there are stars? What is it? Why they shinning at the sky? Why we can't touch them?
What are we? Where are we from? What should we do? Is there any meaning of life?
It just like the moment you post this thread.
You play the game and suddenly realized that they do ask many question.
Merely realized there are many questions we can't answer can make a shock. Think these question make you feel different.
But stars hang on there since trillions year ago, everyone can see it, only few are real philosopher.
Ask question is just the first step of journey.
Ofc it's not deep.

 

[Goodmongo]

Aha, you do experience it first time.
It's not about the game, it's about you.
It's the moment you and many ancient realize that how great the universe is. The mystery of stars and the fear of dark space.
The moment they can't help but ask themselves what the hell made it.
Why there are stars? What is it? Why they shinning at the sky? Why we can't touch them?
What are we? Where are we from? What should we do? Is there any meaning of life?
It just like the moment you post this thread.
You play the game and suddenly realized that they do ask many question.
Merely realized there are many questions we can't answer can make a shock. Think these question make you feel different.
But stars hang on there since trillions year ago, everyone can see it, only few are real philosopher.
Ask question is just the first step of journey.
Ofc it's not deep.

Universe is billions not trillions of years old. everyone over the age of 10 has wondered what life means and what's instore for them.

Games seldom ask these questions. And this one asks a variation so it indeed is deeper than many other games.

 

[Droladya]

Universe is billions not trillions of years old. everyone over the age of 10 has wondered what life means and what's instore for them.

Games seldom ask these questions. And this one asks a variation so it indeed is deeper than many other games.

I think we weren't talking about how old universe is.
If you really want to talk about it, I do have some basic knowledge about it.
And I have to told you, at frontier science, there is still many mystery. The big-bang-theory is just a theory which has dominance. We still haven't proof any Grand Unified Theories.
So, why you so interested to the imaginary accounts, I believe you can understand it means "long long ago".
It's dull while you try to find the details of everyword I said for just prove I'm wrong.
Yes you can say most of the game never try to ask any questions but only care how fun it is.
But I think we talk this thread based on good game and deep game.

if you put time into it the game is surprisingly deep.

"Just for fun game" is out of my view.
I also believe you can understand I wish this game , and you, move further.
That's it, I think we finish the discussion now.

 

[Crudeo]

Yeah. The cyberspace is not really explained. But it has to function just like everything else. There's a good and bad side. From my personal take. V going with Alt, and Johnny taking the body. Is the best outcome over all the endings. Nothing directly denies that what the Relic chip is doing. V 2.0 of the chip is 100% taking your mind of the brain, and moving it. So ALT has V. V through the ENTIRE game. Fought Johnny to the end. V will do the same to ALT.

Having a 100% working body. With someone you can trust. And mind ready to recombined later. Is a lot better than the body being in the messed up state in the other endings. Or the dumbest ending of going into Mikoshi. Falling for Arasaka's BS. It's all nice and happy to have money, or be with Panam. But you're dying. You're not dying in ALT. You're trapped. While you have people who can fight to bring you back, in another story.

There's other things that give hints to the truth. When you have characters endlessly try to drill in the fact that ALT is gone. The AI contruct destroyed her. That usually is the writer trying to tell you to NOT think about the potential outs they have in their head. If this AI construct can become all powerful. V could become the same. And take over the AI body.

That's not how AIs work.

Alt state that Soulkiller does exactly what it's name implies.

You die.

There will be an engram, but it's nothing than bits and bytes.

The AI will simply assimilate the information and go on with it's plan.

BTW are you aware that Mikoshi/Soulkiller was filled with the best netrunners, lots of VIPs with valuable information as well as Saburo Arasaka himself?

If Alt is truly an AI, she is as much Alt Cunningham as we are ants. No real comparison.

As an AI you seek information, option to levy real space and ensure your constant growth and existence.

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2021

Right? Noticed that too.

The game is full of symbols and metaphors, which let everyone ask their own questions and look for answers, without the game really imposing any interpretation.

Pah...no one sees the whole picture.

This planet, the entire universe is doomed. Entropy is on its constant marsh.

If we ever ascend, in what form whatsoever, if we are still conscious and growth is unhindered possible we will end up as omnipotent beings. In a fraction of eternity we would have done and experienced everything every possible experience to the point of utter boredom and redundancy and still eternity left ahead.

What will we do then?

Repeating a hellish cycle for eternity?
Nothing and becoming one with the fabric of the universe/multiverse? The very foundation for others to repeat the cycle?
Are we "doomed" to enter the void?

 

[Guest 4519094]

 

[3lmu3rt0]

I'm sorry, what?
A game that doesn't answer any questions and leaves things open for future expansions is deep?
This is pretty much ME3 all over again, the endings were deep because people could interpret them however they wanted to.

Literally the entire souls franchise is based upon this, yet I don't see people being so negative about it, quite the opposite in fact. Seems to me a lot of y'all are just pissed that you didn't get a "happy" ending where everything is wonderful and suddenly the Cyberpunk world is not fundamentally fucked up.
Meredith Stout said it best "Only the corp gets what it wants", I mean just look at Johnny; Literally nuked Arasaka, ostensibly kicking them out of the NUSA for good and then what happens? They just get welcomed back after the unification war and NC is rebuilt pretty much exactly as it was before: Same moral rot, same rampant crime, same corporate dominion. What makes y'all think V was gonna "win" in any shape or form? We fucked with the corps, the corps fucked us back, and just like Johnny and everyone else before us death is the only thing we got to show for it.

 

[Guest 4519094]

"you think you've stepped in shit,
you've actually fallen headfirst into a cesspit"

 

[CS554]

Pah...no one sees the whole picture.

This planet, the entire universe is doomed. Entropy is on its constant marsh.

If we ever ascend, in what form whatsoever, if we are still conscious and growth is unhindered possible we will end up as omnipotent beings. In a fraction of eternity we would have done and experienced everything every possible experience to the point of utter boredom and redundancy and still eternity left ahead.

What will we do then?

Repeating a hellish cycle for eternity?
Nothing and becoming one with the fabric of the universe/multiverse? The very foundation for others to repeat the cycle?
Are we "doomed" to enter the void?

Say man that appears to be educated, intellect and fails to understand basic things. As stars, systems, even galaxies die, also new are born. Our know universe may expand, till it may start to shrink, then expand again.

Entropy is also life. We have offices filled with cubicles, no evidence ever that they increase productivity, we just has to. We has to have many things. Man that appeared to be intellect, he is ignorant, obsessed with something distant out there. How can we tell he is actually that different from a cave man, looking up for distant starts ages ago?

Many things can be said about cyberpunk, but it themes has always been relevant in our real world. It doesn't tell us what to choose, but it may put things in perspective.

 

[Rizilliant]

But, your being TOLD the story, as opposed to actually experiencing it.. And its not just a few bits, but an overwhelming amount of story is told to you, through very cheap texts, littered throughout the entire game. And yes, a whole lot is left open, or out entirely, which adds to the feelings that the game/story is lacking.

I cant agree that this adds anything as it is.

 

[gregski]

It's rather long, but I really recommend watching this review. It goes really deep and shows how much substance there is under the surface.