The White Frost

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The whole White Frost and 2nd Conjunction business really threw me for a loop: completely out of left field, almost completely unexplained. Admittedly, I've only read the books published in English but the way it looked to me was thusly: The White Frost visible in the game existed outside of the World of the Witcher, either by spacial or time fabric. When the correct rift was opened, the Frost could enter the World, (possibly at the source of the magic used by the Hunt). At the end of the game, another Conjunction of Spheres threatened to pull in the Frost from another part of reality, so Ciri was forced to seal the Conjunction's rifts or the one connecting to the source of the Frost.

That's what it looked like to me, anyway. Admittedly, when we're talking about Quantum Physics and the numerous theories revolving around multiple dimensions and realities, (not to be confused with one another), you have nearly limitless explanations. Still, CDPR did a piss-poor job of explaining the situation. I mean, did the conjunction continue? Was it postponed? Etc. Etc. Etc.
 
That's what it looked like to me, anyway. Admittedly, when we're talking about Quantum Physics and the numerous theories revolving around multiple dimensions and realities, (not to be confused with one another), you have nearly limitless explanations. Still, CDPR did a piss-poor job of explaining the situation. I mean, did the conjunction continue? Was it postponed? Etc. Etc. Etc.
I'd say Avallac'h opened the Conjunction to connect the witcher worl with the world where the White Frost originated, so that Ciri can enter that world to stop the WHite Frost, and afterwards he closes the rift.
But you are right of course, CDRP did a shitty job here. Feels completely out of line.
 
Maybe if in truth Ciri failed in the bad ending and chickened out(that is she decided to enjoy life without the hunt first) in the other two, we would have Witcher 4: The Post-Apocalypse. It would be like Fallout in the Witcher world. :huh:
 
My only problem with it being a natural force like an ice age, is that if it is some kind of force like climate change, why does it happen with every world everyone goes to, and also never end (as far as I am aware)? Could it possibly be some sort of "aftereffect" of using the "natural force" of magic itself? Or like game of thrones, is caused by some otherworldly being like the white walkers, just no one knows about them? Obviously no one in the witcher world itself knows at this point, at least that has been revealed. As the game itself takes place after the books, and CDPR continues to bring this up in the game as a major event, i'd imagine at some point this will be explained further, maybe in the expansion DLC that is coming. I've always been facinated about the white frost, since Alvin (and the man beasts lol), and I wasn't expecting them to bring it back up again in this game, at least as the "ultimate evil to destroy". All in all, a very interesting topic
That's another invention of CDPR. In the books the White Frost was a phenomenon of the Witcher world alone and not a problem of every possible world.

And Nimue has a pretty good explanation for the White Frost on earth: physics and science. She explains it with the elliptical path of the earth around the sun and the tilted axis of the earth. Both phenomenon can change in gradation over time, in cyclical pattern. A maximal stretched ellipsis and a minimal deviation of earth axis from the perpendicular causes extreme weather conditions. At the apoapsis the earth gets only very little light and warmth and the reduced light on the northern hemisphere causes the snow to stay longer without melting. The snow again causes the sunlight to be reflected which reduces the temperatures even further. Warm ocean currents from the south carry warm air with them whose humidity condensates in the northern regions and falls down as snow. A circulatory of more snow and less temperatures begin and after some time the snow forms glaciers and move south from the northern pole. Since 90% of the continental mass of the world is located on the northern hemisphere that's the beginning of an ice age for everyone living in the northern parts of the planet which inlcudes the known continent from teh books with all the northern kingdoms and Nilfgaard alike.


"Itlina was right. Her prophecy will occur. The world will go down beneath a thick layer of ice. The civilization will vanish due to the guilt of the annihilator who could have opened a passage for salvation, who had the chance to do so. But as we know from the legend she didn't do it."
"Because of reasons the legend doesn't explain. Or because of reasons it only explains by nebulous and naive moral reflections."
"That's true. But the truth remains. The truth is the White Frost. The civilization of the northern hemisphere is doomed. It will vanish beneath the ice of the rising glaciers, beneath everlasting frost and snow. But there is no reason to panic because it will take quite a whie until it will happen."
[...]
"How long?" Condawiamurs asked. "How long will it take, according to your opinion? I mean, how much time do we have left?"
"Much."
"How much, Nimue?"
"About 3000 years."
On the lake, in the boat, the fisher king creakily moved the oars and began to swear. Condawiamurs sighed loudly.
"You comforted me a bit," she said after a while.
"But only a bit."

from Andrzej Sapkowski, The Lady of the Lake


I'd say Avallac'h opened the Conjunction to connect the witcher worl with the world where the White Frost originated, so that Ciri can enter that world to stop the WHite Frost, and afterwards he closes the rift.
But you are right of course, CDRP did a shitty job here. Feels completely out of line.
Totally impossible. If Avallac'h could do so why does he need Ciri? Everyone wants to capture her because she (or better: her descendants) is the ONLY one who is able to open a steady gate between the worlds (which is by the way, not the same thing as the conjunction). But that's actually the problem. The end dissents the whole purpose and meaning of the events in both the books AND the games. It renders them completely pointless.
 
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Totally impossible. If Avallac'h could do so why does he need Ciri? Everyone wants to capture her because she (or better: her descendants) is the ONLY one who is able to open a steady gate between the worlds (which is by the way, not the same thing as the conjunction). But that's actually the problem. The end dissents the whole purpose and meaning of the events in both the books AND the games. It renders them completely pointless.
well he needs Ciri to stop the white frost, is that impossible based on the books? of course, but I thinkt CDPR didn't care to much about possibilityand more about ending all story threads - how nonsense it may be.
 
well he needs Ciri to stop the white frost, is that impossible based on the books? of course, but I thinkt CDPR didn't care to much about possibilityand more about ending all story threads - how nonsense it may be.
The White Frost was NEVER a story thread in the book - so why the utter need to "end it" in such a stupid way? Sorry, I still don't get the reasoning...
 
The White Frost was NEVER a story thread in the book - so why the utter need to "end it" in such a stupid way? Sorry, I still don't get the reasoning...
they made it a story thread in the games.
I'm not saying it makes sense or is made well, but for whatever reason they made it that way.
 
In a books she was not supposed to "end" the White Frost, she was supposed to bring to the world a child, who was supposed to lead all living beings through the portal to the other world, where everyone will be safe from this natural disaster. So all this mess about big bad white frost in TW3 seemed awfully strange to me.
 
they made it a story thread in the games.
I'm not saying it makes sense or is made well, but for whatever reason they made it that way.

Actually not. Even in the games the White Frost was more or less always a far away and more philosophical issue - at least until the very last minutes of TW3.

In Witcher 1 it was just a vision at the very end, not a concrete issue. In Witcher 2 it wasn't present at all. In Witcher 3 it wasn't an issue until the very end of the game. Nowhere in the three games that White Frost was presented or introduced as an "entitiy" or "being" that could be destroyed or ended, just like that - until the very last minutes of TW3.
 
Actually not. Even in the games the White Frost was more or less always a far away and more philosophical issue - at least until the very last minutes of TW3.

In Witcher 1 it was just a vision at the very end, not a concrete issue. In Witcher 2 it wasn't present at all. In Witcher 3 it wasn't an issue until the very end of the game. Nowhere in the three games that White Frost was presented or introduced as an "entitiy" or "being" that could be destroyed or ended, just like that - until the very last minutes of TW3.

...
Actually...Jacques de Aldersberg wanted to lead humanity safely through that ice age...
 
...
Actually...Jacques de Aldersberg wanted to lead humanity safely through that ice age...

I know that. But that was just the vision of a lunatic who took the prophecy all too literal and self-centered. There was no ice age incoming in Witcher 1 - only Jaques thought so. He was a madman, consumed by the idea of him being the saviour of the world.

The actual ice age of course, it's still something that will probably happen. In about 3000 years.
 
I haven't played through Ciri's "bad ending", but does she stop the White Frost in it? If she doesn't, maybe that ending is "canon"... :p

Or maybe Eredin's last words were onto something after all... Avallac'h is missing after the ending right? Maybe he had Ciri unwittingly open portals for him to conquer worlds, and tricked her into thinking she was stopping the White Frost. While Geralt, Ciri, and friends are happily enjoying their victory, Avallac'h is out conquering the multiverse...

That would have made quite a twist ending actually (if CDPR were planning a Witcher 4). While Geralt and Ciri are celebrating in a tavern, they could show Avallac'h on a distant world leading an Aen Elle army about to attack that world's natives. Ge'els would then approach Avallac'h saying, "Well played, master. Everything is going according to plan." And the ending would close on Avallac'h laughing...
 
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I haven't played through Ciri's "bad ending", but does she stop the White Frost in it? If she doesn't, maybe that ending is "canon"... :p

Or maybe Eredin's last words were onto something after all... Avallac'h is missing after the ending right? Maybe he had Ciri unwittingly open portals for him to conquer worlds, and tricked her into thinking she was stopping the White Frost. While Geralt, Ciri, and friends are happily enjoying their victory, Avallac'h is out conquering the multiverse...

That would have made quite a twist ending actually (if CDPR were planning a Witcher 4). While Geralt and Ciri are celebrating in a tavern, they could show Avallac'h on a distant world leading an Aen Elle army about to attack that world's natives. Ge'els would then approach Avallac'h saying, "Well played, master. Everything is going according to plan." And the ending would close on Avallac'h laughing...

true.......so much "witcher" outcome ...........but still......creppy :hmm2:
 
It is a shame really that the story took such a bad turn at the last minute and went full "savior of the galaxy" cliche, it is specially painfull taking into consideration all the plot wholes and inconcistencies with the books it created going this path.

I hope that if CDPR ever releases an EE eddition, it comes with some extensive story revisions. It would be a pity if the last game featuring Geralt and the one supposely bringing closure to the Books Main Story faded into history with such an sloppy ending.

Divinity Original Sin developers recently released an EE that altered the story, hell even Bioware "half-fixed" the crappy ending of Mass Effect 3. So if those guys can can, then i could not spect any less coming from CDPR.
 
It is a shame really that the story took such a bad turn at the last minute and went full "savior of the galaxy" cliche, it is specially painfull taking into consideration all the plot wholes and inconcistencies with the books it created going this path.

It was, or let the world perish, or save the world. Not really much room for creativity there I think. I read the books, but it's some time ago so I can't really recall the plotholes and inconsistencies you talk about though. It is just a natural event, an ice age or something like that, just like in the game.
 
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For a noob, this whole white frost thing can be very confusing. I started playing this game back in May. I purposely did not visit the forums or read up on the game to avoid spoilers, but after the dus ex machina ending I was like . . .wtf.....it does not make sense. Playing the game made me think from the beginning that the white frost was something that accompanied the wild hunt (cause everytime they appeared, things froze and they left ice in their wake). My idea was that the wild hunt wanted Cirri to use her power to fully invade the "continent" and great "freeze" that followed was gonna be a consiquence of that invasion, only to find that defeating the wild hunt was just a small bump in the road (and a piss poor battle btw) and Cirri runs off, Avelach opens a door in the tower, Cirri goes in. . . .and well you know the rest.

Then I started visiting the forums, reading asking some questions. . . .and got hold of the English versions of the books and read what I could. Like most I have found the white frost in the game is different as its portrayed in the books and the bad guys in the books are not after Cirri for her power, but for what's between her legs. The game also "sanitized" Cirri.

Also the game having no post dialogs from key characters possibly explaining what actually happened was a complete cop out. Still this is an absolutely epic game (baring the fact that things go tits up in act 3), but HOS was a bit of a saving grace, had a good ending and I totally understood the ending, cause it made sense. As for this whole white frost thing that was done in the game. . . .i still don't get it.
 
It was, or let the world perish, or save the world. Not really much room for creativity there I think. I read the books, but it's some time ago so I can't really recall the plotholes and inconsistencies you talk about though. It is just a natural event, an ice age or something like that, just like in the game.

1. Ciri's role and powers.
The books for once were never directly(main characters motivations) about saving the world, specially not regarding Ciri, she was not even all that powerfull in comparison with what her children was rumored to would have been. The game however completly ignored the child of Ciri subplot, and made her in stead a "super hero saves the world and ends all evil" kind of character.....

2. The nature of The White Frost itself.
In the books it was allways mentioned/hinted as a force of nature, a natural disaster of sorts, not an entity that Ciri(or anyone else) could simply "stop/defeat" once and for all. The game ending seriosly points towards it being something else than just a natural thing. How did she even dealt with it to start with?

Those 2 would be from my personal opinion the 2 biggest plot holes/inconsistencies regarding the books and the ending of Witcher 3, but i am sure there are smaller issues too if one is to be nitpicky.

PS: It is been a wile since i read the books too, so what i am saying can be quite ambiguous/"mainstream view", rather than as in-detail and illustrative as i would prefer it to be.

PS2: Here a way more in-deep answer to your question:
Official chapter 5 of my assessment of the narrative, follow up of my initial starting post:

5.) Ciri as the defeater of the White Frost?

I've added this section because I think that the inconsistencies and issues of the deus ex machina moment aren't described thoroughly enough yet, especially if we take a closer look at Ciri, who she is and what she is capable of. As written above in the very end of the game Avallac'h and Ciri open a portal between the worlds and Ciri goes through it in order to "fight the white frost".

But wait a minute? Who is Ciri exactly and what exactly empowers her to do such a thing? Well, let's start first with how Ciri and her powers are described in the book. We know that she is a descendent of Lara Dorren aep Shiadhal, an Elven Sage, an Aen Saevherne like Avallac'h, who was the bearer of the Hen Ichaer, the Elder Blood, a genetic mutation of old Elven blood, prosecuted by the Aen Elle during hundreds of years in order to re-establish powers they've long lost - the powers to open a gate between different worlds, the Ard Gaeth. Like Lara Ciri bears the Elder Blood. So is she actually able to open Ard Gaeth? Well, in the books that is actually never even a question. She only has one purpose to the ones who want to control the gate: to give birth to a child. Ciri is actually senn by nobody as the saviour of the world. Only her child is, or even her later descendents are at the earliest. Every "expert" on the topic is agreeing on that very point:

The Aen Elle and Avallac'h:

"We want to have your child, swallow, daughter of Lara Dorren."
Andrzej Sapkowski, The Lady of the Lake

The lodge of the sorceresses:

"Cirilla, Pavetta of Cintra's daughter, Calanthe the Lion's granddaughter. The Elder Blood, the ice flame of the North, the destroyer and renewer, whose advent has been predicted already hundred of years ago. Ciri of Cintra, the queen of the North. And her blood, of which the queen of the world will be born."
Andrzej Sapkowski, Baptism of Fire

Emhyr var Emreis:

"Cirilla [...] will be happy like most of the queens I've spoken of. That will happen over time. Her love that I won't demand from her, will be passed onto her son whom I will beget with her. The crown prince and upcoming emperor. The emperor who will beget a son. The son who will be the ruler of the world and who will save the world from annihilation. That's what the prophecies tell us, the prophecies whose content only I know."
Andrzej Sapkowski, The Lady of the Lake

Vilgefortz has a somewhat different "approach" to the topic but it's quite clear as well that he doesn't want or need Ciri herself neither, but only her blood (and certain parts of her body...):

"Maybe you're concerned about it, maybe you're happy about it, but you should know that you won't give birth to a child. Who knows, maybe it would be indeed a big chosen one with exceptional abilities, a saviour of the world and ruler of all people. But nobody is able to vouch for that and I don't want to wait so long anyway. I need blood. Placenta blood, to be precise. As soon as the placenta will be developed I will cut it out."
Andrzej Sapkowski, The Lady of the Lake


So it seems to be pretty clear that Ciri herself doesn't have such spectacular abilites. Nobody is really interested in her person or abilities but only literally in her crotch. Everyone wants to have sex with her in order to beget a child. That's why everyone is hunting Ciri. But Avallac'h has a lot more to say on the topic. He explains in detail what the White Frost actually is and how Ciri is supposed to deal with it:

"We have [...] more than good reason to assume that your world is in danger of annihilation. A climatic catastrophy of extreme scope. With your profound education you've surely heard of Aen Itlinn Speath, Itlina's prophecy. It relates to the White Frost. We think that it means a strong glaciation. And since 90 percent of the main land of your world are located on the northern hemisphere a glaciation can threaten the very existence of most beings. They will just die of cold. Those who will survive will descend into chaos, wiping each other out in merciless struggles for food, becoming the prey of predators mad of hunger themselves. Remember the wording of the prohecy: time of contempt, time of axe, time of wolve storms... [...]
The child we care about so much, the descendent of Lara Dorren and bearer of her gene which was specially built by us can save the inhabitants of this world. We have reason to believe that Lara's descendent - and yours, naturally - will have abilities at their command that will be more than a thousand times stronger than ours, the ones of the Sages. And which you have at your command as well, in a rudimentary form.[...] It's about the possibility to not only be able to transport yourself, you own not so important person, between the worlds. It's about the opening of Ard Gaeth, the big and steady gate that can be used by everyone. Before the conjunction we once managed to achieve that and we want to be able to do so again now. We will evacuate the Aen Seidhe from the dying world in which they live. Our brothers to whom we owe help. We couldn't live with the awareness that we missed something in order to save them. And we will save them, we will evacuate everyone who is threatened in this world. Everyone, Zirael. Even the humans."

Andrzej Sapkowski, The Lady of the Lake

So while the last passage about the saving of the humans and in particular the conditions of such an endavour are probably highly debatable there is no reason why Avallac'h should lie about the rest. That's pretty much the known prophecy of Itlina anyway, just extended by the concrete interpretation of the Aen Saevherne, probably the most prolific experts on the topic that could be found.

What does this mean for the Witcher 3 and its ending? What does this mean for Ciri and her abilities? Well, first she doesn't seem to have that awesome abilities after all. She can obviously travel between worlds. But can she open Ard Gaeth? Well, actually nobody thinks so. Everybody thinks that one of her descendants will once be able to do so. Obviously the genetic mutation in her blood isn't ready for that step. And then after all, nobody ever talk about an ability to "stop the white froze altogether". For pretty much everyone in the books, every expert on the topic, Avallac'h and the Aen Saevherne and all the powerful sorcerers and sorceresses alike, the White Frost is something that is just there, an irrevocable force of nature. The task of the Elder Blood isn't to fight and win against the Wild Frost but not enable survival for a new beginning. To open a gate. To give people a chance to flee and start somewhere else anew. Nothing of that is even remotely mentined in the ending of the Witcher 3.

Of course Witcher 3 could deviate from the book lore and establish it's own, modified version. The problem is that it never really does. It never explains Ciri's supposed powers. It never explains how she is able to fight and win against the White Frost. It never explains why Ciri should go through the portal and what she should do on the other side. It never explains why suddenly Ciri herself is important. Which ability that is displayed in the game should grant her any power to fight and end the white frost? And why does she need a portal to a different world if the White Frost threatens the world she lives in already? Why does she need a portal after all? If it's only about her why doesn't she just use her normal travelling abilities? Is the White Frost some kind of "living entity" in the Witcher 3? If yes, why isn't that explained to give the proper context? So many question, but not even one satisfying answer. I mean, I get the argument that the games don't necessarily have to stick to all the lore established in the books. But if there is no other explanation for some elements, how should we evaluate them? Either they are based on book lore or they have to be properly explained which obviously isn't the case here.

I mean, it's really a shame. The whole thing is pretty complex in the books which includes the motives of the Wild Hunt. In the books they aren't all evil super villains. They are pretty much like many humans, just from a different perspective. They think that they are naturally "better" and superior than every other race and that every other race should serve them. Of course that is fundamentally opposed to the human interest in the witcher world and so the Aen Elle are natural enemies, so to say. But they are not just "evil", not even Eredin. He's a power hungry murderer and invader but he shares these traits with human rulers of the likes of Emhyr var Emreis.

If you ask me the end just doesn't make any sense in the given context. It's not consistent with the lore and characterization of Ciri in the books. It's not consistent with the characterization of the White Frost in the book. It's not properly explained in the game itself neither. But by excluding all sexual topics from the game (except Geralt's "love interests") they also took away the basic motivation why every "villain" wanted to capture Ciri in the first place, Eredin included. There is no real motivation left for Avallac'h's actions after all, at least not a (newly) described one (Auberon is dead and he obviously doesn't want Eredin to capture Ciri for whatever reason). No matter how you look at it, the deus ex machina portal event at the very end makes no much sense and is full of narrative inconsistencies. It's just a hot mess, like I said in the title of this thread.
 
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1. Ciri's role and powers.
The books for once were never directly(main characters motivations) about saving the world, specially not regarding Ciri, she was not even all that powerfull in comparison with what her children was rumored to would have been. The game however completly ignored the child of Ciri subplot, and made her in stead a "super hero saves the world and ends all evil" kind of character.....

2. The nature of The White Frost itself.
In the books it was allways mentioned/hinted as a force of nature, a natural disaster of sorts, not an entity that Ciri(or anyone else) could simply "stop/defeat" once and for all. The game ending seriosly points towards it being something else than just a natural thing. How did she even dealt with it to start with?

Those 2 would be from my personal opinion the 2 biggest plot holes/inconsistencies regarding the books and the ending of Witcher 3, but i am sure there are smaller issues too if one is to be nitpicky.

PS: It is been a wile since i read the books too, so what i am saying can be quite ambiguous/"mainstream view", rather than as in-detail and illustrative as i would prefer it to be.

PS2: Here a way more in-deep answer to your question:

Couldn't she just have teleported the white frost away? In the games the white frost is indeed a bit different than in the books then, as in the game the white frost is something that moves around in the universe (said by Avallach iirc).
I ofcourse agree with the first point, none can deny that cdpr changed the focus of the story.
 
I hope that if CDPR ever releases an EE eddition, it comes with some extensive story revisions. It would be a pity if the last game featuring Geralt and the one supposely bringing closure to the Books Main Story faded into history with such an sloppy ending.

Extensive story revisions to a large AAA game that won an award for the best story in 2015 are realistically not likely to happen, I think even with an EE, the story, characters, and endings would stay fundamentally the same. But it could explain the ending better, and fill in more details with dialogues, text (books and journal), and improved ending boards and cutscenes.
 
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