The Underlying Themes of the Witcher

[ReptilePZ]

Except you get a bonus to magic resistance if you gave Triss the old heave ho at the ruins, which says either she was using the Roses innate magic to snare him, or her own.

You get a bonus to your max inventory for carrying Aryan in the dungeon. And you get bonus to dealing fire damage if you get damaged by fire. You also receive a bonus to damage if you find the AC easter egg. All I'm saying is, basing plot points on an arbitrary stat bonus is stretching it a bit.

Either way it's a pretty foul thing to do to both Geralt and Yen after the last time, Yennefer was furious as I recall, it almost ended their friendship. So soon after Geralt's vision of his true love as well, there's no coincedence there.

I'm not saying Triss is innocent and wasn't taking advantage of Geralt's amnesia. All I'm saying is that in that certain situation I was addressing, Triss isn't trying to seduce Geralt, unless Geralt himself shows interest.

 

[Blothulfur]

You gain strength for carrying a heavy load and you gain fire resistance for being on fire, there is a simple cause and effect there. So to have a resist magic bonus then you've got to have resisted some form of magic as I said, either Triss' or the Roses. That's pure logic and fits perfectly with CDPR's subtle storytelling.

 

[ReptilePZ]

You gain strength for carrying a heavy load and you gain fire resistance for being on fire, there is a simple cause and effect there. So to have a resist magic bonus then you've got to have resisted some form of magic as I said, either Triss' or the Roses. That's pure logic and fits perfectly with CDPR's subtle storytelling.

You gain inventory space for carrying a man. You get bonus to dealing fire damage, not resistance to it, from being on fire. And I don't understand how seeing a dead AC character leads to damage bonus. I don't see the logic here.

 

[Kallelinski]

Witcher 1 journal entry after talking with Foltest about your relationship.

Blood of Elves Spoiler

Spoiler

Then Geralt of Rivia appeared. A witcher leading a stormy life, and tied to her good friend
Yennefer in a strange, turbulent and almost violent relationship.
Triss had watched them both and was jealous even though it seemed there was little to be
jealous of. Their relationship quite obviously made them both unhappy, had led straight to
destruction, pain and yet, against all logic ... it had lasted. Triss couldn't understand it. And it
had fascinated her. It had fascinated her to such an extent that . . .
. . . she had seduced the witcher - with the help of a little magic. She had hit on a propitious
moment, a moment when he and Yennefer had scratched at each other's eyes yet again and
had abruptly parted. Geralt had needed warmth, and had wanted to forget.
No, Triss had not desired to take him away from Yennefer. As a matter of fact, her friend was
more important to her than he was. But her brief relationship with the witcher had not
disappointed. She had found what she was looking for - emotions in the form of guilt, anxiety
and pain. His pain. She had experienced his emotions, it had excited her and, when they
parted, she had been unable to forget it. And she had only recently understood what pain is.
The moment when she had overwhelmingly wanted to be with him again. For a short while -
just for a moment - to be with him.

Near the end of Lady of the Lake and last encounter among Triss and Yennefer, Spoiler

Spoiler

It was noon, when the sorceresses arrived in Rivia, within sight of the shiny surface of
Loc Eskalott, the towers of the castle and the red roofs of the city.
'We're here,' said Yennefer. 'Rivia. What a curious and entangled destiny.'
Ciri was excited and Kelpie kept dancing and shuffling on the edge of the road. Triss
Merigold sighed unnoticed. Rather, she believed it had been unnoticed.
'Please,' Yennefer looked at he. 'What strange sounds float from you beauteous breast,
Triss. Ciri, go out and see what lies ahead.'
Triss averted her face, determined not to give Yennefer any excuse. She sis not expect it
to work. For a long time she had been sensing Yennefer's anger and aggression growing
stronger as they approached Rivia.
'You, Triss,' Yennefer mischievously insisted, 'do not blush, do not sigh, do not drool or
wiggle around in your saddle. Or is it that you think because I agreed to your request that I
want to have you with us? That I was interested in seeing you spend a meeting with an old
love? Ciri, I asked you to go on ahead. The two of us need to talk!'
'It is not a discussion, it is a lecture,' Ciri dared to argue, but under the threatening glare
from violet eyes, she immediately recoiled, clucked and galloped off on Kelpie on the road
ahead.
'You're not going to meet a loved one, Triss,' Yennefer continued. 'I am not so noble or
stupid enough to give you the opportunity, or him the temptation. But just for today. I could
not deny myself the sweet satisfaction. He knows what role you play as a member of the
Lodge. He will thank you for that with his famous look. And I'll be looking at your quivering
lips and trembling hands, I will listen to your lame apologies and excuses. And you know
what, Triss? I will faint with delight.'
'I knew,' Triss grunted. 'That you would not forget, that you would take your revenge. I
agreed to this, because I was actually at fault. But one thing I must tell you, Yennefer. Do
not count too much on fainting. He knows how to forgive.'
'He knows what was done to him, of course,' Yennefer narrowed her eyes. 'But he will
never forgive you for what was done to Ciri. And me.'
'It is possible,' Triss swallowed. 'He may not forgive. Especially if you insist. But he
won't fly into a rage. He won't lower himself like that.'
Yennefer flicked her horse with her whip in anger. The animal whinnied and leapt and the
sorceress swayed in her saddle.
'Enough talk,' she snapped. 'more humility, you smug viper! He is my man, mine and only
mine! Do you understand? You have to stop talking about him, to stop thinking about him,
you have to stop admiring his noble character... As of right now, right now! Oh I want to grab
you by your matted red hair...'
'Try it!' screamed Triss. 'Just try it, you vindictive bitch and I'll scratch out your eyes!' I...'

I don't really want to write everything again, because many things were already discussed in this thread, so interpretate it how you want.

 

[ReptilePZ]

If this is addressed at me, as I've already said, I do not deny that Triss is using Geralt's amnesia to get close to him. Just that in the elven bath scene, everything's up to Geralt - Triss is not the one to initiate the romance scene.

 

[Blothulfur]

Extra inventory = carrying more.
On fire = mastery over fire.
Witness famous assassin = gain bonus to backstab.
Gain resistance to magic from what exactly? Triss or the roses magic, come on that's the only logical explanation, don't be blind to the truth. Unless you've got another explanation of where that bonus comes from, we don't get it if we give in to Triss' or the flowers mind control.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Extra inventory = carrying more.
On fire = mastery over fire.
Witness famous assassin = gain bonus to backstab.

Following that logic:

Deny a mage's proposal = gain magic resist

I still don't understand how witnessing a dead assassin would give you a bonus to backstabbing. Or how suffering fire damage allows you to deal more damage of the same kind. By that logic, shouldn't Geralt get a bonus to dealing magical damage when he resisted a spell ?

 

[Blothulfur]

Well I wouldn't call it a proposal, I would call Triss' attempt a glamour or charm, but yes i'm glad you agree. There's no other logical explanation.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Well I wouldn't call it a proposal, I would call Triss' attempt a glamour or charm, but yes i'm glad you agree. There's no other logical explanation.

I added a bit to my previous post. Please, address that concern as well .

 

[ReptilePZ]

Well I wouldn't call it a proposal, I would call Triss' attempt a glamour or charm, but yes i'm glad you agree. There's no other logical explanation.

I do not agree that a random stat boost proves that Triss used a spell to charm the witcher. Is saying no the same as resisting a charm spell now? I believe a stat boost like that is much more general and has no meaning in terms of the plot.

 

[Blothulfur]

Ask the developers, they decide on when to add these things but they all follow a simple formula of cause and effect, which is all to easy to comprehend in the list I made above. Ergo there's got to be some impetus for gaining the resist magic ability, and resisting Triss or the flowers glamour is the only variable in that situation.

To really simplify it down to the laymans level, though I refuse to believe you're this thick, Pyromaniac is a man who likes fire - thus Geralt by embracing the flames gains mastery over it. Assassination secretive killing - thus Geralt gains a bonus to the traditional form of such murder, the backstab. Strong back, thanks to dragging the young Aryan LaValette around the dungeons, while yourself recovering from torture and brutality - you gain strength and an increased inventory limit.

I really can't explain it any more simply than that, if you wish to call it Geralts mutations reacting to outside stimuli or what have you then that's fine. The plain hard fact remains you gain that boost by saying no to Triss, that is undeniable, thus magic was used.

 

[Kallelinski]

If this is addressed at me, as I've already said, I do not deny that Triss is using Geralt's amnesia to get close to him. Just that in the elven bath scene, everything's up to Geralt - Triss is not the one to initiate the romance scene.

No, i didn't want to address this to anyone or else i had quoted someone, just wanted to underline what was stated.


I also think that the magic resistance is an indication for Triss' seduction, as you [Blothulfur] said it fits the pattern.

 

[goopit]

Geralt did act rather strangely,getting horny just after falling down a hole,maybe they spent an hour or so there he got those ideas.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Ask the developers, they decide on when to add these things but they all follow a simple formula of cause and effect, which is all to easy to comprehend in the list I made above. Ergo there's got to be some impetus for gaining the resist magic ability, and resisting Triss or the flowers glamour is the only variable in that situation.

I disagree. If just witnessing a dead assasing gives you a bonus to backstab damage (the guy didn't give Geralt training, he was just being dead), then why is it absolutely impossible to gain magical bonuses when just talking to a mage, without any charming going on?

To really simplify it down to the laymans level, though I refuse to believe you're this thick, Pyromaniac is a man who likes fire - thus Geralt by embracing the flames gains mastery over it. Assassination secretive killing - thus Geralt gains a bonus to the traditional form of such murder, the backstab. Strong back, thanks to dragging the young Aryan LaValette around the dungeons, while yourself recovering from torture and brutality - you gain strength and an increased inventory limit.

I'm not going to comment on how I don't want to believe something about your mental capabilities based on how you're willing to take a stat boost as a main defence for your point. I'm not saying that the stat bonuses don't follow some logic but that logic is way too abstarct to use such a stat as proof that Triss is casting a spell on Geralt. By doing this, you're moving from the abstact to the concrete. Naming of the Pyromaniac skill aside, gainig bonus to DEALING fire damage by TAKING such damage doesn't follow the logic of gaining a bonus to magic RESISTANCE from, again, TAKING such "damage".

I really can't explain it any more simply than that, if you wish to call it Geralts mutations reacting to outside stimuli or what have you then that's fine. The plain hard fact remains you gain that boost by saying no to Triss, that is undeniable, thus magic was used.

No need to explain it more simply, I fully understand what you're saying. I just disagree with it. There's an awful lot of assumption here to call your theory a "plain hard fact". But ok, let's assume that Triss is indeed trying to charm the witcher into loving her. If you decide to reassure her that you don't wish to lose her, then that means her spell has been sucessful - thus, no stat boost. Would that not mean then that Geralt would never want to let any harm come to his loved one, in this case Triss? Then why would the game still give you a choice to not save Triss at Loc Muinne? OK, let's assume that Geralt has managed to finally resist the charm spell, would that not result in gaining the magic resistance bonus then, if it's so central to the plot?

 

[ReptilePZ]

Geralt did act rather strangely,getting horny just after falling down a hole,maybe they spent an hour or so there he got those ideas.

Geralt only gets "horny" if you make him do so.

 

[ReptilePZ]

I also think that the magic resistance is an indication for Triss' seduction, as you said it fits the pattern.

I didn't say that, Blothulfur did.

 

[Blothulfur]

I disagree. If just witnessing a dead assasing gives you a bonus to backstab damage (the guy didn't give Geralt training, he was just being dead), then why is it absolutely impossible to gain magical bonuses when just talking to a mage, without any charming going on?



I'm not going to comment on how I don't want to believe something about your mental capabilities based on how you're willing to take a stat boost as a main defence for your point. I'm not saying that the stat bonuses don't follow some logic but that logic is way too abstarct to use such a stat as proof that Triss is casting a spell on Geralt. By doing this, you're moving from the abstact to the concrete. Naming of the Pyromaniac skill aside, gainig bonus to DEALING fire damage by TAKING such damage doesn't follow the logic of gaining a bonus to magic RESISTANCE from, again, TAKING such "damage".


No need to explain it more simply, I fully understand what you're saying. I just disagree with it. There's an awful lot of assumption here to call your theory a "plain hard fact". But ok, let's assume that Triss is indeed trying to charm the witcher into loving her. If you decide to reassure her that you don't wish to lose her, then that means her spell has been sucessful - thus, no stat boost. Would that not mean then that Geralt would never want to let any harm come to his loved one, in this case Triss? Then why would the game still give you a choice to not save Triss at Loc Muinne? OK, let's assume that Geralt has managed to finally resist the charm spell, would that not result in gaining the magic resistance bonus then, if it's so central to the plot?

I can't possibly decide where the developers place these things, or what logic they attribute to gaining them, but the fact is that by seeing Ezio or whoever he is you gain the backstab bonus. By carrying Aryan you gain that inventory bonus. By being on fire you gain that fire bonus. By saying no to Triss you gain a resist magic bonus, that is plain fact.

I don't see what is abstract in plain cause and effect, seems fairly simple to me looking at it from an unbiased viewpoint.

Whether it is Triss' intentional enchantment giving Geralt an emotional nudge at this point or the Roses of Remembrance exerting their influence, which as a wise and knowledgable sorceress Triss must have known of, magic was used against Geralt thus giving him a bonus to magic resistance when he spurns Triss, simple cause and effect.

I don't think it was a particularly large plot point or central to the plot and have never stated as such, it was a subtle enchantment that Triss cast or took advantage of, one that might or might not work on Geralt. That probably would not travel beyond that glade, but that's supposition, based only on the fact that Triss wanted to accompany Geralt there.

If you have a logical alternate explanation that makes more sense than mine, i'd be eager to hear it.

Edit: Off to get pissed, be back in a few hours.

 

[ReptilePZ]

I can't possibly decide where the developers place these things, or what logic they attribute to gaining them, but the fact is that by seeing Ezio or whoever he is you gain the backstab bonus. By carrying Aryan you gain that inventory bonus. By being on fire you gain that fire bonus. By saying no to Triss you gain a resist magic bonus, that is plain fact.

I don't see what is abstract in plain cause and effect, seems fairly simple to me looking at it from an unbiased viewpoint.

Whether it is Triss' intentional enchantment giving Geralt an emotional nudge at this point or the Roses of Remembrance exerting their influence, which as a wise and knowledgable sorceress Triss must have known of, magic was used against Geralt thus giving him a bonus to magic when he spurns Triss, simple cause and effect.

I don't think it was a particularly large plot point or central to the plot and have never stated as such, it was a subtle enchantment that Triss cast or took advantage of, one that might or might not work on Geralt. That probably would not travel beyond that glade, but that's supposition, based only on the fact that Triss wanted to accompany Geralt there.

If you have a logical alternate explanation that makes more sense than mine, I'd be eager to hear it.

Yes, I do and I already presented it. I think that, just like all of the other stats, this one is chosen based on a general idea - Geralt dealing with fire giving him an ability that has something to do with fire, Geralt witnessing an assassin giving him a bonus that has something in common with what assassins do, Geralt turning down a mage giving him a bonus that has something to do with what mages do.

By saying that this is a subtle hint that has an effect on the story, I then expect there to be a consistency. And in the situation I assumed Geralt was indeed charmed by Triss, I found no consistency.

The abstract part of the cause and effect is in the effect. Gaining a backstab bonus by witnessing a dead assassin is a very general. If said assassin was alive and Geralt managed to backstab him and the got that same bonus, then I'd say it is directly related to what's happening in the given situation. Which is why I believe that getting a magic resist bonus by not reassuring Triss that you won't leave her behind (you're not even denying it, you're just changing the subject) is not the only explanation.

I think it is here that I must make a very important note. I am not saying that it makes no sense or that it is impossible for this to be the case. All I'm saying is that since it's a very generic stat increase, it could mean anything so it's unrealistic to expect me to believe that Triss is trying to charm Geralt by using magic based on that stat boost alone.

 

[Blothulfur]

So you agree with me that there is no abstraction at all, it is merely a logical system of cause and effect, you deny Triss and gain a bonus to magic resistance the same as with all the other perks, therefore if you have a better idea of whom or what is casting magic on Geralt present your hypothesis. Mine works, and takes into account all of the variables of the situation, as for the magic having effect beyond the elven ruins, as I said I don't think Triss would use such blatant magic against Geralt, in my opinion she's taking advantage of a natural phenomenon to nudge the Witcher into a situation.

If you wish to challenge my hypothesis explain where magic is being used against Geralt in that scene. The stat increase is not generic it's specific, just as weight, fire and assassination are specific in the other perks so magic is specific to this one. Ergo it must be being used in the vicinity of that scene against Geralt.

My logic is as usual flawless, as am I.

 

[ReptilePZ]

So you agree with me that there is no abstraction at all, it is merely a logical system of cause and effect, you deny Triss and gain a bonus to magic resistance the same as with all the other perks, therefore if you have a better idea of whom or what is casting magic on Geralt present your hypothesis. Mine works, and takes into account all of the variables of the situation, as for the magic having effect beyond the elven ruins, as I said I don't think Triss would use such blatant magic against Geralt, in my opinion she's taking advantage of a natural phenomenon to nudge the Witcher into a situation.

If you wish to challenge my hypothesis explain where magic is being used against Geralt in that scene. The stat increase is not generic it's specific, just as weight, fire and assassination are specific in the other perks so magic is specific to this one. Ergo it must be being used in the vicinity of that scene against Geralt.

My logic is as usual flawless, as am I.

How do I agree there's no abstracion? There is no magic used against Geralt in that scene because a stat boost is too general and you can't possibly base a whole plotline on a random stat - that's my point, are you even reading my posts? All I agree is that you theory is one possibility but certainly not the only explanation. Another explanation, as I've said, is simply random stat assignment because of how general the whole notion is.

Just like how Geralt gaining a backstabbing bonus doesn't mean Geralt was backstabbing somebody (which would be specific, yet that doesn't happen so it's clearly very much abstract) at that very moment, so does Geralt getting a magic resistance bonus not mean that magic is being used on Geralt. The reason for Geralt getting a bonus to backstabbing isn't what is happening but because an assassin is involved. The same can be applied to the bath situation. Geralt isn't gaining the magic resist bonus because of what's happening but because a mage is involved. I presented you with another example that does the exact opposite thing of what, if it was specific, it is supposed to do - Geralt being damaged by fire giving him fire attack bonus instead of resistance. Which means getting damaged by a certain type of attack does not necesserily equal Geralt receiving resistace bonuses from that attack type. So if we were to assume that magic was being cast at Geralt, by the logic of the fire damage perk, he'd get bonus to dealing magical damage, not resistance. Just because you choose to ignore these contradictions and obvious generalisations of the stat boosts in the game does not prove you right. I'm afraid that your logic, much like every human being, is not flawless.

I assume you were sarcastic in that statement since you seem to be above such blind arrogance.

Anyway, maybe you're right and CDPR did put that in there to hint at such an action by Triss. Maybe I'm right and the devs put that in so that the player gets some generic bonus for finally deciding it's time to focus on Yen instead of Triss. Maybe we're both wrong and the devs meant something completely different that neither of us can see.

Most likely, however, is that it's all down to how we interpret it. If an arbitrary stat boost is enough for you, that's fine, I'm done arguing about it. If you still wish to continue the conversation, do PM me. But I honestly don't see the point in continuing this discussion, especially in this thread that has nothing to do with it, since there are so many explanations to this and in the end it all boils down to personal interpretation of the situation.

I am looking forward to your next post on the Underlying Themes of the Witcher - the posts so far have been great, even if I think you're reading too much into some things here and there.