The problem is not that they are rare itself. The problem of being rare is that people tend to not use them at all.
And sorry: we don't talk about a different aspect of the game. We still talk about the very same aspect, namely potions.
And sorry: we don't talk about a different aspect of the game. We still talk about the very same aspect, namely potions.
Gopher talks about mutagens in his second video. You have 4 (I think) different coulours for each skill tree.
Oh, and that REDpoint was accidental btw but I'm sure you deserve it for some reason.
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Except that there is a very clear distinction between normal potions and Mutagenic potions, they are even named differently. The design intent behind regular potions is that you are using them commonly. That is not the case with these Mutagenic potions. Its exactly how the game has both a general pool of items that scale as well as legendary/unique items that will not. That type of duality seems to exist all over the game and you cant just ignore context and intent behind a particular mechanic.
A mix of TW1 and TW2 is exactly what they did. You have both the active usage and toxicity management from TW1 combined with the need for preparation that was in TW2 since you must choose beforehand which potions and mutagens to "equip". The major change is "resource management", which was a largely superficial element of the previous games because the herbs were never hard to come by.
Oh, those are going to be the same things? I didn't really link the two, but it makes sense. And in this case, I think it's safe to say that these Decoctions won't be insanely rare and you'll be able to use them occasionally, instead of just safekeeping them for "another day".
I like it.
Ouch. I'm sure I'll earn it one day.
Just changed my post, It works slightly differently to how I remembered, but it's still the same principle
I agree with everything.and that is why i beleive DA:I alchemy system is flawed: it's grindy, it's boring, it's shallow and un-engaging (almost like the entire game itself).
As for TW3, to be honest, i can see what CDPR is trying to acheive, and i understand they want it to be more attractive to new commers and old players who don't use it, but i feel like they were trying too hard.
a mix of TW1 and TW2 alchemy system would've been perfect in my humble opinion. in short: don't fix it if it ain't broken.
you want to make alchemy system more attractive ? then add potions with permanent that need rare ingredients that are not only hard to find, but also hard to get. Like, for example, a potion with a dragon blood and other stuff makes you more resistant to fire magic based attacks by -10%. (idk i'm kinda inventing stuff).
that would've been more than enough.
to make you understand my point more, i'll try to use a game with this concept in it, which is gothic 2 (aka one of best RPGs i've played)
if you want to get stronger fast, you could learn alchemy, collect two herbs (dragon root and king sorrel) that are somewhat rare ( i think their number is 10 each) dispersed all around the corners of the world. not only did this encourage me to learn alchemy to make all sorts of useful potions (which was already very fun to do), but also to explore the land thoroughly.
From what we've heard, it seems they're trying to do that with the alchemy system, which is a good thing and would've been more than enough to make alchemy more appealing.
now that i'm done with that point, i'd like to talk more about the argument that "collecting ingredients can get tedious
and that the devs want us to forget about all that boring farming for herbs". well for starters, ingredients themselves are everywhere in the world in large quantities (at least for common ones). it wouldn't exactly kill you to collect a few herbs every now and then to get your potion, and becomes almost like a ritual in some way. Besides, considering that they're trying to make you upgrade your potions over time by collecting herbs, which could be possible since the potions have a much shorter duration than the previous games, in order to make the duration longer (maybe) and overall more effective.
despite how interresting the concept may seem, it might become tedious and boring in the long run and ultimately divise people. on one hand, there are those who don't mind doing grindy stuff (like the people who enjoyed DA:I, which had a similar alchemy mechanics), and those like me, which would kinda be fed up by it feeling it being an unnecessary change to the previous alchemy system and somewhat annoying.
in the end, the game is finished, and we can do nothing but wait for its inevitable release, and see for ourselves how the alchemy system will be, which despite how promessing it is, may have many problems in my opinion. and if that's the case, i may simply mod the game ^^
there, that was my analysis of the whole alchemy system with the data we have so far. thanks for reading my post.
We have to wait the release? Yes. But I have this strong feeling that they really fucked up with the alchemy system, and there's nothing I read so far that I like.
Mostly because there wasn't any reason to change the previous system.
well not exactly. you see, now they added the auto-refill feature, and by it, once you've made a potion you no longer need to do it once again.
however, you can improove it over time, which explains the short duration of the potions effect observed in certain gameplay footage. allow me to clarify myself more, if you will.
let's say you make a swallow potion with 1 herb and 1 drowner brain (please forgive me if i'm mistaken, it's just for the sake of explaining), giving you a regen health with a +2 HP per sec. for 30 s.
next time, if you collect more, 3 herbs and 3 drowners brains, you get a regen health of +3 HP per sec, for 1 min.
and the potion will keep on auto-refilling whenever you meditate or have alcohol bases with you. let's not forget the whole "metabolism" mechanism.
so in the end, no, the alchemy system have changed quite much from TW1 and TW2. (and there was already resource managmenet in TW1).
i hope i was clear enough this time around
No, they don't.
Auto-refilling like Inquisition really sucks, because there's nothing that force you to use the alchemy system after the first potion.
And the potion duration is too short. 30 seconds? Really?
Also you can make alcohols needed using ingredients... so while brewing the potion (dropping some powdered leaves into the alcohol is automagic) you can still indulge your pokemon skills and use the collected flowers to make your alcohol bases. (Or just go and buy it from an inn if you hate alchemy...)
Wut? What is this...thing, now?
Why is there the possibility to make your alcohol and not your potions ? It has no sense.
I'm done, I will wait a mod to fix this mess.
You obviously don't understand why CDPR wanted to change the potion system we know from TW2 in the first place. They changed it because they didn't want people to hold on to their stuff without ever using it. That's exactly how the mutagenic potions system work now. They are rare and can't be refilled so probably people won't ever use them. So why inventing this system here if they were apparently not satisfied with it in the first place?
It makes little sense to change a system for a specific reason while you implement a similar mechanic which is based on the very same reason.
It seems to me that you kind of ignore context and intent here.
Perhaps they wanted to please both sides. CDPR didn't like that players were hoarding the potions, but not all players were hoarding them OR they are not all happy with the change (evident by this thread, you know).
Personally, I wouldn't mind if CDPR just went back to W1 alchemy. But, knowing about these decoctions, I see nothing terribly wrong with this approach. And, like I said earlier, the mutagens probably won't be exceedingly rare, if most unique monsters drop them. Hell, it might even encourage exploration - and that would certainly be a welcome change.
In the end, only time will tell if the new alchemy system will hold up. But I'm glad that CDPR are at least trying something different.
As I said, the resource management (collecting/brewing) has deviated from the previous games. However, the way you actually use potions definitely borrows elements from the previous games. They are not identical but there is direct inspirations there.well not exactly. you see, now they added the auto-refill feature, and by it, once you've made a potion you no longer need to do it once again.
however, you can improove it over time, which explains the short duration of the potions effect observed in certain gameplay footage. allow me to clarify myself more, if you will.
let's say you make a swallow potion with 1 herb and 1 drowner brain (please forgive me if i'm mistaken, it's just for the sake of explaining), giving you a regen health with a +2 HP per sec. for 30 s.
next time, if you collect more, 3 herbs and 3 drowners brains, you get a regen health of +3 HP per sec, for 1 min.
and the potion will keep on auto-refilling whenever you meditate or have alcohol bases with you. let's not forget the whole "metabolism" mechanism.
so in the end, no, the alchemy system have changed quite much from TW1 and TW2. (and there was already resource managmenet in TW1).
i hope i was clear enough this time around
I think I have a pretty good understanding as to why they changed normal potions. The issue here is that you don't seem to understand that Mutagenic potions and regular potions are two different things. They changed the way normal potions work because they want people to use normal potions more often... this is how the game is balanced. Mutagenic potions are not normal potions and there is absolutely no reason that they have to apply the same design philosophy to them. Again, its exactly like the loot situation. Presumably, these are rare and very powerful, so they are likely something you are intended to hold on to and use only when you really need it.
You don't seem to understand that they changed the normal potions FOR A REASON. And the reason was not balancing because balancing comes after systems. The game could be reasonably balanced either way. Indeed, they wanted people to use potions more often - but why? What was the reason for that? And why doesn't it apply to mutagenic potions as well? That just makes no sense to me.
And I don't see that this is exactly like the loot situation...
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I don't have any problems with the decoctions, I have a problem with the "normal" potions. And I fail to see how the system pleases "both" sides. Even with decoctations I still have to bear how the normal potions work...
And I want the TW2 potion system back (with adjustments)...
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quote by Damien Monnier on Alchemy
I honestly couldn't disagree more. Being not able to being "fully prepared" all the time leads to tension and makes surprising encounters even more exciting. If you want to avoid them. Just be more careful. Being able to use potions all the time just leads to a rushed approach with less tension and less atmospheric exploration. The old system wasn't frustrating but the new system is much more boring and casualized...
I respectfully disagree, I think CDPR are on the right path here. It's not casualized just because it tends to respect player time, so that they can focus on more interesting stuff to do.
In TW2, the preparation before combat and drinking the potions worked, because the scale of the world was much smaller which is a very important consideration.
As Damien also explained, imagine that potions work like in W2, you drink them before a combat that you see coming and the potions last for say 10-15 minutes.
You fight your fight and move on, but after that there are no fights for some reason and your potions expire, it turns out that you wasted 2-3 potions for a single fight that may or may have not needed them.
Now you need to recreate them again and depending on how often you sue them you could easily run out of them and now you'll also need to constantly stockpile on ingredients and potions, which could lead to grinding, which is not fun and requires no skill, it's just annoying. Because of that drinking potions during combat is the better way in the given context.
Also to keep the tension, some potions will be effective against some enemies, so you could end up in a situation where you have some potions equipped, but they do little to help you against some enemies that you chanced upon.
And I can say that..., honestly speaking, I'm not ok with it. There's nothing wrong to being hardcore, expecially in the hard/dark difficulties.
And this "no drinking animation" really breaks my immersion a lot.
At least, instead of equip them, let drink in meditation, and then turn on the effects in combat.
Geralt is a mutant so he should be able to control the exact moment they digest... Haven't read books so don't know if that idea fits into lore or not but just sounds odd, though it'd have basically the same effect.
I agree the reason for no anim is light, couldn't they just make a very fast anim, not a super slow one like previous games...
They changed normal potions for a reason. That has nothing to do with Mutagenic potions, they are a separate thing. Why doesnt it apply to mutagenic potions? Because of game balance. They decided that mutagenic potions would be rare and powerful and they don't have to apply the same "autofill" design to something that they dont intend for you to be using often. Normal potions: intended to be used often, autorefill makes sense. Mutagenic potions: not used often, autorefill is unnecessary.
And yes, it is exactly like the loot situation where they decided to scale some loot because "it sucks finding a bunch of weapons you cannot use". Why don't they apply that to legendary/unique items as well? Because unique items are distinguished from normal loot and they dont have to abide by the same game rules. Not all loot is created equal, nor potions.
As Damien mentioned, the difficulty will come from the enemies dealing more damage, thus the accent on the player skill and being able to avoid getting hit. Depending on the damage increase and enemy AI, it could turn out to be hard enough. Also the part with getting less experience on higher difficulties also could affect things.
Having a drinking animation is something that could affect the difficulty, like in the first Witcher, by making you stand still and get pummeled, but it's about balance in the end. Having sufficient difficulty, being fun to play and not being too annoying.
There are other and better ways to "respect player time" imho. Not even to mention that it's highly subjective to define what valuable player time or occuptions are...
And by the way, in the RPG world casualization and "saving player time" often mean very similar things.
In TW2, the preparation before combat and drinking the potions worked, because the scale of the world was much smaller which is a very important consideration.[/Quote]
Debatable. What do you mean with "worked"? Obviously it worked pretty differently for different people. While I barely used it all the time, Eliharel used it almost all the time. So even in TW2 people used the system in very different ways that cannot just be explained by a smaller world.
10-15 minutes? Potions shouldn't last much longer than perhaps 3-5 minutes imo (the exact timing should of course be based on the duration of a usual hard encounter in the game, e.g. against a boss enemy). And if they last longer they should come with severe negativ impacts on your health due to toxicity. My reasoning behind that is that you should use potions LESS not MORE. They should only be there for the really hard and "planned" encounters, not for the busywork fighting against wolves or bandits Geralt does on the fly. Pretty much like what they've planned for the decoctions (the super potions made with mutagens) but wthout the normal "generic fantasy" potions. Imo that would be a much more exciting and appealing system, taking away even less time as you stated above.
You mix different systems up here. How potions are used and how they are created are actually two different things.
But one aspect of a better system imo would be that all potions would indeed be rare and you should think about when to use them best. I actually think what CDPR wanted to avoid is the way it should be made...
Well, one of the risks of a professional...
But that only happens with (too) long duration times (as tackled above). And it depends on the specific implementation. You seem to know more about my preference and systems in mind that I've actually ever shared so far...
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