The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[Scholdarr.452]

Since he hardly drinks any potions and uses any signs in the books, why not just scrap them from the game? It will be more true to the books that way, right?

Lore should be used as a guideline and a set of rules that need to be bent when needed for the sake of gameplay, because gameplay is the most important thing in a game, otherwise it is very likely to end up with a boring and not balanced game full of grinding and not fun to play at all.
What is the point of creating a very true to the books game, that turns out is not fun to play, what if those true to lore mechanics just don't work well in a video game and are just a pain in the ass to use?

Your argument doesn't have much to be grounded on since there are already two games in the franchise which stick more closely to the books in that regard. You can of course say that alchemy sucked in Witcher 1 and/or 2 but that's a whole different story...

And your defintion of gameplay is imho way too short-sighted. For me, "gameplay" is more than just simple (combat) mechanics and mathematical equations. For me, the narrative for example is part of the gameplay sphere, especially when we talk about an RPG. It's for me, personally, of crucial importance, how the narrative and the game mechanics blend together and how one is integrated into the other and how one supports the other. And maybe, you can't understand my opinion on that topic from a point of view of somebody who hasn't read the books multiple times and love them to death. For me, this game is more than "just" a game with some nice mechanics. For me, this is an entry into a franchise I love and lore I know backwards, even if it's just "fan fiction". Changing systems in a way that clearly and openly violates the rules in which the world and its characters work takes something away with only the possible prospect of a slightly improved mechanic.

And auto-refill is obviously not my biggest issue with the alchemy system in that respect. I could live with that. But I hate the idea of using potions during fights like in every other generic fantasy game. That's not how potions work in the Witcher world. That's not what potions promise in terms of narrative integration. And I also don't understand the reasons for changing that system. I don't see how this should make combat or the overall experience any better. It just takes away from the uniqueness of the game and its world for a generic fantasy RPG approach. Probably just because people are used to it. And that sucks.

Auto refill and drinking during combat is one way of addressing things that could work very well. You have your preferences, but there's no proof that it's bad. We'll be able to determine that when the game lands.

It's already bad from a lore and atmosphere perspective. And I'm quite experienced in playing RPGs and evaluating their design, so I have a pretty good guess how the gameplay integration of alchemy will turn out.

The lack of a drinking animation is not a big deal as well, it doesn't change much of the flow of the game, unless the animation is long and Geralt just stands like an idiot drinking for a solid few seconds..

It's not a big deal for you, ok. Maybe it's not a "big" deal for me neither. But it's something that is disappointing because it IMHO reduces the atmosphere and immersion of the game.

Hey, don't you take away people's sense of elitism. Don't you know that "niche" necessarily means "better"?

Sell, usually that's exactly the case. In almost all cases "niche" IS better than "mainstream" in gaming, at least by what CAN be achieved (that doesn't mean that each niche game is better than each mainstream game of course). But the potential of niche games for a higher fulfilment of wishes and expectations of its core democracy is just better by the very nature of its design. There is actually nothing to discuss here.

I dislike it when people attack certain systems by obnoxiously stating how they're for newbs, people who don't give a shit about the games and lore, that they're dumbing down the game for the sake of masses, and other very general statements of that sort.

That wasn't a general statement. My post is "a bit" longer than that...

And please read my post again. I never said that everybody who doesn't share my opinion is a noob or doesn't give a shit about the world and lore. That's overinterpretation on your behalf. I said that I think that at least a part of CDPR's reasoning for changing the alchemy system was to make it more accessible to that sort of people. That's a huge difference...

I love TW1 and TW2. There were things in them I disliked. Even TW1's alchemy, which is so often romanticized here as perfect.

I love Witcher 1 and 2 as well. And I agree, not everything in them was perfect, far from it. But I also love the books, even more so the games. I love them for very specific reasons and that translates to the whole world and every medium that is set in this world.

 

[moonknightgog]

And auto-refill is obviously not my biggest issue with the alchemy system in that respect. I could live with that. But I hate the idea of using potions during fights like in every other generic fantasy game. That's not how potions work in the Witcher world. That's not what potions promise in terms of narrative integration. And I also don't understand the reasons for changing that system. I don't see how this should make combat or the overall experience any better. It just takes away from the uniqueness of the game and its world for a generic fantasy RPG approach. Probably just because people are used to it. And that sucks.

.

Tha fact is that this wouldn't be so hard to make.
Now, you have to equip your potions and drink them in combat.
They could make this:

Go in meditation.
Drink potions.
Now potions appear like "equipped.
In combat you simply "activate" the effects of the potions you have drinked.

It would work in the same way, but more lore-friendly.
And it would solve the lacking of drinking animations in combat.

 

[Solid_Altair]

What @web-head91 was trying to bring across (I think) is, that crafting and 'recrafting' a potion in the previous installments contributed (quite significantly for a decent percentage of the audience) to the overall immersive experience of being or properly role-playing a Witcher. Having to gather ingredients, either through picking herbs or slaying creatures for body parts and then actively preparing the potions, exchanging certain ingredients to produce different combinations of the alchemical components contained within (for more beneficial side effects or blocking out negative side effects of the resulting potions) and so on.

Think of it as a 'the journey is the reward' kind of experience, where you are able to derive enjoyment and a sort of fulfillment or gratification from having to put at least some effort in being able to use potions at the end of the day.
Resting/meditating and just having your used up potions refill, more or less out of the blue with no (real) effort or any input from the player whatsoever is just plain too easy and on top of that takes the actual experimentation (and fun part) out of the procedure.

There would be no grind or less grind if CDPR actually would have listenend and taken notice of some of the countless suggestions and solutions (in this very thread, by the way) for an alchemy system 3.0 that could have satisfied both proponents of the old ways and new.
Personally I would have gathered or stocked only the exact amount of ingredients needed to create or recreate X potions/potion charges anyway. That's what looking up formulae is usually there for, avoiding 'over-grinding' and accidentally hoarding way too much ingredients.

And I find it hard to imagine that gathering or 'grinding' for ingredients once in a while (when the multiple charges per potion are actually used up) would have made up the lion's share of the 200+ hours the game supposedly has to offer or would have kept you from focusing on other things that are there to do.

Firstly, I appreciate the detailed reply.

I'd say the journey is still there, to craft/unlock the first potion, or gathering stuff to upgrade it (if such a system will be in... it was in Inquisition). The easy refill just make it so you don't need to repeat the journey.

I see people talking about the actual potions being dumbed down. It seems in previous games players could combo potions. I didn't play the other ones, cause I'm a PS guy... just watched them a lot on youtube... some great footage, btw... unlike SoM's footage. Anyways, if they're simplifying the tactical use of potions, I'd say that's probably a bad thing. But this has nothing to do with the easy refilling and the limited slots. I don't know if most people realise, but you can make a very tactical use of potions in Inquisition... just sayin'.

As for the potential of grinding potions taking too much time, just take a look at Skyrim. I just did the stuff that was in my way and the alchemy system took a ridiculous amount of time. The previous Witcher games might not have had grinding, but they weren't open world. In an open world RPG without their new alchemy rules, grinding would be a big tendency.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Tha fact is that this wouldn't be so hard to make.
Now, you have to equip your potions and drink them in combat.
They could make this:

Go in meditation.
Drink potions.

Should be done and finished here.

In combat you simply "activate" the effects of the potions you have drinked.

I don't see how this is necessary. It changes how potions worked so far (in both the previous games and the overall lore) completely.

And it would solve the lacking of drinking animations in combat.

If there are no potions in combat there is of course no need for drinking animations during combat...


Jesus, this game really requires a lot of mods...

 

[Solid_Altair]

My bad, I didn't realize you were talking in code. And yes, you have every right to point out your opinion that these changes are unnecessary and I'm sure they appreciate the feedback. I'm also willing to bet that they very much disagree with you. That doesn't mean that they don't care about the few hundred people that voted No in this poll, it just means they have a different vision for this aspect of the game.

And the ba**s to follow through with it.

 

[Assalander]

Tha fact is that this wouldn't be so hard to make.
Now, you have to equip your potions and drink them in combat.
They could make this:

Go in meditation.
Drink potions.
Now potions appear like "equipped.
In combat you simply "activate" the effects of the potions you have drinked.

It would work in the same way, but more lore-friendly.
And it would solve the lacking of drinking animations in combat.

I actually thought that's how it worked for a while.

I'll just convince myself it's still the case while playing, Geralt just needing to drink some booze from time to time in order to prolong the effects of herbs :cheers:

 

[moonknightgog]

Should be done and finished here.


I don't see how this is necessary. It changes how potions worked so far (in both the previous games and the overall lore) completely.


If there are no potions in combat there is of course no need for drinking animations during combat...


Jesus, this game really requires a lot of mods...

The problem with...drink the potion and you have done is that...it doesn't work.
Because you don't know when you will encounter in a boss, or in a super tough fight, so you can't prepare. And if you can't prepare, you are...well, you are probably fucked in combat.
This was a great problem in TW2.

Activate potions in combat would solve this issue, keeping the system still lore firendly.

 

[ub3rprogmr]

Tha fact is that this wouldn't be so hard to make.
Now, you have to equip your potions and drink them in combat.
They could make this:

Go in meditation.
Drink potions.
Now potions appear like "equipped.
In combat you simply "activate" the effects of the potions you have drinked.

It would work in the same way, but more lore-friendly.
And it would solve the lacking of drinking animations in combat.

Are u people kind of stupid.. this exactly is how it works in the game.
Hence also no drinking animation >.<".
Go buy yourselves some brainz plz

 

[moonknightgog]

Are u people kind of stupid.. this exactly is how it works in the game.
Hence also no drinking animation >.<".
Go buy yourselves some brainz plz

...
Based on the footage released so far, it doesn't.
I don't know, maybe I'm stupid, but show me how it is supposed to work in the exactly way I wrote.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

The problem with...drink the potion and you have done is that...it doesn't work.
Because you don't know when you will encounter in a boss, or in a super tough fight, so you can't prepare. And if you can't prepare, you are...well, you are probably fucked in combat.

That's acutally the unique approach of the witcher world. You don't use potions in every fight. You only use them when you hunt down a specific, dangerous creature. It's not a big problem to balance the game for such an approach. Of course that doesn't work if you need to drink potions to be able to kill generic bandit X and generic wolf Y. Again, potions in the witcher world work as a "weapon of last resort". There is a reason why Geralt uses them so rarely anyway: they're toxic. In the books Geralt is really tired when he drank them and the effect went away. Drinking potions in the books and - to a lesser extend - in the previous games came with a cost. This cost is even more reduced in Witcher 3 now. That makes potions in their original sense completely pointless. The potions in Witcher 3 are actually not even comparable to those of the books and almost not to those of previous games. They work on a completely different basis, changing their whole effect, the whole gameplay and their whole narrative integration.

This was a great problem in TW2.

Not for me. I finished the game on Dark without ever thinking about the alchemy system being a problem...

And there is of course a way to make potions work. The more carefully you explore and the more carefully you roleplay the more the "traditional" potions make sense and "work" from a gameplay perspective. You just have to be careful. Don't just run forward but look out for dangerous enemies and avoid them. Come back for them when you're properly prepared for the fight. And of course there are surprise encounters which SHOULD threaten your life without being able to prepare. That makes the game and the world even more interesting and diversified. You shouldn't be able to be prepared for everything. And I guess you will die on harder difficulty modes a lot anyway. Enough time to learn where enemies are and how they behave. And enough time to properly prepare.

So you see, drinking potions in combat isn't really necessary, at least if you value careful exploration and be a bit patient. That was the unique approach of the previous games and the unique approach of the books and the world. It's was traded in for a generic accessible version that can be played by everyone, even by people with a concentration span of less than 2 minutes without any patience at all. Mainstream design at its best...

Activate potions in combat would solve this issue, keeping the system still lore firendly.

That's not lore-friendly at all imho. That's just no how potions function in this very world. Period.

 

[Assalander]

I feel you and the 1st witcher did a nice job in that regard, with only a few skills upgrading alchemy. Back then the whole "last resort" thing and "surprise attacks are annoying for a reason" worked nicely. Once CDPR decided to put alchemy skills at the same level than swordmanship and signs, with a whole tree dedicated to it, then Sapkowski's vision was out. AoK was as guilty of that as WH is. And it was worse back then because it also sucked gameplay-wise, for someone who put most of his points in alchemy was just not getting most benefits from his skills in case of a surprise attack. Not a great design in my opinion.

 

[Valvatti87]

I likd the alchemy system in TW2. Best in any rpg ive played thus far. (never played TW1) Only thing bothering me is how easy it is to refill potions.
Using potions shouldnt become this generig thing that u push button just before a fight. do some killing and just quick meditate afterwards to fill youre bottles.
This new system requires more roleplaying. artificially limit youre self to not drink anything until big monster fight or something. It should be last resort, not some thing u just do..

Hmm maybe there should be withdrawal time. Depending on your toxicity lvl..

 

[Phalzyr]

Not for me

Yeah it wasn't for me either except for that I'd run into a situation get overwhelmed because I hadn't prepped then have to reload and knowing what was going to come I prep... Didn't happen often (wasn't playing on dark either) but it was annoying to not be able to chug a potion during battle.

I could see it not allowing you to chug a potion while in melee range or otherwise physically being hit, but allow it when neither of those are met. Being able to drink a potion while surrounded by drowners pounding on you is a bit silly... Not sure how complicated that'd be to implement though.

 

[val.mitev]

Your argument doesn't have much to be grounded on since there are already two games in the franchise which stick more closely to the books in that regard. You can of course say that alchemy sucked in Witcher 1 and/or 2 but that's a whole different story...

And your defintion of gameplay is imho way too short-sighted. For me, "gameplay" is more than just simple (combat) mechanics and mathematical equations. For me, the narrative for example is part of the gameplay sphere, especially when we talk about an RPG. It's for me, personally, of crucial importance, how the narrative and the game mechanics blend together and how one is integrated into the other and how one supports the other. And maybe, you can't understand my opinion on that topic from a point of view of somebody who hasn't read the books multiple times and love them to death. For me, this game is more than "just" a game with some nice mechanics. For me, this is an entry into a franchise I love and lore I know backwards, even if it's just "fan fiction". Changing systems in a way that clearly and openly violates the rules in which the world and its characters work takes something away with only the possible prospect of a slightly improved mechanic.

And auto-refill is obviously not my biggest issue with the alchemy system in that respect. I could live with that. But I hate the idea of using potions during fights like in every other generic fantasy game. That's not how potions work in the Witcher world. That's not what potions promise in terms of narrative integration. And I also don't understand the reasons for changing that system. I don't see how this should make combat or the overall experience any better. It just takes away from the uniqueness of the game and its world for a generic fantasy RPG approach. Probably just because people are used to it. And that sucks.

The world of the Witcher has its rules and CDPR are honoring them, but in the end it's a game that needs to be engaging and fun to play and I think they deliver in spades.

The example with the signs and potions not being used in the books, thus removing them, it was just to illustrate that we can't base everything on the books literally. Using the sings is a ton of fun, so are the potions and the alchemy and they honor the Witcher world, but they are also game mechanics that need to work in the greater context of the game world and how it all comes together.
The tweaks to the alchemy and potion drinking, the improved combat, the new skill system, I think that they are coming together in a way that hopefully is going to be bigger than the sum of its parts.

To me the missing animation for drinking is not an issue, the auto refill is also not that big of a deal, what is important to me is that the potions are useful, they are fun to create and use, finding rare ingredients should be fun and integrated into the flow of the game without turning them into a fetch quest, creating potions should include experimentation and the collection of ingredients should not become a chore, balancing the potions effects and durations alongside the game difficulty so that they are essential or at least important on the higher difficulties. It's not an easy task.

We all know that the strong narrative, the decisions and the consequences, the unique characters and their fate are what makes the Witcher games so unique and they are all there, no surprises in this regard. So yeah, there's no way it's going to be a generic fantasy game. :cheers:

 

[Lieste]

I'd say that taking elixirs and then using their effect later at will has grounding in the books. As in Baptism of Fire when fighting in the bridge battle and he 'finds' the necessary concentration of power for Igni "despite it being many weeks since imbibing any elixirs".

We use food and the energy contained in them in similar ways every day. Storing the energy as glycogen within the muscles usable "on demand" but short lived, and toxic 'cheap breakdown' of fats also for high intensity short duration activity, and recovering and break down of lactic acid and fats in general in the liver into glucose used to replenish or augment the muscle glucose. With a mutated body, the utilisation of other energy stores and hormones/elixirs doesn't seem a very large stretch to me.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

The world of the Witcher has its rules and CDPR are honoring them, but in the end it's a game that needs to be engaging and fun to play and I think they deliver in spades.

That's not an argument. This discussion isn't about whether the whole game is good or not. It's just about potions.

The example with the signs and potions not being used in the books, thus removing them, it was just to illustrate that we can't base everything on the books literally. Using the sings is a ton of fun, so are the potions and the alchemy and they honor the Witcher world, but they are also game mechanics that need to work in the greater context of the game world and how it all comes together.

Again, that's just words without any content, sorry. You should work in marketing or PR...

Truth is that there were systems in place in the two previous games that were way closer to the books and lore than the one envisioned for TW3. TW1 and TW2 were obviously a ton of fun and there also were a ton of people who enjoyed the respective alchemy systems in these games for specific reasons. Being lore friendly was one of these reasons. obviously. Until you tell my WHY the new system will be better you basically lack a real argument here.

The tweaks to the alchemy and potion drinking, the improved combat, the new skill system, I think that they are coming together in a way that hopefully is going to be bigger than the sum of its parts.

The combat system is basically the same than in W2. I don't see how the potions should add to a better overall experience.

To me the missing animation for drinking is not an issue, the auto refill is also not that big of a deal,

Good to know. But it's kind of obvious that it is a deal for others...

what is important to me is that the potions are useful

And what makes them useful in your opinion? How do you define "useful"?

they are fun to create and use,

I don't see how using potions in any way is fun. And the creation process isn't that much different from the other two games. And once you've created a potion in TW3 all the fun is gone since it's just automatically done after that...

finding rare ingredients should be fun and integrated into the flow of the game without turning them into a fetch quest, creating potions should include experimentation and the collection of ingredients should not become a chore,

Agreed. But actually the opposite is true in TW3. Since we obviously will (be forced to) use a lot more potions than in the previous games (especially TW2), we will also have to collect much more ingredients. So there is the actual danger that the collection of ingredients will become a major occupation in TW3. I don't think that's an interesting or meaningful occuption. It's just tedious busy-work (as it was e.g. in DAI).

About rare ingredients: their collection was already quite well done in TW2. I don't see how changing the alchemy system in TW3 makes the collection of rare ingredients any more interesting...

balancing the potions effects and durations alongside the game difficulty so that they are essential or at least important on the higher difficulties. It's not an easy task.

Agreed. That already was the case in TW1 and TW1 as well.

We all know that the strong narrative, the decisions and the consequences, the unique characters and their fate are what makes the Witcher games so unique and they are all there, no surprises in this regard. So yeah, there's no way it's going to be a generic fantasy game. :cheers:

Again, we're not talking about the overall game, we're talking about alchemy and potions. That's in no way related to whether the rest of the overall game is good or not. Nobody here said that the whole game was generic. I've said that the alchermy system is way more generic and unique than before. Pointing out that the whole game is still more unique than other games is nothing than a strawman argument without any meaning and contribution to this discussion, sorry. It's like telling me "You're not allowed to criticize element X because the whole game will be good". Great, ok. So let's stop all discussions and threads about the game and let us just praise CDPR all day long instead...

---------- Updated at 10:18 PM ----------

I'd say that taking elixirs and then using their effect later at will has grounding in the books. As in Baptism of Fire when fighting in the bridge battle and he 'finds' the necessary concentration of power for Igni "despite it being many weeks since imbibing any elixirs".

Cool story, bro. I just don't see how concentrating has anything to do with drinking potions...

You're just making something up here, searching for arguments for a system that is obviously different from the lore. But you "I defend everything CDPR does" guys are actually quite good in what you do and I somehow admire you for your creativity...

 

[Kinley]

Cool story, bro.

you "I defend everything CDPR does" guys

Keep up with this tone of voice and you might be faced with a time out. You're getting a bit out of hand.

 

[EliHarel]

Again, that's just words without any content, sorry. You should work in marketing or PR...

[...]

Cool story, bro. I just don't see how concentrating has anything to do with drinking potions...

You're just making something up here, searching for arguments for a system that is obviously different from the lore. But you "I defend everything CDPR does" guys are actually quite good in what you do and I somehow admire you for your creativity...

Wow. You're just becoming more snide by the day. I'm kinda shocked, and not sure how to digest that post. What the heck is happening here? This place is becoming really low. Lieste offered a thought for discussion about how something in the books could be related to this. I remember when forums were a place for that, instead of this constant bickering. I happen to disagree with Lieste, by the way. But that's it.

As for the actual "discussion" (though it seems to me as just another platform - out of many others nowadays - for endless complaining under a guise of "caring" for a game), I'm not that convinced by that passage @Lieste , I think it was a very rare moment for Geralt in the books. But I also don't think that the lore is the deciding factor here or should be. If lore had to be prioritized over everything, this probably wouldn't be an RPG to begin with, and Signs as well as Alchemy would take a much more negligible role. Lore offers inspiration, but when it comes to abilities, gameplay considerations should trump the lore, I believe.

In case I would be asked what are the gameplay considerations behind activating them when you choose - the ones I see are keeping the short and focused duration of TW2's potions (instead of the hours-long durations of TW1's), maintaining the need to prepare beforehand (so no drinking mid battle), but not making them completely irrelevant (which might be the case in TW2 since a lot of it was guesswork, and you could find yourself after 10 minutes without a battle). I think this marriage of the two systems can work.

As for implementation - as always, and this isn't some dodging maneuver - we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Keep up with this tone of voice and you might be faced with a time out. You're getting a bit out of hand.

You're right. I'm sorry about that one.

---------- Post merged on 30-04-2015 at 12:00 AM ----------

Wow. You're just becoming more snide by the day

Thanks. I can't say your constant complaining about MY posts aren't a big joy neither...

But for my defense: it wasn't the first time Lieste acted that way. Anyway, that was a bit too much and I'm sorry. Case closed.

(though it seems to me as just another platform - out of many others nowadays - for endless complaining under a guise of "caring" for a game)

And it seems to me that you use every possible occasion to point out that you don't value criticism, especially not if coming from me. If you want to counter posts do so by delivering actual arguments. Not by saying in every second answer to any of my posts that you think "that I'm just endlessly complaining under a guise of caring for a game." Since stuff like the one with which you began your post is just ad hominem and not constructive (and no, it seems you're not better than me in that regard). How does that sound? Just saying...

As for the actual "discussion" [...], I'm not that convinced by that passage @Lieste , I think it was a very rare moment for Geralt in the books. But I also don't think that the lore is the deciding factor here or should be. If lore had to be prioritized over everything, this probably wouldn't be an RPG to begin with, and Signs as well as Alchemy would take a much more negligible role. Lore offers inspiration, but when it comes to abilities, gameplay considerations should trump the lore, I believe.

In that specific topic lore and gameplay go hand in hand very much. The alchemy systems in TW1 and TW2 weren't just "inspired" by the lore. The whole internal logic of these systems was directly based on how alchemy worked in the books. That's much more than just inspiration. I don't see how the new system (in particular: using up to three potions directly in combat) makes the gameplay experience any better (different yes, better no) but it obviously sacrifice a good chunk of the believablity/lore/immersion of the world.

In case I would be asked what are the gameplay considerations behind activating them when you choose - the ones I see are keeping the short and focused duration of TW2's potions (instead of the hours-long durations of TW1's), maintaining the need to prepare beforehand (so no drinking mid battle), but not making them completely irrelevant (which might be the case in TW2 since a lot of it was guesswork, and you could find yourself after 10 minutes without a battle). I think this marriage of the two systems can work.

They were a weapon of last resort in TW2 and many people only used them before hard battles (e.g. Kayran). I don't see why this is actually a bad thing. I also don't see why alchemy must be "on the same level as swordfighting", as it was said here before. I see that using signs can be quite fun so I agree that making signs more useable and probably powerful in the game can be a good thing in terms of gameplay. I don't see how alchemy in the way it's envisioned for TW3 adds anything to the game that wasn't made better and also more unique before.

But as I've said before: a system that is lore-friendly requires a patient and careful player, especially in high difficulty grades. I don't see how that could be wrong. The old system offered more challenge because it was part of the system that you never really knew what you will encounter if you just enter the woods without direction. But usually you have a quest and you also know something about your enemy so it's not THAT hard to prepare properly. I agree though that the potion durations in TW2 were extremely short, imo way too short. The same system than in TW2 with longer potion durations (and even more negative effects after the duriation is over) would have been way more promising than the new system in TW3..

And there could have been even a third way by just giving players the option to choose. You want a "pure" way of playing, with a bigger challenge? Just turn off potions during combat in the menu, let's call it "classic alchemy mode".

 

[EliHarel]

Thanks. I can't say your constant complaining about MY posts aren't a big joy neither...

But for my defense: it wasn't the first time Lieste acted that way. Anyway, that was a bit too much and I'm sorry. Case closed.

If your defense is others not acting for the first time in a certain way, then I have a pretty solid defense of similar sort, for answering in the tone I did to you, considering how you constantly belittle almost everyone on the boards
Did I use the disdainful winking emoticon right?

And it seems to me that you use every possible occasion to point out that you don't value criticism, especially not if coming from me. If you want to counter posts do so by delivering actual arguments. Not by saying in every second answer to any of my posts that you think "that I'm just endlessly complaining under a guise of caring for a game." Since stuff like the one with which you began your post is just ad hominem and not constructive (and no, it seems you're not better than me in that regard). How does that sound? Just saying...

I value criticism. We have different understandings of it. Me not liking your posts does not mean I do not value criticism. As I told you many times, it's not rare for me to agree with your content, but I think the way you go about your posts is obnoxious and counter-productive. And the arguments did arrive in the second half of my post. You know that, since you yourself commented on them. My post is not just ad hominem, so as you advised me a few days ago - stop making stuff up (and I still stand behind the complaining comment - if only because there's just no point to it anymore).

Also, when something is pathological, ad hominem isn't completely baseless. Wink (?).

Ok, I'll drop the winks. They're not for me, and I find them disparaging and antagonizing more than anything. There's enough antagonism as is.

In that specific topic lore and gameplay go hand in hand very much. The alchemy systems in TW1 and TW2 weren't just "inspired" by the lore. The whole internal logic of these systems was directly based on how alchemy worked in the books. That's much more than just inspiration.

I'm not sure what "whole internal logic means", especially since the two systems aren't consistent. Out of curiosity, I'd like to hear how you understand this internal logic.

But, I'll quickly add that I think this is moving the goalposts. I said that I believe gameplay should trump lore when it comes to abilities, and I still think that. So accordingly, even if TW1 and TW2 were more loyal to the lore (which requires explanation since it's not intuitive, considering they have opposing characteristics), that in itself doesn't mean TW3 must not digress from them - if they didn't have perfect alchemy systems for a game.

As to why they might not have been good, it's hard to argue in objective terms to this side or that. Some like long duration, some like short. Some like being able to use potions at all times, some like only before battles. Arguing over what gameplay mechanic is superior is tough. I personally find that TW1's durations were too long and they had me covered for countless battles without requiring any additional input. Short durations can be appealing to me since I feel the potion use becomes more tactical. Theoretically.

I don't see how the new system (in particular: using up to three potions directly in combat) makes the gameplay experience any better (different yes, better no) but it obviously sacrifice a good chunk of the believablity/lore/immersion of the world.

Immersion is a very popular word, and a very subjective one. My immersion is not damaged one bit by this system. In contrast, Ciri's powers ruin my immersion significantly more. A person's immersion can be dependent on many different things. This alchemy system doesn't harm mine.

As for how the new system might make the gameplay better (again, I need to experience the implementation myself, and I think this is way too much speculation - that won't affect anything anymore other than our attitude and making us biased before we even open the game - when in a month and a half we can have a more solid discussion) - it maintains TW2's short durations, which I find better than TW1's long ones, while giving you a small degree of control that can allow you to play at a more leisurely pace, without that nagging thought in the back of your mind that your potions are wasting away.

While I think TW2's short durations are better than TW1's long ones, they also made me rush - activating them mid-battle will allow me to enjoy a much more deliberate pace. Which I believe is immensely more important now, being an open world where exploration plays a much more noticeable role.

They were a weapon of last resort in TW2 and many people only used them before hard battles (e.g. Kayran).

Who are these many people? What's the source? This happens often in the thread - participants try to attribute to their side this indefinite number of silent players. I'm not buying it. And "many" is relative. Are 300 people "many"? And if there were another 300 that used potions for easy battles, too?

I don't think they're a weapon of last resort. I'm replaying TW2 recently and occasionally I potion up before I leave Lobinden, just for safety's sake. That's not a last resort use.

I don't see why this is actually a bad thing. I also don't see why alchemy must be "on the same level as swordfighting", as it was said here before. I see that using signs can be quite fun so I agree that making signs more useable and probably powerful in the game can be a good thing in terms of gameplay. I don't see how alchemy in the way it's envisioned for TW3 adds anything to the game that wasn't made better and also more unique before.

My guess is that CDPR want to make the most out of a limited foundation. They want to make an RPG with various leveling-up mechanics - which makes sense once you go for an RPG system. That requires adding much more to alchemy. A matter of gameplay value. Offering three trees is more appealing than two. I think it's a worthy goal.

But as I've said before: a system that is lore-friendly requires a patient and careful player, especially in high difficulty grades. I don't see how that could be wrong. The old system offered more challenge because it was part of the system that you never really knew what you will encounter if you just enter the woods without direction. But usually you have a quest and you also know something about your enemy so it's not THAT hard to prepare properly.

Once again, there isn't any "engagement" here between us. We're playing on different fields. I don't accept the premise that lore must come above all else here, and since I don't think TW1's or TW2's systems were perfect, I have no problem with changing them. Even if TW1 and TW2's systems were more lore friendly.

TW1 wasn't challenging in the preparation aspect - you could potion up the moment you spotted enemies on your screen, a safe distance away. Or even during battle if you disengaged and ran a short distance. As for TW2, its identical system creates pacing problems for TW3 since it's now an open world and you're not just running around Flotsam's forest. Exploration is much more vast and having the player running around frantically to make use of his potions is not good for the purposes of this model.

Unless you make them a matter of last resort, in which case, it's counter-productive to the RPG elements of offering many viable different routes at all times. It severely limits a very important branch of the game.

I agree though that the potion durations in TW2 were extremely short, imo way too short. The same system than in TW2 with longer potion durations (and even more negative effects after the duriation is over) would have been way more promising than the new system in TW3..

A matter of taste. I appreciate the short durations more than the longer ones. I find it makes the use more tactical.

And there could have been even a third way by just giving players the option to choose. You want a "pure" way of playing, with a bigger challenge? Just turn off potions during combat in the menu, let's call it "classic alchemy mode".

As in, TW2's system?