The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[Lieste]

But still...the enhancements are not unlimited.
When you have created all the superior potions, you have a lot of herbs around which are pratically useless.

True also of The Witcher (especially) and the Witcher 2. I had all the potions I needed, and more made, I had an inventory stuffed full with alchemy ingredients, and those I couldn't carry packed in huge quantities in my luggage at the inns. There wasn't any point in herb collecting for me at-all after the end of chapter 3 in The Witcher. Still did though because I could stuff a few dozen more of "that one" into the ingredient slot before it too was maxed out.
The same happened (more or less) after the end of Chapter 1 of Witcher 2... had all the potions I needed for the rest of the game and I only collected ingredients because they were there. (Crafting materials I was collecting and using throughout the game - but I had huge stocks of some materials in the luggage - there is also a little overlap between these).

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

True also of The Witcher (especially) and the Witcher 2. I had all the potions I needed, and more made, I had an inventory stuffed full with alchemy ingredients, and those I couldn't carry packed in huge quantities in my luggage at the inns. There wasn't any point in herb collecting for me at-all after the end of chapter 3 in The Witcher. Still did though because I could stuff a few dozen more of "that one" into the ingredient slot before it too was maxed out.
The same happened (more or less) after the end of Chapter 1 of Witcher 2... had all the potions I needed for the rest of the game and I only collected ingredients because they were there. (Crafting materials I was collecting and using throughout the game - but I had huge stocks of some materials in the luggage - there is also a little overlap between these).

I found it better in The Witcher 1 because based on when you go the books about the different herbs you had different numbers of them available. Obviously since you couldn't go back a chapter or re-enter the region of the last chapter most herbs had to be available in all areas which made especially early-game herbs being way too many in the end. But with the secondary substances and more high-level potions TW1 always kept me doing alchemy and searching for my personal ideal ingredients even in the later chapters. Sure, the collecting was a little bit less important later on in the game since you had most ingredients, but then again there was experimentation, secondary ingredients and the constant need for potions (on highest difficulty) that always kept me hooked in alchemy in TW1.

Different in TW2. There were only a few really useful potion combinations, the duration for the potions was way too short and the potions themselves where not needed, not even on dark. I used the potions often but only for immersion purposes, because I loved to roleplay being a Witcher. The monster were not hard enough to warrant potions and the ingredients where just stuffed EVERYWHERE, the potions system was simplified to a point where it was just a matter of having the right ingredients and clicking a button (no secondary ingredients, no mutagenic potions, etc) and in the end this is why I didn't use potions more often and why I lost interest in alchemy in TW2.

 

[moonknightgog]

True also of The Witcher (especially) and the Witcher 2. I had all the potions I needed, and more made, I had an inventory stuffed full with alchemy ingredients, and those I couldn't carry packed in huge quantities in my luggage at the inns. There wasn't any point in herb collecting for me at-all after the end of chapter 3 in The Witcher. Still did though because I could stuff a few dozen more of "that one" into the ingredient slot before it too was maxed out.
The same happened (more or less) after the end of Chapter 1 of Witcher 2... had all the potions I needed for the rest of the game and I only collected ingredients because they were there. (Crafting materials I was collecting and using throughout the game - but I had huge stocks of some materials in the luggage - there is also a little overlap between these).

The point in herb collecting, in The Witcher 1, is in the management of sub-ingredients, like Albedo, Rubedo and Nigredo.
Yes, you have a lot of ingredients to make all the basic potions, but still you have to keep focus on your inventory to make sure you have enough sub-ingredients.

 

[Lieste]

I had favourite mixes of potions with a common set of groups for different locations (anti-acid in swamps being one variation that was important - or anti-venom when fighting relevant monsters and some human mobs).

Selecting the secondary ingredients that made these potions most useful was fairly easy ~ and I'd have all three secondary effects active whenever potioned up, plus food and 'water' for their mild effects.

I had over 70 of nearly all plant ingredients and the more common monster ones (some were scarce enough that they ran out, or were valuable enough to sell on instead of using/storing). Whenever I had full stocks and the existing ones were low(ish) 20-30 or so and weren't obviously present to collect new examples of, I'd store this type in luggage and pick whatever example was it's local match. It was a bit silly though ~ wandering around with huge bags of plants and dead animals, plus a huge sack of gold, and a veritable library. At least in W1 the books took up space and weight... it was silly how they became weightless in the second.

 

[Solid_Altair]

I think it is there to allow players to use more potions/bombs and not just stockpile them and wait for the perfect opportunity to use them.
As they explained some people were reluctant to use them, because they though they might need it later on, thus always waiting for the right moment and in the end not using them.

I understand where they are coming from, but is this the right way to go about it? Well, less then a month left to find out.

This is similar to qhat Inquisition did. And it worked very well. Potions should have scarce slots, not scarce ingridients.This way people stop the hoarding and just uses them and have fun. And they still remain more limited than the Signs.

Get used to this fellows. It's one of the modern RPG trends, much like the lack of standard healing magic. It is the right thing to do, even if it sounds weird. Hence, the bravest developers are doing it.

 

[moonknightgog]

Get used to this fellows. It's one of the modern RPG trends, much like the lack of standard healing magic. It is the right thing to do, even if it sounds weird. Hence, the bravest developers are doing it.

LOL, no.
Nothing in Inquisition rapresent the "right thing to do".
All Inquisition is a good example of "how not make an RPG".

 

[azrael.1289]

This is similar to qhat Inquisition did. And it worked very well. Potions should have scarce slots, not scarce ingridients.This way people stop the hoarding and just uses them and have fun. And they still remain more limited than the Signs.

Get used to this fellows. It's one of the modern RPG trends, much like the lack of standard healing magic. It is the right thing to do, even if it sounds weird. Hence, the bravest developers are doing it.

If I remember correctly, you had to spend ingredients to refill all potions except health potion which auto refilled when you rested.

---------- Updated at 11:37 PM ----------

Fair enough, I give you that one. That is probably correct.

All I wanted to say is, they wanted to make alchemy more interesting and easy to use, and I do doubt they succeed, at least with the system the way it has been described to me so far.

On the other hand, you are right, people only had a limited time to play the game, they probably focused on story and direct combat, which is of course swordsmanship, signs, dialogue, quest-design, etc.



Yeah I'M both.

On the one hand I can't stand not being able to collect herbs and actually have to use them on potions because potions refilling without ingredients is bulls**t IMO, especially if you have herbs lying around everywhere, it's also immersion breaking and kicks me out of my roleplay experience.

On the other hand, if they would - AND I SAID IF, because I doubt they did it that way, although on the other hand it is the only sane explanation for so many herbs being around on the map in the gamplay videos - if they would make me collect 50 - 100s of herbs just to get the next upgrade I would be pretty annoyed and would probably not bother to try it.

Yes, ideally it's balanced. Still, the fact remains that a lot of herbs are ALL around the place but your potions auto-refill. Meaning we either have 500 different recipes for potions and bombs which all use some common herbs as part of their formula or we have to collect a LOT of the same herb for 1 potion or potion upgrade or we have a bunch of useless herbs everywhere on the map, because with auto-refill you only have to collect them ONCE. The last possibility is that you have to ALWAYS collect herbs in order to produce the more ADVANCED version of the potion, meaning whenever you want "superior swallow" or another "advanced" potion you need to actually collect the ingredients. Which I would find absolutely cool and surprising, but that is about the only way they can save this system for me personally.

No, different potions would need different herbs to upgrade and they probably won't need a 100 of them. I trust it to be balanced. I really don't find a major difference between this and previous games. You still collect herbs, you still need the formulae, only difference is in how the herbs are used which as a player, we shouldn't be bothered by unless it isn't balanced well.

This system suits me perfectly. In W1/W2, I used to collect everything I could and ended up with way more potions/herbs than I needed and yet I was reluctant to use potions unless as a last resort. They obviously don't want us to do that. They want potion use to be just as much a part of the gameplay as signs/swordplay and hence the change.

If you still have a problem with that, then I would say it's more of a psychological reaction to this auto refill system than any real impact on gameplay which while totally fair, no amount of explanation would solve.

CDPR can't please everybody and looks like you'd be the victim of that this time. Ah well, if you play on PC, I'd expect a mod to fix it soon enough.

---------- Updated at 11:40 PM ----------

LOL, no.
Nothing in Inquisition rapresent the "right thing to do".
All Inquisition is a good example of "how not make an RPG".

Yeah DA:I has more in common with most MMOs than other single player RPGs which is surprising considering it's a single player RPG.

 

[thislsmadness]

3. To have SO MANY herbs around is just a waste of development and memory resources if you can't use them. And if you only have to collect once and then don't need ingredients anymore you basically don't need them. Sure, upgrades, but even those are done after some time.

Potentially, there's a large variety of Potions, Bombs, Oils, and each enhanced through (multiple?) upgrades. In addition to that there may be quests and other consumables such as foods and beverages that use herbs. Maybe collecting Herbs indigenous to Skellige and selling them in Novigrad is a way to make a few extra crowns.

I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

 

[schinderhannes.999]

So... does any of the press event footage released so far show anything of this so called 'improved' alchemy system, in particular the streamlined preparation procedure in action?

I'll be damned if I watch just one second and be spoiled even the least bit.

 

[web-head91]

So... does any of the press event footage released so far show anything of this so called 'improved' alchemy system, in particular the streamlined preparation procedure in action?

I'll be damned if I watch just one second and be spoiled even the least bit.

My thoughts exactly. if any of the forum members could make some sort of summary of the important gameplay points, such as the alchemy system, it'd be great

 

[frynse]

Still going through it, but all the impressions I've gotten so far is just what I feared.
No animation for drinking is a huge oversight in a game where they pay so much detail to pretty every other detail, and the potions last so short that they can hardly bring you through most encounters which making pouring one down after the other seem pretty ridiculous. I really just wish they could nerf the power of the potions slightly and balance it out by having them last longer.

 

[web-head91]

Still going through it, but all the impressions I've gotten so far is just what I feared.
No animation for drinking is a huge oversight in a game where they pay so much detail to pretty every other detail, and the potions last so short that they can hardly bring you through most encounters which making pouring one down after the other seem pretty ridiculous. I really just wish they could nerf the power of the potions slightly and balance it out by having them last longer.

thank you very much for taking the time to go through the videos. i appreciate it.
also, if what you said is true about the potions, then that really REALLY sucks. for all we know, alchemy may have become just a gimmick that's not necessary to beat the game -sobs-

 

[Solid_Altair]

If I remember correctly, you had to spend ingredients to refill all potions except health potion which auto refilled when you rested.

You are correct. But the ingridients to actually make the potions were very basic. Even if you rush potion upgrades (some consume the same ingridients that make the potions), you won't lack herbs for long. And this is coming from a guy who doesn't farm and hates farming.

The point is that the scarcity is more about the slots and less about the ingridients. That's the new trend.

 

[Vigilance.492]

alchemy may have become just a gimmick that's not necessary to beat the game -sobs-

Let's be honest, you could beat both previous games easily without using any potions. So if it's a gimmick in 3 because of that reason, then it was a gimmick in the previous games.

I think the biggest take-away from the Youtuber footage is ultimately how pointless the design change for Alchemy truly is. The whole point, or so it seems based on Developer explanations, was that they wanted to have a system that encourages experimentation with Alchemy, and encourages people to use it, not hoard potions etc.
However here we have hours of Youtuber's playing the game, and 90% of them still don't fucking bother with Alchemy. Call it anecdotal, but I think you'll find the way these Youtuber's play the game, is going to be how the majority of people end up playing it.

I made the following statement almost a year ago now, and it now seems eerily on point with what we're seeing.

I think if people never bothered with potions, they never really 'understood' The Witcher (If you knew how to use them & understood their purpose then you don't count, I'm talking about people that never bothered & never understood it). This change feels like it's being done for those people & they're scrapping an entire section of what was so immersive & interesting about Alchemy, for those people & that's what gets my back up. As I said, these people probably won't bother using Potions in TW3 either. If they didn't 'get it' in the previous games & never bothered, they're not magically going to decide to use them in TW3 because they're infinite.

 

[Solid_Altair]

It is still a step in the right direction. The more analytical players will use more potions and experiment more with them. That's what matters. Noobs don't count.

 

[Vigilance.492]

It is still a step in the right direction. The more analytical players will use more potions and experiment more with them. That's what matters. Noobs don't count.

Kind of makes my point.

"Analytical Players" are the kind of people who would experiment and use the system even if they had to re-brew everything. They are the people who understand what Alchemy means, and many of those people gain extra pleasure from the act of having to craft everything and consider it that enjoyable extra step of preparation rather than just slotting the correct infinite potion into your pockets.
Those are the kind of players that used and experimented both the Alchemy systems in the previous games, and having to re-brew or farm a few herbs never stopped them from doing that.

The new system is mostly designed to achieve things like stopping people from hoarding, and encouraging more folk in general to use Alchemy. Which if the Youtuber's is anything to go off, those kind of people are clearly just ignoring the system almost entirely anyway. Makes the big system change seem pretty bloody pointless to me.

 

[mecha_fish]

I've seen a few people say they'd use the system because it seems necessary, where in other games they never used potions because it was just utterly pointless. I can't say whether that's because this is the first witcher game they've seen though. they could think the same thing about tw1/tw2. I guess that just speaks to the general atmosphere of the series in regards to alchemy.

 

[MasterDassJennir]

Potions were usefull on Witcher 1 but a lot less on Witcher 2, where most of the time you could just advance using signs, sword skills and a few bombs.
Anyway, i will need to see how it works on Witcher 3.Better not to talk about things I dont know yet.

 

[thislsmadness]

Kind of makes my point.

"Analytical Players" are the kind of people who would experiment and use the system even if they had to re-brew everything. They are the people who understand what Alchemy means, and many of those people gain extra pleasure from the act of having to craft everything and consider it that enjoyable extra step of preparation rather than just slotting the correct infinite potion into your pockets.
Those are the kind of players that used and experimented both the Alchemy systems in the previous games, and having to re-brew or farm a few herbs never stopped them from doing that.

The new system is mostly designed to achieve things like stopping people from hoarding, and encouraging more folk in general to use Alchemy. Which if the Youtuber's is anything to go off, those kind of people are clearly just ignoring the system almost entirely anyway. Makes the big system change seem pretty bloody pointless to me.

I have only seen the AJ Joe video, Gopher's video, and the "Ultra" guy. My reaction to those is.. why would you waste potions on random bandits and wolves? You can pretty much see that same attitude toward all of the complimentary combat systems. The "I'm gonna whack this thing with my sword" is the preferred approach because that is all that is necessary for the encounters we see in these previews. Would you be gulping down thunderbolts to kill a couple of drowners?

Quickly scrubbing through those videos actually does show some depleted potion charges and one guy even has an oil applied to his weapon, so these things aren't being entirely neglected. The combination of inexperienced players and the aimlessly-wonder-the openworld-style of these previews is not really conductive to drawing conclusions about what does and doesnt work.

 

[EliHarel]

I have only seen the AJ Joe video, Gopher's video, and the "Ultra" guy. My reaction to those is.. why would you waste potions on random bandits and wolves? You can pretty much see that same attitude toward all of the complimentary combat systems. The "I'm gonna whack this thing with my sword" is the preferred approach because that is all that is necessary for the encounters we see in these previews. Would you be gulping down thunderbolts to kill a couple of drowners?

Quickly scrubbing through those videos actually does show some depleted potion charges and one guy even has an oil applied to his weapon, so these things aren't being entirely neglected. The combination of inexperienced players and the aimlessly-wonder-the openworld-style of these previews is not really conductive to drawing conclusions about what does and doesnt work.

+ The difficulty level.

I always found it as a branch of the game that's only truly relevant when you play on Dark. I played TW1 and TW2 on their highest difficulties and I still didn't feel a need to use potions all the time. Not even most of the time.

At the moment I'm cautiously optimistic about the design change to alchemy - that you still need to prepare beforehand, but you activate the effects for a small duration, when the fight pushes you against the wall. Instead of running around frantically like in TW2 just to make use of the benefits before they wear off, or have them stick with you for hours like in TW1. But as with everything else, these are just vague impressions, and they might change once I play the game and feel it for myself.