The Wave of CDPR-oriented Criticism - Make Love, Not War

[yoobzon]

The Wave of CDPR-oriented Criticism - Make Love, Not War

Hello guys,

I've been following this forum since a bit before the release of TW3. Initially I felt that the level of discussion is extremely high by the standards of the Interwebz With time, I started noticing a worrisome trends. Most of the major threads are slowly becoming confrontations between Team "Best Game Ever" and Team "WTH IS CDPR Doing". Let me just start with saying that I'm on the "Best Game Ever" bandwagon, albeit with some asterisks

Frankly, this kinda heated and adversarial discussion is characteristic of the Internet at large. The reason I find it particularly troubling here is because CDPR has . always paid close attention to what the community is saying. By turning the threads into yell; fests between the two factions, we risk losing the communication channel between the dev and us. If the forum is infested with angry threads, the devs will eventually stop reading it altogether. And let me make this clear, Teams BGE and WTHCD are equally at fault here.Ultimately, whatever your opinion is, you cannot seriously think that belittling the other guy will convince him.

CDPR is far from a perfect dev and there are areas where criticism is fully justified. I get that some people might feel disappointed or even betrayed. Fans love to glorify their product, art, people etc. When the reality doesn't quite meet the glorified image, a lot of people can get seriously frustrated. At the end of the day, we all need a bit of perspective? Is CDPR really deservant of hostility? When we compare them to the shitshow that's going on with other major dees, can we really state that they are the worst? In my opinion the answer is a resounding NO. Despite all the mistakes, they are still one of the most customer-friendly devs in the world,

I'm not defending any of the main lines of criticism, 90% of them are actually justified. I myself keep advocating for a proper rebalance akin to what has been done in the mods. Whatever my frustration level is, I always try to articulate my stances with dignity and respect for others. Why? Because it;s so damn easy to forget that the people on the other side are real human beings with lives and feelings. Bashing people just to make yourself feel better alienates them. And alienating CDPR staff members, whatever you think of their work, would actually be a darn shame. The fact that people like Marcin Momot actually interact with us is a very cool, unique dynamic. TAhey don't have to be doing that, yet they do. I think a bit of appreciation is in order

Lastly, I just wanted to express one thing I learned while being trained for a managerial positions some time back. Whenever you give a critique of something without offering a reasonable solution, your critical is actually detrimental to the project. I would like to urge more people to actually explain how CDPR can do a particular thing better. For example, stating that CDPR has sold out and betrayed your trust will only:

1. Make you feel a bit better for a second while CDPR is still doing the thing that really upset you
2. Anger the people around you and start a pointless exchange between the factions
3. Further alienate CDPR employees who are regular people with feelings and sure as hell don\t want to read "You suck" posts

My ultimate point is this: we can clearly affect positive change to the game if we rally together and start highlighting solutions to the problems, as opposed to just pointing out the flaws. Look at the Triss Parity campaign. Those guys stated the problem clearly and presented reasonable solutions. CDPR seems to listen to this.

One more tip, before you post anything, imagine that you have to sign every post with your real identity and ful contact details. If you feel that you as a real person can stand behind what you posted, go ahead. Otherwise, I really urge you to take a step back,

Thank you for reading

Bartek Harbut

 

[BlacJAC]

Go to any dev website and you'll quickly realise there are people who will never be happy regardless of what they're given. This forum is no different.

Some people won't ever like TW3 because it's not TW2 and some people will never like TW3 or TW2 because it's not TW1. It's how gamers work. Hate on the current offering and think their concerns are the most important concerns being aired. When in reality most of the grievances on here are trivial. They'll pick and find faults regardless of how deep they have to delve as to find those faults.

 

[VikingDream]

I have every right to be critical when the game is full of bugs and I haven;t been able to play since the 28th of May I contacted support and they said we are aware of this problem and are looking into it... it's now the 6th of July and there has been very slow progress with each new patch more things seem to get broken.

When the game is working it's a good game but lets look at the bugs that really mess this game up.

Bug's i've found so far and fixed in 1.04


Stuck with only Iggni after first time traveling to Skellige I can't change signs at all not via mouse wheel or via quick menu TAB key totally broken.

Many Graphics glitches:

Monsters that Hang in the air after death yay Killed them with igni and the drowns just stay standing up lol
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=450178066
Phantom hair
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=450302965
Floating heads
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=450302837
Faceless man
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=450302780


Bugs I can't fix.

FPS hit from 40-55 FPS(1.03) down to 25-35 FPS(1.04) with the same settings, Character pop is crazy now I can stand on a spot they are meant to be and wait 30 seconds for them so show up some times and I can hear them talking ect.


There are all new since 1.04 and the 2 new DLCs ...Now i've lost my game with 100+ hours play time due to fast travel bug.


Broken Hidden treasure quests still not fixed, Out of the frying Pan, finished the quest but quest not vanishing.


Prisoner North of hanged mans tree Bandits not spawning at all and now prisoner has vanished but the cage is still locked.(merchant in distress)

Worst for last can't fast travel to Velen or Novigrad from Skellige, White orchard or Vizema... on my game save with 100+ hours at level 20 fully explored the whole of Velen and Novigrad and now can't play at all on that save. I know a lot more people have this bug now as of 1.05 and 1.06.

1.05 didn't fix these bugs and introduced bugs with Runes mutagens and potion recipes that vanish 1.06 didn't fix these, I'm not saving it's the worst game ever it's just the same as any other CDPR launch full of bugs and needs fixing to work like Wither 1 & 2 did. On that note it's not the best game ever either but due to the size and scope of the game it's going to have problems any game this size has them look at Skyrim which needs unoffical patches to be stable.

 

[yoobzon]

Go to any dev website and you'll quickly realise there are people who will never be happy regardless of what they're given. This forum is no different.

Some people won't ever like TW3 because it's not TW2 and some people will never like TW3 or TW2 because it's not TW1. It's how gamers work. Hate on the current offering and think their concerns are the most important concerns being aired. When in reality most of the grievances on here are trivial. They'll pick and find faults regardless of how deep they have to delve as to find those faults.

I completely get that, that's how the internet and the veil of anonymity work. My main point is that the interaction dynamic is something really unique that should be cherished. Most devs Simply ignore community forums because they know they are basically hate-fests. CDPR does not do that. I would simply make sure that the dynamic is preserved.

If my post convinces one person to articulate their grievances is a better manner, it's a victory for me. I know that I wont "fix" the internet

 

[LiarOnElmstreet]

While I appreciate your constructive approach to that, I think you're missing some major points as to why it is that way. I was irritated by that internet-phenomenon in in the past as well, but the more I participated in it, the more I learned how to take it.

Firstofall not everyone measures the importance of things your way. While you look a specific part of the game and maybe even can admit that there is a flaw but don't think of it as that important, another person can be heavily upset by it. And that's perfectly okay.
The overall picture of how many people are being upset and it what manner can give the devs and the community an overview as to how the audience is structured in it's views. Not every outraged Post has to directly mean that they hate the game as a whole, just that this particular point is so very important to them.
Take the Downgrad Discussion for example. I do even see the point why one could feel betrayed. But graphics are not that important to me, so I think: "What the Heck? As long as it's a good game." But for others the graphics and the fps are the most important thing in a game. They feel CDPR tried to catch them with heavily edited PR-Showpieces and didn't deliver what they promised. That's a perfectly reasonable way of seeing things and people who just look for the best graphics are righteously outraged.
I for one am very mad about the fact that they made some characters into those Hollywood Antagonists without any depth and just gave me 5 Choices out of two predecessors in that game that have a kind of non-consequence. But if I would just meekly say that in some docile manner, CDPR would never see what kind of importance this matter has to me. But this way I point it out with every emotional aspect and others are happily invited to differ. Only this way a reader as the devs get a feeling to how players are really taking their product. What they do with this information ist solely up to them.

And regarding the way some people are saying it: All people are differently reflected, mature, educated and have other mother tongues than english. That makes it very dificult to ask for a specific way to put things. The best is to have forum rules and Mods who watch after them.

And regarding the point to appreciate CDPR works: Everyone is doing so. But I think it's worse to make excuses for CDPR and being too docile, than being too much over the top when stating things I have a problem with.

So my point being: It's okay as it is.

TLDR: Forums are for different opinions and being emotional about things is good.

 

[227]

I've never understood the phrase "make love, not war." Haven't you people ever heard of Helen of Troy? That didn't exactly work out peacefully.

And civility is overrated. I prefer a forum where only the strongest survive the bloodbath, eventually emerging as champions of rhetoric-based combat. How else are we to cull the weak?

 

[Scholdarr.452]

When in reality most of the grievances on here are trivial. They'll pick and find faults regardless of how deep they have to delve as to find those faults.

You know how the concept of different opinions works? Being dismissive of other person's opinions or feelings won't make you own position any stronger...

 

[M4xw0lf]

I've never understood the phrase "make love, not war." Haven't you people ever heard of Helen of Troy? That didn't exactly work out peacefully.

Yeah well, that was more like "Make war to make love, then make more war." :listen:

 

[yoobzon]

While I appreciate your constructive approach to that, I think you're missing some major points as to why it is that way. I was irritated by that internet-phenomenon in in the past as well, but the more I participated in it, the more I learned how to take it.
.

The way you started this post is exactly what I'm asking for. Simple acknowledgment that your interlocutor isn't an idiot goes a long way. The way you phrased your first paragraph made me want to read the rest with care and respect. The points you then made seemed far more appealing.

Imagine you started the post: "I hate those CDPR fanboys who just don't seem to get that the narrative has been simplified to the point of American action movie stupidity. Stop defending CDPR, they keep screwing us over!"

It's a similar point and it seems to be worded in a strong manner, right? However, the dismissive tone of it is discouraging to the reader. I think I understand what youre getting at. Stronger opinions should indicate to the dev that a matter is pressing. At the same time, can you honestly expect a dev to really appreciate your points if youre being dismissive about their work from the get-go? sure, you can say that it's their duty. But they are also human. If a thread is a nasty pile-on, the constructive parts of it are easily omitted. People stop caring immidiately if they perceive something as an attack on them or the things they like. This also goes for the devs. No matter how thick-skinned they are they will not appreciate your points if youre antagonizing them

At the same time, thanks for your post. To me a post like this should be a template on ho we express our grievances here yelling is a good way to get attention but it's a chaotic type of attention where the fine details of your statements get lost between the anger.

 

[BlacJAC]

You know how the concept of different opinions works? Being dismissive of other person's opinions or feelings won't make you own position any stronger...

Yes, because lets all judge RED in the same manner as much larger dev houses such as Bethesda, BioWare etc. Lets all expect them to release fixes quicker than those aforementioned devs, on half the work force and a lot smaller budget. Of course there's gonna be problems, of course there are issues, however, the internet being the internet, all sense of perspective is lost when it comes to having a good old moan. No one is saying there aren't some with genuine grievances, which i more or less alluded to when I stated "most" rather than stated "all".

Some people come on here like it's the end of the world - take the Ciri alt look for example, how dare they only release one dlc a-week. To some, it's the worst thing they've endured for years if their comments are to be believed. The same holds true with minor bugs. People making out certain insignificant bugs are on par with quest breakers or even game breakers.

 

[neru.103]

So many adults are conditioned to instant gratification. It comes with the territory of consumerism to the max idiology of the west.
Being critical is demanding instant gratification these days. The devs here will shy away of direct comunications with the fans the more there product will sell worldwide. Sad you say = yes, inevitable also yes.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Yes, because lets all judge RED in the same manner as much larger dev houses such as Bethesda, BioWare etc. Lets all expect them to release fixes quicker than those aforementioned devs, on half the work force and a lot smaller budget. Of course there's gonna be problems, of course there are issues, however, the internet being the internet, all sense of perspective is lost when it comes to having a good old moan. No one is saying there aren't some with genuine grievances, which i more or less alluded to when I stated "most" rather than stated "all".

Some people come on here like it's the end of the world - take the Ciri alt look for example, how dare they only release one dlc a-week. To some, it's the worst thing they've endured for years if their comments are to be believed. The same holds true with minor bugs. People making out certain insignificant bugs are on par with quest breakers or even game breakers.

I think we can have a good discussion about how much criticism we all seem reasonable but only if we concentrate on the topic itself and not on each other.

Edit: You're right. It's not my job to preach anything to you. My first post was meant as a positive suggestion in order to keep the discussion civilized but I see you interpreted it in a negative way, so I'm sorry. I let the mods deal with the issue instead.

 

[Mogsters73]

You cant please them all, CDPR have sold millions I dont think they lose any sleep over a handful of people qqing about nitpicking.

You probably find most of the same people in every major AAA forums qqing about something.

The few bugs I counted is nothing compared to other games, Like Skyrim I was literally spamming f12 all day cuz you could hard crash anywhere at any time.

 

[yoobzon]

So many adults are conditioned to instant gratification. It comes with the territory of consumerism to the max idiology of the west.
Being critical is demanding instant gratification these days. The devs here will shy away of direct comunications with the fans the more there product will sell worldwide. Sad you say = yes, inevitable also yes.

It's easy to just be cynical about people. Although I agree with you that it's an integral part of the gaming community, I just don't think that it has to be like that forever. I think the internet is still a relatively new tech and were all still learning how to project ourselves online.

I do believe that if we start calling out this negativity and dismissivness, it will eventually get better. Internet users are a bit like the Americans in that Winston Churchill quote " The Americans always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all other possibilities"

We seem to have no problem with accepting that instant gratification is an often an impossibility offline. You don't go to your employer demanding a bonus after your fist successful project,. The internet is still a very abstract entity to many of us. That's why we apply different rules to it. I really think that will change with time. the Internet is just an extension of our lives, not a new life with new rules etc.

 

[MrPerfectionist]

These wave of criticisms actually show CDPR that we love and care for this game, it's not just a game it's a legacy, The Witcher 3 has certain faults that must be pointed out which by the way are very fixable and would bring the game ever closer to perfection. If CDPR just made an bad game then people would not be debating and arguing the specifics but rather say its not a very good game as just a passing comment without much need to elaborate it.

 

[CostinRaz]

People have every right to be critical of any company, especially when they say certain things and don't deliver, and just because criticism is not delivered in a polite way does not mean it is not valid, it is just as valid.

That others devs do a lot of shit does not invalidate criticism of CDPR, since I would hold CDPR to a higher standard then say EA or Sega or Activision.

Attempting to silence criticism does not help ANYONE, all it does is create flame wars.

 

[yoobzon]

People have every right to be critical of any company, especially when they say certain things and don't deliver, and just because criticism is not delivered in a polite way does not mean it is not valid, it is just as valid.

That others devs do a lot of shit does not invalidate criticism of CDPR, since I would hold CDPR to a higher standard then say EA or Sega or Activision.

Attempting to silence criticism does not help ANYONE, all it does is create flame wars.

2 points:

1. I was simply trying to point out that our criticism can be more productive if you focus more on the solutions, instead of just criticizing for the sake of criticizing. Like I said, The Triss Parity campaign only shows us that being constructive can actually lead to reactions from CDPR, which is quite awesome. I don't have anything against criticism, you can find many posts where I explain why I think the difficulties need a complete rebalance.

2. Holding CDPR to high standards is understandable. At the same time we kinda have to acknowledge what's going on in the industry at large. In my opinion, CDPR deserved a bit of credit for all the bad things they could have done but didn't. Some examples:

A. Alternative Outfits could have easily been paid DLC and noone wouldve been surprised. EA does that every day
B. Such a big game could have easily been divided into three 30-40 USD episodes. Telltale releases 3 hour long games and noone seems to mind. Three 40 hour long games would have still been a good deal by todays standards
C. They could have dismisses the downgrade criticism altogether (because it was ridiculous compared to the Watch Dogs or Bioshock Infinite downgrades). Instead, they have acknowledged it and apologized for the misunderstanding 2 days after release

Of course, you have a right to base your criticism on what you would consider an ideal company. But I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from, an ideal company does not exist and comparing CDPR to its peers is a natural thing

 

[CostinRaz]

The Triss Parity campaign only shows us that being constructive can actually lead to reactions from CDPR, which is quite awesome.

The Triss Parity campaign shows us that loud voices lead to change, not merely constructive criticism. There were plenty of angry posts against CDPR.

A. Alternative Outfits could have easily been paid DLC and noone wouldve been surprised. EA does that every day

Used to, not anymore. Because people shouted at them for it. Also for CDPR it's one their main PR campaigns that they will make free DLC, no DRM games, for them to throw that away would hurt them quite a bit. It's good business.

B. Such a big game could have easily been divided into three 30-40 USD episodes. Telltale releases 3 hour long games and noone seems to mind. Three 40 hour long games would have still been a good deal by todays standards

Telltale also focuses a lot on quality. Look at the amount effort poured into each scene, the cinematic direction, the dialogue, the design. Telltale has an approach of quality over quantity.

Besides the entire Game of Thrones game, with all it's 6 episodes and about a dozen or hours of content is worth 28 euros, a reasonable price considering the high production values.

C. They could have dismisses the downgrade criticism altogether (because it was ridiculous compared to the Watch Dogs or Bioshock Infinite downgrades). Instead, they have acknowledged it and apologized for the misunderstanding 2 days after release

You bring up the downgrade point as a positive? Really? "Sigh" I really don't want to get into this, not now but since you brought it up.

They DID dismiss the entire downgrade criticism for well over a year, only admiting it after the game came out. But I will not forget how in every damned interview they denied the downgrade situation existed, or how when the Elder Blood trailer came out the community managers: Both Marcin Momont and Chris Priestly, tried to spew BS that the Elder Blood trailer issues came about as a result of YT compression.

That they admitted the downgrade in the Eurogamer interview does not excuse how they handled it before launch, especially after they banned every discussion and anyone bringing up the discussion for over a week before the game launched and in that Eurogamer interview Marcin Iwnski practically told anyone that didn't buy the game to STFU about downgrade.

 

[BlacJAC]

It's not up to you to judge on other people on this forum. You're free to have your own opinion on topics but you're not allowed to state your opinion on other users. That's dismissive and only leads to flamebaiting. I think we can have a good discussion about how much criticism we all seem reasonable but only if we concentrate on the topic itself and not on each other.

Nor is it up to you to tell me or others what they should or shouldn't be posting and to tell others what they're free to discuss or what they aren't. Maybe I've missed something here, but you're not a mod or any sort of admin. Not exactly being abusive to anyone, merely passing my opinion, so whilst I appreciate your concern and you stating your opinions onto myself, I think I'll leave you to preach to others on what they should or shouldn't be posting.

 

[dragonbird]

So....

However initially well-intentioned, this type of thread is pretty much guaranteed to turn flaming hot very quickly, because all posts are effectively about other forum members, or at least interpreted as such.

Which means it's probably best NOT continued any further.