The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[Medy89]

I dont know guys... I think this system is way better than TW2.

Absolutely!!! those guys from cdpr got experience from the last systems and they have an idea/vision how they can make the experience better for W3 ... and it will be
Im not saying that any previous alchemy was not good ...

the only think that they took away with this change is the intensive grinding for materials ... which I believe no one can say with a straight face that grinding and looking all over the map for plants is the best thing ever ... you gulp those things down and they are gone forever ... its a different story with upgrades... those stay & make your efforts worthwhile through the whole span of the game ....that in my eyes is rewarding & cool ... its like looking for treasure / seeking armor parts / blueprints ..

we still get to explore and search for certain upgrade materials.. ofc in terms of realism its abit odd... .. but the way I see it & @ONLY ONCE metioned it(&devs see it) , its probably for the better ..

 

[BER7ERK]

I dont know guys... I think this system is way better than TW2. It has nothing to do with casual gamers or COD like @idub7 wrote.

It is exaclty that. Why else would you remove these things? People want to gather the stuff. Auto refill makes gathering plants and so an unnecessary at some point.
Gathering plants is actually a really good thing to do when exploring something. I guess you could still do it then, but for what? You dont need them anymore.
In other games people go and collect alot of ingredients and store them or directly make potions out of them. Gathering ingredients actually is a basic feature for Open World RPGs. And like I already said, you may still be ablet to collect that stuff, but it is unnecessary.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

It is exaclty that. Why else would you remove these things? People want to gather the stuff. Auto refill makes gathering plants and so an unnecessary at some point.
Gathering plants is actually a really good thing to do when exploring something. I guess you could still do it then, but for what? You dont need them anymore.
In other games people go and collect alot of ingredients and store them or directly make potions out of them. Gathering ingredients actually is a basic feature for Open World RPGs. And like I already said, you may still be ablet to collect that stuff, but it is unnecessary.

Agreed.

I mean, if I do not want a potion, does it still auto-refill for me just because I made it 1 time?
Will it take away inventory space then?
How will collecting ingredients work if I upgraded all potions? Not at all, because it is not needed anymore.

I don't mind collecting a lot of ingredients the first time to brew a potion and then if I "unlocked" the potion or each time I "upgraded" it I just need way less ingredients to brew them, but I still have to brew them myslef.

It's like crafting. I mean hey, if you craft something, do you want it to get auto-crafted each time after you crafted it the first time with no material needed?
Do you want buffs to cost no mana?
No, because it's about resource management, preparation, brewing the potions you prefer and taking them.
It's about the tactical aspect, the immersion and the feeling to be a Witcher.

And with auto-refill I do not have that feeling.

EDIT: Looked at the Q&A in the Q&A Thread now (didn't watch it before) and I have to say, actually the words are pretty clear to me. (It's around the 7 min mark in the video):

He does distinctively underline the fact that you can create level 1 potions and use 1 potion multiple times.
And then he say that YOU can refill the potions WHILE meditating , which is pretty clear.

The question LEFT now is, do we need ingredients for this refilling or not? PLEASE YES, because if not then this is something I definitely want changed. And if it's just 1 herb, I just need material to create them, that is something I definitely want. Ingredient gathering needs to be part of it.

Then the question is - is this the current version, or was that the old version and they replaced it with a full auto-refill or with another system?

We DO need clarification.

 

[DukeAlmighty]

I would prefer TW1 alchemy system that you need alcohol potion base + TW2 alchemy system that you need to drink them before combat.
Auto refilling potions feels like dumbing down.

And in order to counter the problems Kondrad mentioned that most people don't use their potions, but save them for "later" I have a simple solution:
* from 1 herb you can make 5-10 potions
* increase potion duration
And in order to counter the problem that, you don't know what potions to take, because you have no idea whats coming:
* Allow few versatile potions, to be taken during combat, like Swallow, Rook, Tawny owl, so if you really get caught unprepared you have something to hold on.

 

[HellKnightX88]

Going with your system and ideas I don't think they even need to let you take certain potions in combat, they just need to do a good job in giving the player hints as to what he might face. If you have NPCs tell Geralt that area X is territory to some pretty nasty beasts and not many have returned to tell about them then I think it's pretty obvious that as a player you should prepare a bit and not go in there #YOLO. If you screw up and die then reload and better prepare yourself, it's not like the game suddenly uses artificial difficulty to one shot you, you were warned.

Ideally for me the game would use a system very much similar to what you explained but wit ha few differences:
-you'll need an appropriate alcohol/grease/base and ingredients that you need to collect/buy
-you make 1 item not entire batches from a set of ingredients
-stuff doesn't refill
-potions and oils last several in game hours (or as FCR for TW2 did it, 1 hour) and need to be balanced around this longer duration
-they can be upgraded (I really like this new feature, it keeps potions useful throughout the game)
-unique mutagens are permanent and work pretty much like TW1 granting unique bonuses (ranging from straight forward things like providing a slight boost in HP regen to more elaborate stuff like your eyes adapting better in darkness and needing to take a cat potion only in pitch black areas)
-you can't drink potions outside the meditation screen, you need to plan ahead and pay attention to the hints the game might give you in regards to what you'll face

This would be ideal for me. Most probably not ideal for other people who may see this as a bit too complicated in its creation and too restrictive in its usage.

But the way they currently have implemented the alchemy system isn't a dealbreaker for me. Some of it doesn't make sense (the refill thing) but it's something I can live with. Not having to collect ingredients as much as before (at least that what it sounds like ATM unless the refill thing turns out to me false) doesn't really affect me, I always had more than enough ingredients since I'm a loot-whore by nature.

 

[schinderhannes.999]

(A bit more of a clarification here since I talked to another dev off camera. The potions/bomb system works like this: You get the recipe and it will cost a big amount of materials to craft, and you’ll get something like 3 charges of the swallow potion for example. When you run out, you will need materials to craft the potions again, but they will require only a fraction of the materials needed compared to when you first craft the bomb/potion.)

As far as I'm concerned, THIS pretty much already struck a perfect balance for both camps.

There's the potion charges for people that don't like to gather ingredients and actively brew potions all the time and then there's the concept of 'recharging' the potions by re-brewing them, but at reduced requirements, i.e. only a fraction of the original amount of ingredients. And with the confirmation that gathering ingredients would be handled similarly to the previous installments, meaning with a relatively consistent distribution through picking herbs, looting cadavers or buying from vendors there should be hardly any shortage of ingredients at any time as well.

It's baffling why CDPR would abandon this approach in favour of going back full auto-refill again.
As far as I know, you never go full auto-refill.

 

[HellKnightX88]

As far as I'm concerned, THIS pretty much already struck a perfect balance for both camps.

There's the potion charges for people that don't like to gather ingredients and actively brew potions all the time and then there's the concept of 'recharging' the potions by re-brewing them, but at reduced requirements, i.e. only a fraction of the original amount of ingredients. And with the confirmation that gathering ingredients would be handled similarly to the previous installments, meaning with a relatively consistent distribution through picking herbs, looting cadavers or buying from vendors there should be hardly any shortage of ingredients at anytime.

It's baffling why CDPR would abandon this concept in favour of going back full auto-refill again.
As far as I know, you never go full auto-refill.

I'm inclined to believe Marcin and his colleague had outdated information about the alchemy system (bit of wishfull thinking I admit) and/or the system isn't quite finalized yet and they're still trying different things. I don't think they had regen, removed it and then added it back in. It's either they had regen and then switched it off or they had regen and never changed away from it (only discussed the idea).

 

[thislsmadness]

What I find interesting is that there doesn't appear to be a crafting UI at all, at least not within the main menu. In the videos we've seen Geralt go into the menu there are no options for crafting. There is just Inventory, Journal, Map, and Meditation. Meditation only has two options where you can rest until a certain time of day and the preparation screen where you choose which potions to equip.

I assume armors and weapon upgrades will still be handled by blacksmiths. However, I wonder how the potions will be handled.

 

[BER7ERK]

As far as I'm concerned, THIS pretty much already struck a perfect balance for both camps.

There's the potion charges for people that don't like to gather ingredients and actively brew potions all the time and then there's the concept of 'recharging' the potions by re-brewing them, but at reduced requirements, i.e. only a fraction of the original amount of ingredients. And with the confirmation that gathering ingredients would be handled similarly to the previous installments, meaning with a relatively consistent distribution through picking herbs, looting cadavers or buying from vendors there should be hardly any shortage of ingredients at any time as well.

It's baffling why CDPR would abandon this approach in favour of going back full auto-refill again.
As far as I know, you never go full auto-refill.

I would be fine with that, although it doesnt make much sense that you need less after the first one.
Will there actually be something like experimenting and ? Or do you always need the recipe before you can actually craft something?

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

What I find interesting is that there doesn't appear to be a crafting UI at all, at least not within the main menu. In the videos we've seen Geralt go into the menu there are no options for crafting. There is just Inventory, Journal, Map, and Meditation. Meditation only has two options where you can rest until a certain time of day and the preparation screen where you choose which potions to equip.

I assume armors and weapon upgrades will still be handled by blacksmiths. However, I wonder how the potions will be handled.

Yeah but I think that is definitely due to the demo being an older build, especially since they were still experimenting on the system during E3 2014.

I would prefer TW1 alchemy system that you need alcohol potion base + TW2 alchemy system that you need to drink them before combat.
Auto refilling potions feels like dumbing down.

And in order to counter the problems Kondrad mentioned that most people don't use their potions, but save them for "later" I have a simple solution:
* from 1 herb you can make 5-10 potions
* increase potion duration
And in order to counter the problem that, you don't know what potions to take, because you have no idea whats coming:
* Allow few versatile potions, to be taken during combat, like Swallow, Rook, Tawny owl, so if you really get caught unprepared you have something to hold on.

Difficulty modifier options might also help.
So that you by choosing a harder difficulty have to get more ingredients for less potions.

The best thing would be to make it like Thief (2014) did it and just let the person choose if he/she wants to have full potions system or "simple" potions system.

As far as I'm concerned, THIS pretty much already struck a perfect balance for both camps.

There's the potion charges for people that don't like to gather ingredients and actively brew potions all the time and then there's the concept of 'recharging' the potions by re-brewing them, but at reduced requirements, i.e. only a fraction of the original amount of ingredients. And with the confirmation that gathering ingredients would be handled similarly to the previous installments, meaning with a relatively consistent distribution through picking herbs, looting cadavers or buying from vendors there should be hardly any shortage of ingredients at any time as well.

It's baffling why CDPR would abandon this approach in favour of going back full auto-refill again.
As far as I know, you never go full auto-refill.

This.
I do 100% agree. This would be perfect for me, would have no problem with that system.

I am also kind of confused now, we have about 3 versions flying around and don't know which one is the real one:

1. The version where everything automatically refills and you don't need ingredients after the first time
2. The version where YOU have to refill the potion during meditations but you do not need ingredients for it after 1st time
3. The version where YOU refill and you need ingredients but you need less than the 1st time

The only thing we know FOR SURE is that potions will have mutliple uses and that refill (no matter if manual or auto) will be able during meditation.

I personally would prefer - and actually only accept - Version 3.

I know it might be annoying that I repeat that all the time but we definitely need confirmation, something really clear so we know 100% WHICH system they have at the moment and if it is final or still being experimented on.

 

[EliHarel]

I think that due to its controversial nature, the auto-refill turned the attention away from what is, to me, a more fundamental issue. No offense meant - everyone prioritizes something else. In this case, I think the auto-refill is secondary to whether or not the alchemy is critical to combat, or just a few pleasant buffs.

This pal wrote it beautifully,

I think one key question was often ignored in our discussion here: why don't I use potions in TW2? This question is what sparked Konrad to change the alchemy system in the first place, but if potion rarity is not the cause of my disinterest in potions, then auto-refilling will not solve the problem for me.

Why didn't I use potions in TW2? For me, it was because the changes brought by potions were merely quantitative and not qualitative, and therefore could be replaced by a more intuitive effort: better clicking and swordsplay. Let me explain:

When I fought a group of drowners in the Forest of Flotsam, the most frequent cause of death for me was when several of them jump-attacked me (especially when from the back), and I was killed or fatally wounded instantly. Which potion was going to help with that? Certainly not Rook and Swallow. Again, when I fought enemies with shields, my greatest difficulty was to find a narrow angle to land an attack. Damage bonus from potions does not help if the shield is there. When I fought the dragon, her flaming damage is high, but I have Quen which cancels the burning debuff, why then do I worry about potions that cancels burning?

My point is, potions will be marginalized as long as they do not provide something beyond what can be achieved by faster clicking, better dodging and better sign casting. I am a stupid gamer unfamiliar with TW2 combat, so when I see the Game Over screen, my gut reaction is "damn, I need to play better next time." instead of "hmm, I wonder if I need to explore another game mechanic." And if all potions do is to enhance potion-less game mechanics, I would always think I can get away with potions by "playing better next time."

So I do have some little suggestions. What if we have a potion that heightens Geralt's reaction, so he enters a brief time dilation when enemies are about to strike a critical blow? I'd use that potion every time when fighting drowners. Or what if Rook, in addition to granting damage bonus, strengthens Geralt's muscle so he can shatter enemies' shields with few heavy blows? Or what if, as Geralt becomes intoxicated and looks scary, his intimidation is much more likely to success? Or what if the potion that grants sign intensity will now also unlock a powerful third stage of Geralt's signs? Or what about a potion that makes Geralt smell like a beast so wolves/nekkars would be quite confused in battle? etc. The spirit is that, just like swordsman and signs, potions should be able to do something that other mechanics cannot or can hardly do. Until this happens, merely granting infinite refills, I'm afriad, will not solve the problem of underused alchemy.

This is just my opinion. What do you guys think?

(Original post)

These things occupy me much more than whether filling my potions will involve resting or grinding. As much as an alcohol system of a game occupies me in my daily routine.

On this note, I also hope that potions will have some serious side-effects that will really make me consider carefully what to take, and if it's worth it. Something as simple as health degeneration doesn't sound significant enough. In the example kissybyc gave with time dilation before a strike from a quick enemy (a drowner) - what will be the sacrifice I make? And, again, I hope it's not just some statistic - damage, vigor - but, say, a move, something that changes the combat altogether.

Remembering kissybyc's post, this has actually become one of the main things I'm hoping CDPR will showcase next. Why alchemy is important, why potions are essential and not just complement quick button pressing. Why is the Witcher's potion system different from any other RPG we've seen - if at all.

When the alchemy systems of TW1 and TW2 are mentioned, what's usually discussed is how potions were made and how they were used. Not whether or not they were actually needed. In TW1 I rarely felt pushed enough to make potions crucial, and in TW2 they felt a tad more important only in the early stages of the game. Even then, I rarely found a use for anything other than the most 'basic' stuff - health and damage. Potions didn't feel varied enough.

This is my main concern for the alchemy in TW3 right now, and noot how to add them to my inventory. Will alchemy change the core of the battle, or just influence the numbers rolling behind the scenes?

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

I agree that this is one of the main reasons why potions were not really necessary in TW2 and probably also the reason why some people didn't use them.
If the potions have no effects that actively help me, then why take them.

A second reason was the mere fact that Monsters in TW2 were just not that strong. Most of them could be beaten without a potion. Which was also an argument for people not to use them.

Auto-Refill is just an un-needed solution. There are other ways to get people to use alchemy more, things that have more to do with the actual cause of people not using alchemy or potions in general in TW2.

 

[DukeAlmighty]

I agree that this is one of the main reasons why potions were not really necessary in TW2 and probably also the reason why some people didn't use them.
If the potions have no effects that actively help me, then why take them.

A second reason was the mere fact that Monsters in TW2 were just not that strong. Most of them could be beaten without a potion. Which was also an argument for people not to use them.

I don't know about you guys, but when playing on Hard I find myself dead quite often, if I dont take Swallow and Rook potion before battle.
In act I before you clear Nekkers and Endegras I always took them ahead going somewhere outside Flotsam.

 

[HellKnightX88]

Yeah, I found that they were necessary on the dark mode. Not so much on normal.

But still it's a very valid point. Most potions didn't really enhance gameplay in new ways, they just gave you passive stat boosts for the most part. I admit I was one of those people who thought that the problem was that the game didn't make it obvious enough that you need potions, it didn't punish you enough if you went in unprepared. But making potions actually add in new cool gameplay mechanics or at least enhancing existing ones sounds like a much better way of encouraging potion usage and it's way more fun.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

Yeah, I found that they were necessary on the dark mode. Not so much on normal.

But still it's a very valid point. Most potions didn't really enhance gameplay in new ways, they just gave you passive stat boosts for the most part. I admit I was one of those people who thought that the problem was that the game didn't make it obvious enough that you need potions, it didn't punish you enough if you went in unprepared. But making potions actually add in new cool gameplay mechanics or at least enhancing existing ones sounds like a much better way of encouraging potion usage and it's way more fun.

I think the mere fact that potions can be taken during combat is already something that helps a lot, considering a lot of people had a problem with not actually knowing when a boss battle started and being unprepared then.

IF you add harder monsters, the new upgrade system you also have a lot of good improvements.
Then add potions which also give you other advantages besides stat boosts (keep the stat boost potions as well of course).

IN the end the only change is see as NOT GOOD is the auto-refill, IF it even is still in the game. We do not know that atm.

 

[thislsmadness]

It is exaclty that. Why else would you remove these things? People want to gather the stuff. Auto refill makes gathering plants and so an unnecessary at some point.
Gathering plants is actually a really good thing to do when exploring something. I guess you could still do it then, but for what? You dont need them anymore.
In other games people go and collect alot of ingredients and store them or directly make potions out of them. Gathering ingredients actually is a basic feature for Open World RPGs. And like I already said, you may still be ablet to collect that stuff, but it is unnecessary.

I agree with ONLY ONCE, I don't think it has anything to do with appealing to CoD fans. I know a ton of them and I can't imagine any are going to be attracted to this game because they don't have to craft potions. Truthfully, you didn't have to craft them in TW1 or TW2 either. I believe CDPR when they say that the change is to encourage people to use Alchemy and stop hording ingredients.

 

[BER7ERK]

I agree with ONLY ONCE, I don't think it has anything to do with appealing to CoD fans. I know a ton of them and I can't imagine any are going to be attracted to this game because they don't have to craft potions. Truthfully, you didn't have to craft them in TW1 or TW2 either. I believe CDPR when they say that the change is to encourage people to use Alchemy and stop hording ingredients.

Nowhere did I say that it is there to appeal CoD fans.

 

[thislsmadness]

Nowhere did I say that it is there to appeal CoD fans.

I guess I'm confused by the point you were making then. You def said:

That is some main stream attitude to make the game easier for casuals who dont play very often. *cough* CoD *cough*

Which is what ONLY ONCE responded to.

 

[BER7ERK]

I guess I'm confused by the point you were making then. You def said:



Which is what ONLY ONCE responded to.

And where does this say that they want to appeal to CoD players???
I said that CoD does the same thing to appeal to casuals who dont want to spend time learning the game or collect stuff...

 

[thislsmadness]

And where does this say that they want to appeal to CoD players???
I said that CoD does the same thing to appeal to casuals who dont want to spend time learning the game or collect stuff...

Semantics. So go back and insert "casuals" in place of CoD in my above statement, it doesn't matter. The point still stands, I'm saying that this has nothing to do with dumbing the game down to appeal to that audience. Theyre changing it because people just didnt use alchemy in past games.