The unfulfilled love between Yennefer and Ciri and an incomplete family

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The unfulfilled love between Yennefer and Ciri and an incomplete family

Before I start with the actual thread I want to say that I wouldn't have created this thread, if my own haven't been close for now over a week. This concerns foremost Yennefer in my opinion, so I tried to keep and discuss it there, as I said, one thread for everything for her instead of many. I didn't want to spam the forum with countless threads, but now I can't talk about anything about her character, beaten by my own logic.

But now I don't know when or if at all my thread gets ever unlocked again, could be days, could weeks, coud be never, yet this issue is very important to me, so I want to give this matter an own thread to get its the attention it deserves, separated from the rest, because it is actually about 3 characters.


So, now coming to the actual issue of this thread, as the title gave it away, in my opinion there is something missing between Ciri and Yennefer, it's the relationship we can see Geralt and Ciri has, but Ciri and Yennefer doesn't, even though they should.

Yes, Ciri is Geralt's destiny and we have seen in books and game that they are important for each of them, but there is also Ciri and Yennefer.

Yennefer, whose most desire wish was to have a child, got it in the form of Ciri. It was her child, she called her daughter and Ciri called her mother (or even mommy). Something Ciri never said to Geralt, father. It was always Geralt, but Yennefer was a mother for her. Yennefer cares for her as she is her own flesh and blood.

It's not like CDPR didn't try to show that in their game. There are several instances that show how emotionally Yennefer cares about Ciri, even to the point in doing a crime to find, save and rescue her.
It's actually Ciri, who seems to be the one not really caring about her anymore and I can't imagine how that must feel, if your own child doesn't return those feelings. But before I begin to explain what the game did and what it didn't, I want to outline their relationship in the books, giving you a little bit of more context.

Yennefer was desperate to find a cure for her infertility, she tried everything and failed, but at one point she had to accept that it might never work:
Sword of Destiny
"Excuse my boldness and my frankness, Yennefer. It's written on your faces, I don't even need to read your thoughts. You were made for each other, you and the witcher. But nothing will come of it. Nothing. I'm sorry."
"I know." Yennefer turned a little pale. "I know, Villentretenmerth. But I too would like to believe that there is no limit as to what's possible or at least that this limit is very distant."

Some people argue that she not only wanted a child, but only a child with Geralt, what made it even worse, since both are infertile, but that's just an interpretation, yet then came Ciri in Geralt's life and in her life.

It is not a coincidence that Ciri has ashen blond hair, a mixture of white and black, a mixture of Geralt and Yennefer.

While Geralt never tried to be an actual father to her and Ciri also never tried to see a father in him, though both of them really care for each other, but it was always Geralt and Ciri.
But what about Yennefer and her? Well, it wasn't just Ciri and Yennefer, on the contrary it went much deeper on an emotional way. While Geralt and Ciri had their fate thing, Yennefer and Ciri were bond by emotions, like only a mother and child can have, in my opinion just a strong as fate can be in this world. Yennefer shows that and also Ciri shows that.

To understand what I mean, I have to quote some sections of the books. If you haven't read them, be careful as I will also post quotes from the last book, Lady of the Lake, and also its ending. I put the quotes in pds off-site, so this post doesn't contain 90% book quotes, I also summarized them as the source books, so o if you have read already some books, but not all, you won't see something involuntary and spoiler yourself unnecessarily.

Ciri's and Yennefer's relationship and its progression in the books:

Yennefer and Ciri meets the first time at the temple of Melitele, Geralt brought Ciri to Nenneke, after Triss couldn't help her much with her special gift, Geralt had to contact Yennefer (what he should have done in the first place, duh), as she is more experience with those things and so she came at his behest to teach Ciri how to deal with her magical abilities.

@Scholdarr.452 made a list of important quotes about Yennefer and Ciri, so I will just put them here, just read them to get a feel for their unique relationship. I will highlight sections to underline the important messages. I will also add some quotes of my own.

More important book quotes about Yennefer (should help people who haven't read the books yet to understand her motivations and character better)

Blood of Elves

Times of Contempt

The Tower of the Swallow

The Lady of the Lake


And my favourite in The Lady of the Lake and my signature:
“That ugly scar on your face,” Sile said indifferently, “we will magically remove or disguise. You will be a beautiful and mysterious woman, and I guarantee that Tancred Thyssen will go crazy for you. We will have to invent some personal details. Cirilla is a nice name and not so rare, so you can keep it. But you still need a last name. I would not be against it, if you used mine.”
“Or mine,” Lady Owl said covering the smile on the corner of her lips. “Cirilla Eilhart also sounds nice.”
“That name,” the hall rang with the silvery voice of the elven queen, “is pretty in any combination. And each of us here would love to have a daughter like you, Zireael, Swallow with the eyes of a hawk. You are the body and the blood of Lara Dorren. Each of us would give everything, even this Lodge and the fate of the kingdoms around the world, to have such a daughter. However, it is impossible. We know that it is impossible.
So we envy Yennefer.”

"each of us", but Ciri didn't choose just one of them, but...

“Thank you, Lady Philippa,” Ciri said after a few moments, squeezing the head of the sphinxes in her hands. “I also feel honoured with the proposal to take the surname de Tancarville. However, it seems to me that my new last name is the only thing that I can choose for myself, I thank the two mistresses. But I want to be called Cirilla of Vengerberg, daughter of Yennefer.”

Only her mother and also not 'of Rivia'.

“Ha!” A sorceress flashed her teeth, who Ciri guessed to be Sabrina Glevissig of Kaedwen. “Tancred Thyssen will be a fool if he does not marry her. If he instead choose another princess, he would be a fool and blind, not to recognise the diamond among the glass beads Yenna, I envy you. And you know how sincere I can be with my envy.”
Yennefer thanked her with a gesture. Without a shadow of a smile.

For good reason :)


“Does anyone here,” Yennefer said ominously, dragging her words, “dare doubt the word of my daughter?”

[...]

“Lady Yennefer,” Ciri whispered. “It means…”
“Come, my daughter,” Yennefer whispered back. “Geralt is waiting for is and it is a long road ahead.”

You can't imagine how much I wish this were in the game :(


Anyway, if I look through all books again, I could maybe cite even much more than Scholdarr.452 already did, but I think you get it, at least I hope so.

Those three are a family, each one of them would risk their life for the other one and Geralt and Yennefer were already ready to do it for her sake, and at the same time Ciri would have done everything to prevent that, and all three of them still do.

However the game shows indeed a really deep relation between Geralt and Ciri, we see it in several moments. Several times we see Geralt and Ciri, they even do quests together, but what about her mother?
She is nowhere to be found, even though she is finall in her grasp.

Since Yennefer regained her memory all she did was finding Ciri, while Geralt was playing "family" in W1 and playing politics in W2, but even though she does everyone she can do to find her, the reward is just pathetic compared to what she did for her. She gets absolute no credit for it, even worse she is even being insulted by many for what she does, without thinking about why she does it, but the worst part? Nobody says 'thank you' to her, not even Geralt or Ciri, in the end it is Yennefer, who thanks Geralt for bringing her back.

People falsely accuse her of working together with Emhyr, but she only use his ressources to find her, she never tried to find her for him, but for her sake. In the end it is Geralt, you, who can bring her to Emhyr or not.

She just used any ressource she could find to find her, save her, rescue her. Why? Because it's her daughter.

And yet, what does she get for all her effort, for all her work, for all her sacrifices, for all her denouncing by others? This:


A hug, a very emotional hug to be accurate, but still it's just one hug and what does the game offer else for her? What does Ciri actually say about her?

When we finally find Ciri on that Isle of Mist, her first question isn't about Yennefer, but about Avallac'h?!?!



Yes, it is mentioned 2-3 times that Ciri was looking for Geralt and Yennefer, she even does it in this dialogue,





yet when she finally meets Geralt, she wonders where Avallac'h is instead of her mother? She doesn't even ask how she is...



Just Geralt and Ciri or all three, the whole family? :(

sigh, after that Ciri teleports them back to Kaer Morhen, where they are finally together again. We see an emotional hug, see a side of Yennefer, she almost never show, pure emotion. Something she was taught is a weakness long ago, but she didn't care anymore. She let everything out and was almost overly emotional, for someone who always keeps her composure, she was overfilled with emotions:


She even says then:


but what comes after that? Almost nothing. After all that time, all that struggle, they finally find each other, the family is finally united, but they do absolute nothing together, why? Just why?
Ciri doesn't even call her mother or Lady Yennefer and Yen doesn't call her my daughter or my ugly little owl or whatever it is translated in your language. In German it's Eulchen, a cute little owl. Just look at that owl:



Yennefer even tells Ciri that she should be happy that she doesn't need magic to look already beautiful.

Why not like this:
I`m finally found you after all these years my love
I`m so happy, I have been trying to get in touch with you for so long
Let me look at you………you`ve grown up, I`m shaking and crying can`t believe it, you are beautiful.
Haha you forgot, there's nothing more pathetic than sorceress in tears, mother
Shut up ugly one, i`m never gonna let you go again
I missed you mother

but what comes after that? Almost nothing. After all that time, all that struggle, they finally find each other, the family is finally united, but they do absolute nothing together, why? Just why?

When I compare that to the books... I mean, I hoped it would be like there, Geralt, Yennefer and Ciri on 3 horses doing their business as a family, but despite we have finally Yennefer in the game, it's only Geralt and Ciri doing their business...

After the Battle of Kaer Morhen Ciri wants revenge, she asks Geralt to come with her, to kill Imlerith.

First, why is Geralt sleeping in the big hall instead of with Yennefer, when he is back to his love of life? It would be a good situation to let Yennefer explain, why Ciri should see Emhyr at least once and then decide what she wants to do. It would also give Yennefer the time to explain herself, why she thinks it is something Ciri has to think about.
Anyway, Ciri asks Geralt to come with her to kill him, they go, meet and kill him (and 2 witches), all of it without Yennefer.

After killing Imlerith they sit together and talk a bit:


That's it again and someone is just missing...


After that fight you go to Novigrad and when you meet Yennefer, you will talk about that fight with Imlerith and it shows again how much trust Yennefer have in both of them:

Yet, Geralt is surprised and Ciri doesn't even mention it near Yennefer nor does she.

The next scene about them and the family is, when the Lodge wants to talk with Ciri. Geralt can go with Ciri to meet the rest of the Lodge or wait and let Ciri talk with them alone. First of all I don't understand why Yennefer isn't part of this in the first place, especially if you consider that she is a sorceress, she knows what the Lodge wanted and wants from her now and she was the one in the books going with Ciri, because she actually knew what to do in this situation. This would have been also the best moment to implement the "But I want to be called Cirilla of Vengerberg, daughter of Yennefer.” quote....

If Geralt decides to let Ciri do it alone, Yennefer joins him, because she is of course worried about her, it is clearly visible in her gestures, facial expression and acting:

When Ciri comes back she says again that:


The whole scene is really great though, especially when Ciri comments again about how both of them haven't changed a bit, the second time. I was relieved to hear that, because it meant that it is how it was in the books, but to be honest it isn't. It's like Yennefer is almost excluded from this family, dragged away from them like she doesn't have a place with them anymore and the next scene even illustrate it:


This scene perfectly describes the unfulfilled love between Yennefer and her family, while Geralt and Ciri are having fun, Yennefer is excluded from them. Why? Just why? Why can't she just be part of it? Looking at them like she isn't allowed to join them, having fun with them, with her family.

I was always in favour of Yennefer, I love her character, I love that family, yet all my Geralt's devotion to her, to this family, isn't making a difference. She is being excluded from them despite what she did, does and would do for them. Is this really what she deserved after all of this? To be the third wheel?

She is the black one in this" white - ash blonde - black" constellation, one of the core elements in this, without it, it isn't the same anymore.

Why do you deny her her family? She is so close to them, yet so far apart from them than ever.

Even if she had a similiar scene with her alone, it wouldn't be the same, as when the three of them were together as it should be.

Ciri was the glue that kept them together and not drift them apart.

And so I already come to the last scene with them, when all three of them actually do a quest together, finally, when visiting Avallac'h's laboratory.

I think it was a nice gesture that while Geralt and Ciri are actually wrecking the laboratory, Yennefer did it in a more "ladylike" manner. At the beginning of the quest we can even see/listen how they talk with each other without Geralt, the very first time and sadly the last time:

But wait, there is still another scene, you will only see, if you say "no" to Ciri, when she asks to visit Skjall's grave. Only if you tell her that there is no time, there will be another Yennefer-Ciri moment, how sad is that?



And that's it, the last scene with all 3 of them together. How depressing is that? You mean it could be worse? It is worse, since there is that ending with "Something ends. Something begins II".

Several months later, Ciri wants to have one last time a good day before she goes to Nilfgaard to take the throne, but again only with Geralt, again Yennefer is excluded, because why not, it's just her mother. While Geralt and Ciri are having fun, she stays at the inn...it's supposed to be 'the Goodbye' to her and Yennefer is not with them?!
Ciri doesn't even tell her goodbye, she just leaves her, her own daughter goes without saying a single word to her, even Geralt isn't amused about that.





Sigh.


So many of us waited 2 games, several years to finally see the three together, yet it's like the game doesn't want it, almost like it forbid them to be together as a family. Why is so hard to show them as a family? Why is there not a single scene in the game that show them like this:



source


source


source


source



Why do we have to make the family ingame become reality? The game should have done that in the first place and not avoid it by all means.






Some people are even making fun of it, because otherwise they can't handle how this is treated by the game. It's just their way to deal with this problem:

The Truth is a shard of ice why Ciri doesn't call Yen mother in the game.

:geraltsad:: Why don't you call me daddy? Why?
:cirisad:: I can't
:geraltsad:: Whyyyy? You're breaking my heart. You're calling Yen mother and always ignore me.
:cirisad:: I can't. I mean it.
:geraltthatsgood:: Then don't call Yennefer mother either or I will leave you at this Island, alone against Wild Hunt. Ignore her or you will be alone forever!
:cirisad:: Please...Geralt...don't do it. Okay, I'll do as you say. But...can I just hug her? Can I say how I missed her?

:geraltthatsgood:: NO.
:cirisad:: I'm so sorry, mum...


There is really only one moment, where you can see Ciri being happy to see Geralt and Yennefer, all three of them being together again, this:
I agree - here she looks kinda in shock or is that happiness?

and then compare all of this with just one book quote from Blood of Elves:
'Ciri!' She felt the coarse, unpleasant, still coolness of stone on her back and head.
She did not remember sitting down. Yennefer was kneeling next to her.
Gently, but decisively, she straightened her fingers, pulled her hand away from her cheek.
The cheek throbbed, pulsated with pain.
'Mama...' groaned Ciri. 'Mama... How it hurts! Mommy...'
The magician touched her face. Her hand was as cold as ice. The pain stopped.
'I saw...' the girl whispered, closing her eyes, 'the things I saw in the dreams...
A black knight... Geralt... And also... You... I saw you, Lady Yennefer!'
'I know.'
'I saw you... I saw how...'
'Never again. You will never see that again. You will never dream about it again.
I will give you the force to push those nightmares away.
That is why I have brought you here, Ciri, to show you that force.
Tomorrow, I am going to start giving it to you.'

...

Ciri sniffed. 'I have already seen a war,' she whispered.
'I do not want to see another. Never. I do not want to be alone again.
I do not want to be frightened. I do not want to lose everything again.
I do not want to lose Geralt… and you, Lady Yennefer.
I do not want to lose you. I want to stay with you. And him. Always.'
'You will.' The magician’s voice trembled a little.
'And I am going to be with you, Ciri. Always. I promise you.'



What do I have to do to make you, CDPR, aware of this? To think about it? Change it for the better like you are already trying with other things?

I have seen with Geralt and Ciri that you can show the love between them, why not do the same for Yennefer and Ciri or even better for those three together?



I did similiar posts already in my other thread, but sadly since that thread is solely dedicated to Yennefer, I have the feeling that this problem doesn't get the attention it deserves, especially not by CDPR, who are apparently sorry, that we perceive it like this, but don't have the guts to say that they will look into it and change it, like they already did with other things.

You can read those posts over there, I don't want to rewrite and post them here along, just small excerpts:
[...]

Not that it was taken from Yennefer in favour of Triss, but it wasn’t given enough to Yennefer, to make the family whole again.

She is her mother, there is nothing more extraordinary than a bond between a mother and its child. Only Geralt’s relation to her is just as important as hers, because of fate.

She was willing to die for her just like Geralt, but the game doesn’t really show that, in fact you could get the impression that only Geralt would do everything for Ciri, but this isn’t the case.

You already tried to show that Yennefer would do ANYTHING for her, but Geralt and other characters are the ones, who don’t show the same devotion like Yennefer does in some quests, which shows her in a bad light, even though you didn't want to do it. In fact they even question her almost every time and everywhere.

[...]

But not everything is perfect, what i don't love is that the world around her doesn't honour her character, doesn't honour your own work on her and as i said it hurts the most that Geralt and Ciri doesn't honour her the same way they do in the books.

I feel that i have the responsibility to say that to you, you tried to show the best Yennefer you can, but forgot the world around her.

This is the Yennefer I miss, the one you barely show, the one Geralt and Ciri don’t acknowledge. It hurts to see that Ciri doesn’t show her feelings to Yennefer the way she does to Geralt.

This is missing, seeing Yennefer and Ciri together as mother and daughter.

[...]

[...]

Where is her motherly side? One of the key issues in the books was that she wanted a child and Ciri is that child, so despite being this such an important issue, it is barely covered by the game. Yes, we see one single daughter/mother moment, when you bring back Ciri to Kaer Morhen and maybe when you go to the laboratory, but that's it. How is that comparable to what we have seen in the books?

Sure, the bond between Geralt and Ciri is really important and formed by destiny, but a bond between a mother and her child is something extraordinary. Something we see every day in our own life and here it is even more crucial, because Yennefer can’t have children, yet she always wanted one.
She is doing all those “awful” things to find her, to save her, because of that bond, yet the game barely represents it.

[...]

At the end I hope that not only those, who have read the books and/or romance Yennefer, see this problem and could care about it, even support it the way others did with other causes.
And I hope that the mods don't just trash this thread, lock it and throw it away, I want to reach CDPR with this, but I can't do this hidden in a group section and hidden in a locked thread. I want to do this publicy, on a public forum, this forum and not with annoying private messages.

@GingerEffect @REDDorigen @Marcin Momot @theta77

So where is your love for Yennefer? For this family?


(Now I really had to see this scene to make this screenshot, I swore to myself to not watch it...)


Since my other thread got locked, because of too many offtopic posts, I ask, no I beg you to keep it civil and stick to the topic "The unfulfilled love between Yennefer and Ciri and an incomplete family".
 
Ciri finally realized that it was not only fear squeezing her throat. The sorcerer was magically strangling her.

He was mocking and humiliating her before the eyes of his
followers.

‘Release... Yennefer,’ she managed to get out, coughing with the effort.
‘Release her... And you
can do whatever you want with me.’

Bonhart burst out laughing. Skellen started to laugh drily. Vilgefortz poked the corner of his macabre eye with his little finger.

‘You cannot be so foolish to think that I cannot do whatever I want with you regardless. Your offer is pathetic and ridiculous.’

‘You need me...’ she raised her head, though it cost her a lot of strength.
‘To have a child
with me. Everybody wants that and so do you. Yes, I am in your power, but I came here on my own...
You did not catch me, although you chased me halfway around the world.
I came here
on my own and I gave myself to you. For Yennefer. For her life. Does this seem ridiculous to you?
Then try to take me by force, try to take me the hard way... We will see how fast you lose your desire to laugh.’

Yennefer of Vengerberg and her relationship with Ciri
Andrzej Sapkowski ~ Blood of Elves - Chapter Seven
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0LGfPlWd7bAVGNiY1N5NS1xaGc/view


Yennefer and her dark sad fight with sterility from the short stories:
http://imgur.com/a/yn4U9


The Last Wish - Voice of Reason 6 - Geralt and Nenneke talk about Yennefer [3 spoilers]


The Bounds of Reason - Dorregaray, Geralt and Yennefer have a conversation about mankind [3 spoilers]



The Bounds of Reason - Yennefer asks Geralt to kill the golden dragon as it might help curing her [1 spoiler]



The Bounds of Reason - Geralt and Yennefer speak with Villentretenmerth who confirms their fears [1 spoiler]



A Shard of Ice - Geralt and Yennefer talk about their relationship, Yennefer mentions her infertility [1 spoiler]


Something More - Yennefer falls into darkness [1 spoiler]


Yennefer passages from the first six chapters of Blood of Elves: http://imgur.com/a/qqVb8
Includes 2 spoilers where Dandelion tells the story about Ciri, Geralt and Yennefer, 7 spoilers where Yennefer saves Dandelion's life and then they talk together, 2 spoilers where Triss and Geralt talk about Yenna, 1 spoiler
with Yennefer's letter to Geralt, 2 spoilers where "Ciri and Yennefer fight their nigthmares together", 2 spoilers where Vilgefortz, Tissaia and Terranova talk about Yennefer and Geralt (and Ciri), 1 spoiler where Geralt meets with the man who was threatening Ciri and Yennefer and 1 spoiler where Geralt "argues" with Philippa Eilhart


Yennefer passages from the second chapter of Time of Contempt: http://imgur.com/a/cXDQZ
Includes 2 spoilers where Yennefer and Ciri arrive to the city of Gors Velen and Yen teaches Ciri some manners,
2 spoilers where Yennefer and Ciri meet with Molnar Giancardi (and talk about Geralt too), 1 spoiler where Cirilla leaves for a walk around the town, 4 spoilers where Ciri and Yen meet with Margarita and Tissaia, 1 spoiler where Ciri runs away to find Geralt, 2 spoilers where Ciri, Geralt and Yennefer are finally together for the very first time and 2 spoilers where Dandelion tries to explain Ciri the relationship between Geralt and Yennefer - all trivial shit

Yennefer of Vengerberg and her relationship with Geralt
Andrzej Sapkowski ~ Time of Contempt - Chapter Three
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0LGfPlWd7bATWhDRVVHSFVicnM/view


http://misha-dragonov.deviantart.com/


http://autumnfreckle.deviantart.com/
 
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For those who wish to discuss this exact topic, talking about quite the major part of the overall plot, I say bravo to you @Kallelinski, for the absolute beautiful effort you put into your original post here. Pack full of details that those who may have been unable to engage in previous discussions may have missed, particularly those who have only recently registered on the forums. I thank you for opening up the gates again to really dig deep and get stuck in.

It's certainly damning to see such opportunities looked over while running through with the trio. There are many a instance where one feels almost sorry for the apparent mother figure, simply due to the lack of interaction she gets with Blinkster. Looking through, you could even analyze and whip up some drafts as to how simple changes and quick edits could make things flow that much more effectively through the telling of the family story.

Looking back at the interview surrounding the family unit, it's clear there was an emphasis on said portion of the story. I only wonder where things went south?
 
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Before I start with the actual thread I want to say that I wouldn't have created this thread, if my own haven't been close for now over a week.

Well, here we have what Sard would typically call a ban-magnet.
If this thread drifts into any of the following, expect bans and/or a thread lock:
- Any more spamming of images and quotes. The examples given are MORE than enough to illustrate the topic, and there's an existing thread for screenshots and fanart, so please use that.
- Off-topic discussions. The topic is clearly stated in the header.
- Any criticism of real people. The kind made of blood and bones rather than pixels.

Oh, and as this is a suggestion, I'll be moving the thread into the appropriate forum.
 
In case Red for some reason understands Ciri now distrusts Yen, there could be hinted in game.

As I posted long ago, it seems she is cold from start, in a situation where isn't explained how she is aware of Yennefer is hanging with Nilfgaard while Geralt himself didn't even know where Yen is.

In case of this is the reason, which I would rather not believe, judging that Ciri would probably think Yen was working to help her.
 
Thank you so much for creating this thread! My feelings about their relations are exactly the same but sadly I have no idea how to get proper CDPR attention. As a huge fan of Andrzej Sapkowski I'm standing 101% behind Yen, but there are still much more Triss fans on this forum and it might be hard to somehow outshout them.
 
As a huge fan of Andrzej Sapkowski

Well now that the thread was moved to suggestions, I just can't help myself and have to rant a bit.

This is what bothers me. I mean CDPR managed to catch so many details with glorious precision, even very subtle ones, which goes to show you that they are capable of writing and creating a "reasonable canon", as long as they are willing to. Now why they decided to finally include two of the most important characters in the pentalogy, but yet somehow ignored most of the important aspects of their relationship, is just beyond my understanding and personally, I find it disrespectful towards Andrzej Sapkowski. If you import his characters you might as well respect some boundaries, or explain why not.

And how does Ciri react to being reunited with a woman who she was willing to die for (and vice versa) after four years? Silence. Not even 'Lady Yennefer', Melitele forbid 'mother'. From how she acts later it is clear that her reaction was not about her being unable to react or express herself because of being overwhelmed by feelings (being happy to see her). She remains rather distanced, no caring words between them. I would be okay with it (let's be honest though, I wouldn't)
if I was at least given a valid explanation, or frankly, any explanation at all. But what do we get? That's right. Ciri doesn't explain herself which leads me to believe that their relationship will, at some point, be like in the books... I was let down.

The worst thing is that the game is simply perfect at times and almost perfect most of the time. But then there are some moments that make you wonder what the hell is happening to this masterpiece and why. For what reason? It wouldn't be killing the diversity or freedom of choice at all in my honest opinion, it would be nothing but facts that we are used to from the books. If you refuse to work with that, then please give us a reason and not just confusing remarks. Is it so difficult?

My only explanation would be Ciri suffering some kind of brain damage, cause of excessive teleportation. I wasn't given any reasoning from CDPR why would her attitude towards Yennefer change so much. This reminds me of the good old "she is not the girl she used to be anymore" or "four years can change people" or "she is a grown/mature woman now".
I don't find this sort of explanation (which was actually subtly presented to us by CDPR) very reasonable, given the fact that in the books, the longer she was separated from Yennefer and Geralt, the more she loved them, not to mention she was completely shattered when she thought she would never see them again (Lady of the Lake, ending of Chapter Nine).

I understand that our "suggestions" might seem "repetitive" or "constant complaining" or even "broken record" to some.
But I ask you to be honest - can you blame me (us)? I was (we were) waiting for a long time... The game is outstanding, surely at the top ranks in everyone's list. When something so obvious gets mostly ignored, people tend to get annoyed.

‘I had a reason to scream. So I screamed. That should not be suppressed, it is unhealthy and unnatural.’

I believe criticism is essential for further improvement. We can surely agree that some content in TW3 needs attention.

But where is the attention? Where is the communication CDPR was once so famous for? Va'esse deireadh aep eigean...
 
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The developers said before release date that they would like to avoid making Enhanced Edition of the game. Well, everyone would want from TW3 to be as perfect as possible from the beggining but let's be honest - it's a great game, but there are some elemental plot issues that has to be fixed. I really believe in CD Projekt RED and hope they've already realized that. The Witcher 2 also had it's own problems and I can't see any of them right now. Time will tell, but c'mon we don't want that much - just a few cutscenes to be added or changed!
 
Thank you so much for creating this thread! My feelings about their relations are exactly the same but sadly I have no idea how to get proper CDPR attention. As a huge fan of Andrzej Sapkowski I'm standing 101% behind Yen, but there are still much more Triss fans on this forum and it might be hard to somehow outshout them.
Moderator: Use of this thread to disparage "Triss fans" stops here and now.
 
Well, I think one of the basic "issues" is (not only with this topic but it's one of the most striking ones) that the books are full of symbols. Symbols that are sometimes hard to even notice if you don't look for them and if you don't know them. Actually, there is a whole layer of understanding below the rather "profane" story in the Witcher novels (especially the pentalogy), a layer that follows the classical hero's journey and the internal progression and motives of the main characters. Most of these symbols reflect the various stages of the human life and the most striking topics of human beings at different moments in lifes and in different situations.

For Ciri, it's an almost classical youthhood tale, about getting mature, but also about learning something about her own sexuality. Sexuality is a central topic to Ciri, as it is to both Yen and Geralt in the game. And not because Sapkowski is a perv but because sexuality is the defining topic of human life that connects all stages of the circle of life, the topic almost everything we fight, suffer and care for is in one way or another connected. For Yen, being mother or the capability of giving life is a central topic that pretty much defines her character in the books. Without that topic Yen's character makes little to no sense. Without that topic her relationship to Geralt (from beginning to end in all books) makes no sense at all the way it is shown and and the way it progresses. Beyond all that there is the even deeper symbolism of life itself and the question between death and rebirth which consitutes pretty much the whole narrative idea of the books in the first place. The pentalogy starts and ends with Ciri because she's the symbol of life and fertility. But she can only be by the help of both Yennefer and Geralt. Without them she would still be the symbol of death like she was until The Lady of the Lake.

One of the biggest problems of the game I personally have is that CDPR either neglected these symbolism and deeper narrative structures - or they decided that it shouldn't be a topic for the game. Either way the game doesn't get the meaning of the Witcher world and the depth of its characters and their relationships if you ask me. If you think about it: there is no reason for Yen to be part of this tale in TW3. She has no emotional or "internal" meaning for the story. She's just staffage on that layer, in a truly video gamey way. Nothing what she does challenges either Geralt's or Ciri's actions (the both assumed heroes of TW3). She doesn't help them to overcome internal conflict. She surely drives the plot but she doesn't enhance it. And one of the big reasons why it doesn't work with Ciri is that CDPR failed to get their relationship right. Without the motherhood motives Yen is ripped of her basic motivation and she's also ripped of her symoblism of a "middle life female character" if you want so. I mean, tell me, what drives her in the game related to Ciri? Why does she want to find her if there is no love or warmth between them, if she doesn't want to support Ciri as a mother figure? And if that's the case why isn't it properly shown in the game? It seems like Ciri has an almost complete daddy fixation in the game while that was never the case before. And it makes no sense either, at least in no way the game explains or implies. The really poor thing is that this whole issue doesn't only value Yen down but also on of the big "female" leitmotives of the books and one of the big (probably the biggest) female leitmotif in the classical mythological tale.

I have written extensive posts about female topics and how Sapkowski handled them and how CDPR handled them so I don't want to repeat myself (I don't have the link atm but I'm sure somebody else here has...). What I want to say is not that I want more screen time for Yen or whatever but that I think that the missing explanation of the relationship between Ciri and Yen is one of the deepest narrative flaws and missed potentials in the game because that rippes both of crucial leitmotives that played an important role for them in the books, but not just out of pure coincidence but because of a damn good reason. All these characters "worked" on several layers and so did the plot. There was always more to it than just a nice story about an old witcher, his bitchy girlfriend and their annoying brat of step-daugther. Like all the mythological tales that follow the basic principles of the heroe's journey it tells us something about ourself and about life itself. The game tells me nothing. Nothing than simple and unbelievable relationships that don't have any deeper meaning than what's literally written in the corresponding dialogues. All these relationships are just there to drive and support an existing plot and that's it. Everything that goes beyond that plot - like the Yen-Ciri relationship - is just cut as it seems. And that's a shame because it doesn't give the books the respect they imo deserve.


Enough written, I'm on holidays.
 
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Guest 3847602

Guest
For Yen, being mother or the capability of giving life is a central topic that pretty much defines her character in the books. Without that topic Yen's character makes little to no sense. Without that topic her relationship to Geralt (from beginning to end in all books) makes no sense at all the way it is and progresses.

So, so much this... For god's sake we learn about her desire to cure her infertility in one of Voice of Reason stories before she is even formally introduced in The Last Wish short story. First thing we learn about her character is almost completely missing in the game. I understand that they wanted to shift all focus on Geralt (player) - Ciri relationship, but that was really, really bad decision imo
 
Sometimes I think that we're ungrateful people, judging the plot for shortcomings.
Sometimes I face it, say to myself: "this game is great anyways with or without ideal lore"

But then I go back to primary source and just...:(

It's hard to make an open-world RPG with so solid background which just break all the freedom of choice notion but on the other hand TW3 stucked in that background deep enough and it's really impossible to ignore the mesaage of this thread. CDPR tried their best painting this world but it was their choice to follow the original book line and all those shortcomings feel like real holes in the plot. Ciri+Yennefer is the one of the hugest ones.

If you want to show an importance of two "new" persons to protagonist - you should present it from the all sides. When you miss something important- many people will feel it as a defect, an imperfection.

Noel Gallagher wrote the line "true perfection has to imperfect".
I even can agree with him but here we already had a “perfection” so it really feels like a stump of that.
_____________________________________________

It’s possible to make a warm mother-daughter relationship between Y and C without breaking Geralt’s choice by playing as Cirilla. That’s how the solution looks for me. While Geralt’s doing his business, Ciri can spend her time in Novigrad with woman she called “mother” years ago. Can’t say it will burst Geralt’s #1 importance. One way or another Zirael is a protagonist too.
 

Guest 3848806

Guest
Its a shame that such important character traits were (almost) completely ignored in the game.These inconsistencies make both Ciri and Yen seem incomplete,not just the family.And in ciris case not only that but also completely irrational and OOC.One of the central points of the books were the relationships between all three.The game makes it feel like(not always) that there is a core relationship between Geralt and Ciri and poor Yen is just one of the others......
 
Regarding Yen, I think CDPR made a mistake - or a "creative decision", depending on how you see it.

That decision seems to suggest Ciri, more of a plot device and less of a character, can only sustain no more than three relationships - with Geralt, who would provide parental, spiritual guidance; with Avallac'h, who would provide technical assistance; and with Vesemir, who...well, apart from tutorship, who would die in order to provoke an emotional response from the child. Ideally Yen could be simultaneously all of them, but instead she has none of it. More often than not she has about as much significance as Triss - an important character in a certain quest line and a potential love interest for the player character. In that case, maybe only slightly more important than Keira Metz.

It's hard to not bring Triss into the fold, as the mods have become quite painfully aware of such fact. I'm not going to do exactly that - but I'd like to see Triss as embodying the interest of those who played the previous games. TW3 in this aspect is a hard game to make, as it has to balance all sorts of interests. It's a sequel so old faces have to come back. It provides the closure of the whole Geralt saga (and apparently we need happy endings and defeat the White Frost). With the amnesic phase out of the way the books also significantly increase in relevance. In balancing them CDPR chooses impartiality - and that word, unfortunately, does not necessarily translate to fairness.

So what we have here is essentially Yen as a secondary character. I'm sure if it's logistically possible CDPR would have presented the whole backstory and we'd get a far more nuanced character, but it's not - and they decided that'd be all the attention she deserves.
 
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