The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[val.mitev]

So I'm sorry but nothing CDPR does here with this alchemy system is really new or "trend setting". It's just the usage of very old system with some slight adjustments. So they're just using old and rarely innovative systems while sacrificing the unique approach of potions in the classic witcher lore (and e.g. their usage in TW2 to some extend)...

It doesn't have to be new or trend settings, it just has to work well from a gameplay perspective and be well balanced against the other game systems.
I think it seems to work very well and provide enough tactical options to keep things interesting and fun. Fingers crossed that it is.

I also don't buy the "lore sacrificing", you find recipes, you gather ingredients, you brew the potions, you drink them.
Also the ability to drink them in combat is the right one in the context of the open world. You get small but powerful effects from them, long enough to be helpful, not too long to allow abuse against powerful enemies.
The limit of 2 potions is also in order to make you choose the right potions for your play style or the situation that you expect getting yourself into, so that you don't have absolutely everything equipped.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

It doesn't have to be new or trend settings, it just has to work well from a gameplay perspective and be well balanced against the other game systems.

Please, read my posts in the context of the ones to which I answer...

I also don't buy the "lore sacrificing", you find recipes, you gather ingredients, you brew the potions, you drink them.

Do you even know the lore? I don't see how finding recipes, gathering ingredients and brewing potions have ANYTHING to do with the lore. In the books Geralt never made anything of that kind. So all of that isn't even related to lore...

Also the ability to drink them in combat is the right one in the context of the open world. You get small but powerful effects from them, long enough to be helpful, not too long to allow abuse against powerful enemies.

"Right one" is purely subjective. The game would work just as well without them. And it would work differently with potions that can't be activated/drunk during combat, but not necessarily worse.

The limit of 2 potions is also in order to make you choose the right potions for your play style or the situation that you expect getting yourself into, so that you don't have absolutely everything equipped.

That element of the potion system worked exactly the same way in TW2. You could only use a very limited amount of potions at the same time. So there isn't something done better here in that regard.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

I never minded the ability to drink potions in combat - a sacrifice or lore-inconsistency one can live with.
The main problem for me was always that you did not have to collect ANY ingredients once you collected them and brewed the potions ONE time.

There are multiple things that are IMO wrong about it and that I do not get. One of them being why there are so many herbs around then? One explanation might be that you have to gather hundreds of herbs for one potion, but that would make the task tedious enough for many to just ignore alchemy again, which the devs do not want.

Again, if basic potions would be auto-refilling and we only needed ingredients for upgraded versions, I would be fine with it.
If we would have to collect LESS ingredients (almost none) after we brewed the potion the first time, fine.
If we would be able to auto-refill, but with reduced efficiency of the potion, also good for me.

But none of this has been stated or indicated as far as I can tell, unless I missed a recent and crucial piece of information.

 

[val.mitev]

Please, read my posts in the context of the ones to which I answer...

I get that you want the game to be true to the lore, you've said it a thousand times.

What I want is the game to be interesting and fun to play, even if that means not being true to the lore to the letter.
I don't want a game that is so true to the sacred lore that is is boring to play and the game systems are a chore to use.
I guess it's just a matter of priorities, you have yours, I have mine, but in the end CDPR decide.

Do you even know the lore? I don't see how finding recipes, gathering ingredients and brewing potions have ANYTHING to do with the lore. In the books Geralt never made anything of that kind. So all of that isn't even related to lore...

If he's not doing it in the books, maybe he shouldn't do it in the games as well, right?

"Right one" is purely subjective. The game would work just as well without them. And it would work differently with potions that can't be activated/drunk during combat, but not necessarily worse.

It is subjective and that is my opinion and I have reasons to believe that it is the right one.
It's been discussed at length many times and from the information available I think it's a good choice.

---------- Updated at 04:08 PM ----------

There are multiple things that are IMO wrong about it and that I do not get. One of them being why there are so many herbs around then? One explanation might be that you have to gather hundreds of herbs for one potion, but that would make the task tedious enough for many to just ignore alchemy again, which the devs do not want.

From what I've seen from the recent videos, you don't need hundreds, but the basic potions required up to 5-7 of a particular ingredient and there were slots for I think 7 ingredients (need to check).

So the common ingredients for the common potions seem to be in abundance, so that the players could easily create the basic potions and start using them as an easy introduction to alchemy.
Then if they find them useful and want to improve them, they'll be able to focus on upgrading them, thus hunting the rare ingredients and gathering more stuff, but even if they don't, they'll still have a nice selection of basic potions to use.

 

[Solid_Altair]

I never minded the ability to drink potions in combat - a sacrifice or lore-inconsistency one can live with.
The main problem for me was always that you did not have to collect ANY ingredients once you collected them and brewed the potions ONE time.

There are multiple things that are IMO wrong about it and that I do not get. One of them being why there are so many herbs around then? One explanation might be that you have to gather hundreds of herbs for one potion, but that would make the task tedious enough for many to just ignore alchemy again, which the devs do not want.

Again, if basic potions would be auto-refilling and we only needed ingredients for upgraded versions, I would be fine with it.
If we would have to collect LESS ingredients (almost none) after we brewed the potion the first time, fine.
If we would be able to auto-refill, but with reduced efficiency of the potion, also good for me.

But none of this has been stated or indicated as far as I can tell, unless I missed a recent and crucial piece of information.

That one. That is what happens. Just because stuff is around you it doesn't mean you have to get it. Specially on a second playthrough players shall be more aware of what they don't need to gather while passing by.

This is the way it goes in Inquisition, which has similar rules.

 

[IsengrimR]

I heard people that played the game say that the new system is there to encourage people to use potions.

People were using potions.

While I do not mind that you can take them mid-fight, I am disappointed by the lack of animations for it. It would work as a balancing mechanic. If you need to take a potion, you're taking a risk. Like in Witcher 1, or newer games, notable examples would be Dark Souls 1/2.

Coming back to the self-refilling potions, it's an idea that will make the game considerably less hard. You do not need to watch your supply of potions anymore, you just get them refilled every time you meditate.
While it's friendly to newcomers, I can't really see the point of it. Unless it's going to be "we want to appeal to a wider audience", which I heard before in my life, and doesn't mean anything good.

For me potions were an enriching element, especially in Witcher 1.You pretty much had to have a good supply of them if you wanted to use them, and you had to supply yourself with different ones for different threats. It was a nice, not overly complex, but not mind-dumbingly stupid system, which worked well.

I do not agree with what was done, and I'll be looking to replace it with a mod. And if there won't be one, then I'll be damned I'll try making one, once everything settles down, and I won't have to work my arse off engaged in this nasty thing called life and work and all this trash.

 

[thislsmadness]

I heard people that played the game say that the new system is there to encourage people to use potions.

People were using potions.

While I do not mind that you can take them mid-fight, I am disappointed by the lack of animations for it. It would work as a balancing mechanic. If you need to take a potion, you're taking a risk. Like in Witcher 1, or newer games, notable examples would be Dark Souls 1/2.

Coming back to the self-refilling potions, it's an idea that will make the game considerably less hard. You do not need to watch your supply of potions anymore, you just get them refilled every time you meditate.
While it's friendly to newcomers, I can't really see the point of it. Unless it's going to be "we want to appeal to a wider audience", which I heard before in my life, and doesn't mean anything good.

For me potions were an enriching element, especially in Witcher 1.You pretty much had to have a good supply of them if you wanted to use them, and you had to supply yourself with different ones for different threats. It was a nice, not overly complex, but not mind-dumbingly stupid system, which worked well.

I do not agree with what was done, and I'll be looking to replace it with a mod. And if there won't be one, then I'll be damned I'll try making one, once everything settles down, and I won't have to work my arse off engaged in this nasty thing called life and work and all this trash.

It doesnt need that as a balancing mechanic, there are already limitations in place for that. In the Souls games you can have 20 estus and gulp them down as much as you please. You also have traditional consumables that heal you. The only balancing mechanic in place is the animation lock when taking them, otherwise your character is invincible. In the Witcher 3 you have a much tighter supply, you can only equip two potions at a time, and you have to manage toxicity levels.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I get that you want the game to be true to the lore, you've said it a thousand times.

What I want is the game to be interesting and fun to play, even if that means not being true to the lore to the letter.
I don't want a game that is so true to the sacred lore that is is boring to play and the game systems are a chore to use.
I guess it's just a matter of priorities, you have yours, I have mine, but in the end CDPR decide.

No, you don't really got it yet. I want the game to stay true to the lore as much as possible AND I want it to be fun. And I do think that both can work hand in hand. They aren't mutually exclusive things. So please stop with these accusations that I ONLY cared about LORE above everything else. That's not true. I value good gameplay as well and it's a no1 priority for me.

 

[Ljesnjanin]

- There is second type of potions called Decoction. They are created from mutagens, and cannot be refilled. They last very long (1800 seconds) and have game changing buffs.

http://www.reddit.com/r/witcher/related/34eq2f/notes_from_rmaciaszek_video_spoiler_free_skill/

Don't remember decoctions were mentioned before...

 

[moonknightgog]

That one. That is what happens. Just because stuff is around you it doesn't mean you have to get it. Specially on a second playthrough players shall be more aware of what they don't need to gather while passing by.

This is the way it goes in Inquisition, which has similar rules.

Shitty rules, IMHO.

 

[Klavi]

Don't remember decoctions were mentioned before...

Indeed. I wonder if these mutagens are just really, really rare ingredients (like, only the toughest monsters in the area drop them, but they are still not extremely limited) or same as W1, where you only get them from certain bosses during the story.
Either way, I can already see myself not using them at all. Gotta keep that shit for the harder fights, right? :huh:

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Shitty rules, IMHO.

It's also not true. You need a TON of different ingredients for crafting in DAI which is essential in this game if you want to maximize your build. That applies to the second playthrough as much as it applies to the first. Indeed a shitty design.

 

[Ljesnjanin]

Indeed. I wonder if these mutagens are just really, really rare ingredients (like, only the toughest monsters in the area drop them, but they are still not extremely limited) or same as W1, where you only get them from certain bosses during the story.

In one of the recent videos I saw that Wyvern dropped mutagen, iirc...

View attachment 13245

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Either way, I can already see myself not using them at all. Gotta keep that shit for the harder fights, right? :huh:

Which makes these "super potions" pretty weird because that behaviour was the initial reason for CDPR to change the whole alchemy system...

 

[thislsmadness]

Seems like its there to give you something to do with mutagens you have no use for.

 

[moonknightgog]

It's also not true. You need a TON of different ingredients for crafting in DAI which is essential in this game if you want to maximize your build. That applies to the second playthrough as much as it applies to the first. Indeed a shitty design.

Exactly. This means, as was for Inquisition, that you need to do a lot of grinding, while in the previous The Witcher games to make a potions, you needed only very few herbs. And then, when you make the first potion, you can even forget about alchemy. You don't need to use it anymore.

And the potions in combat, with a very short duration, is the worst part. I use one, 30 seconds. I use the second for another 30s, and then I'm fucked, I don't have potions anymore, so I have to fucking around to get the alchool.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Seems like its there to give you something to do with mutagens you have no use for.

Doesn't change the fact that they use it for a mechanic that they wanted to avoid in the first place...

 

[thislsmadness]

Doesn't change the fact that they use it for a mechanic that they wanted to avoid in the first place...

Just because one area is designed that way doesnt mean that it should apply to all aspects of the game. They want people using basic potions more commonly. I assume rare and powerful potions are suppose to be used... rarely. Different intent, different design.

 

[DukeAlmighty]

I like the idea about Decoctions, I feel that CDPR wanted to appeal both sides - people who dislike auto-refill and drinking in combat vs people who likes.

Only question I have right know is can we take Decoctions in combat ?

 

[web-head91]

Exactly. This means, as was for Inquisition, that you need to do a lot of grinding, while in the previous The Witcher games to make a potions, you needed only very few herbs. And then, when you make the first potion, you can even forget about alchemy. You don't need to use it anymore.

And the potions in combat, with a very short duration, is the worst part. I use one, 30 seconds. I use the second for another 30s, and then I'm fucked, I don't have potions anymore, so I have to fucking around to get the alchool.

and that is why i beleive DA:I alchemy system is flawed: it's grindy, it's boring, it's shallow and un-engaging (almost like the entire game itself).

As for TW3, to be honest, i can see what CDPR is trying to acheive, and i understand they want it to be more attractive to new commers and old players who don't use it, but i feel like they were trying too hard.
a mix of TW1 and TW2 alchemy system would've been perfect in my humble opinion. in short: don't fix it if it ain't broken.
you want to make alchemy system more attractive ? then add potions with permanent that need rare ingredients that are not only hard to find, but also hard to get. Like, for example, a potion with a dragon blood and other stuff makes you more resistant to fire magic based attacks by -10%. (idk i'm kinda inventing stuff).
that would've been more than enough.
to make you understand my point more, i'll try to use a game with this concept in it, which is gothic 2 (aka one of best RPGs i've played)
if you want to get stronger fast, you could learn alchemy, collect two herbs (dragon root and king sorrel) that are somewhat rare ( i think their number is 10 each) dispersed all around the corners of the world. not only did this encourage me to learn alchemy to make all sorts of useful potions (which was already very fun to do), but also to explore the land thoroughly.

From what we've heard, it seems they're trying to do that with the alchemy system, which is a good thing and would've been more than enough to make alchemy more appealing.

now that i'm done with that point, i'd like to talk more about the argument that "collecting ingredients can get tedious
and that the devs want us to forget about all that boring farming for herbs". well for starters, ingredients themselves are everywhere in the world in large quantities (at least for common ones). it wouldn't exactly kill you to collect a few herbs every now and then to get your potion, and becomes almost like a ritual in some way. Besides, considering that they're trying to make you upgrade your potions over time by collecting herbs, which could be possible since the potions have a much shorter duration than the previous games, in order to make the duration longer (maybe) and overall more effective.
despite how interresting the concept may seem, it might become tedious and boring in the long run and ultimately divise people. on one hand, there are those who don't mind doing grindy stuff (like the people who enjoyed DA:I, which had a similar alchemy mechanics), and those like me, which would kinda be fed up by it feeling it being an unnecessary change to the previous alchemy system and somewhat annoying.

in the end, the game is finished, and we can do nothing but wait for its inevitable release, and see for ourselves how the alchemy system will be, which despite how promessing it is, may have many problems in my opinion. and if that's the case, i may simply mod the game ^^

there, that was my analysis of the whole alchemy system with the data we have so far. thanks for reading my post.