The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[macpeteo]

"Um, what? How do you think a potion would be made, by eating two different flowers? The meditation aspect is to imply Geralt crushing the ingredients, mixing them, adding water or alcohol and similar stuff."

Its DUMB! When you meditate, you are NOT mobile, you are sitting down with your legs crossed, relaxed, so how the HELL do you move around crushing ingredients and putting the contents into viles and using all those Alchemy tools needed to produce a potion!!? Why do we need to "imply"???! Just have him do it, show him using the Alchemy tools and ingredients, would that be so bad, and if your in the middle of the forest and you don't have the ingredients or tools, than you cant make any potions!

 

[EliHarel]

@EmperorZorn , it's an elegant solution that was already shown for its flaws, flaws that CDPR is trying to address. These flaws are the very reason that CDPR came up with the "frozen" effects.

It does not keep the mechanic the same. Yes, you would not be able to replace potions *during* a fight, but if you're in the middle of exploring a creature's lair and you suddenly realise it's not what you expected it to be, it would be easy enough to just swap potions around without losing any. If you're forced to drink them prior to entering (like the mechanic is currently planned by the devs), the only way to replace a certain potion would be to meditate, use up the potions already in your system and drink new ones, thus being punished for misinterpreting information.

Another thing, this way you're allowed to selectively drink potions. It gives you more room for error (e.g. you discover the creature you're after is different than what you expected and less dangerous, so you only consume a Swallow potion rather than Swallow + more specialised potions), which lessens the idea of being rewarded for proper preparation further. So, while you might be convinced, I am not.

No offense aimed at anyone, but we're kind of continually ignoring the points raised by the "other" side, making for a rather static discussion.
Potion-belt still doesn't explain why Geralt can't just... switch the potions while traveling. This would severely lessen the planning aspect since you can just slap on different potions, without spending them. It's something CDPR is trying to change, something the potion-belt doesn't fix. Not in this form, at least.

We potion-belt is a solution for a different mechanic, not a nicer solution for the same mechanic.

Its DUMB! When you meditate, you are NOT mobile, you are sitting down with your legs crossed, relaxed, so how the HELL do you move around crushing ingredients and putting the contents into viles and using all those Alchemy tools needed to produce a potion!!?

Well, if you bring the ingredients with you...

Why do we need to "imply"???! Just have him do it, show him using the Alchemy tools and ingredients, would that be so bad, and if your in the middle of the forest and you don't have the ingredients or tools, than you cant make any potions!

I don't mean to be rude, peteo, but I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't think the process of creating the potions is something that someone here is protesting against. I think you're misreading into the "meditation" title - it doesn't mean that Geralt is in lotus position, 'Ohm'ing to himself and summoning a potion from thin air. It was always about him brewing them in place, once he gathered the ingredients.

I don't think that anyone here disagrees that if you don't have the ingredients, you can't make any potions.

 

[Zhyphix]

"Um, what? How do you think a potion would be made, by eating two different flowers? The meditation aspect is to imply Geralt crushing the ingredients, mixing them, adding water or alcohol and similar stuff."

Its DUMB! When you meditate, you are NOT mobile, you are sitting down with your legs crossed, relaxed, so how the HELL do you move around crushing ingredients and putting the contents into viles and using all those Alchemy tools needed to produce a potion!!? Why do we need to "imply"???! Just have him do it, show him using the Alchemy tools and ingredients, would that be so bad, and if your in the middle of the forest and you don't have the ingredients or tools, than you cant make any potions!

Forgive me, but now I really don't understand what your point is. That Geralt should only be able to make potions in towns (unless you're carrying some portable tools) and then drink them whenever he wants? Like in Skyrim? Or that it should simply show the animation of Geralt brewing a potion?

Because the alchemy screen during mediation does just what I said, it implies Geralt's process to make a potion, whatever it is. Just like you can't see him physically taking off and on his armor whenever you change one and so on. It would be unnecessary and perhaps even annoying, in my opinion.

If neither is the case, please explain.

No offense aimed at anyone, but we're kind of continually ignoring the points raised by the "other" side, making for a rather static discussion.
Potion-belt still doesn't explain why Geralt can't just... switch the potions while traveling. This would severely lessen the planning aspect since you can just slap on different potions, without spending them. It's something CDPR is trying to change, something the potion-belt doesn't fix. Not in this form, at least.

We potion-belt is a solution for a different mechanic, not a nicer solution for the same mechanic.

It was already proposed that potions could go bad after the same time it would take for the inactivated potions' effects to expire. Seeing how potions are likely watered down to be drinkable, it actually could also make sense. Maybe. Probably. And different potions could have different timers, as well as using higher-quality alcohol instead of cheaper stuff.

 

[macpeteo]

This has nothing to do with Skyrim nor "meditation" (how he creates the potions), the whole topic is the delayed activation or on demand activation.

There, I'm done, thank you all

 

[ReptilePZ]

The core of the issue and why the mechanic is hard to replace is that it's very unique.

If you go with a drink during combat a la Witcher 1 approach, the short timer stops being an issue (they're clearly trying to avoid longer timers so that a potion can be situation-specific, not generic), since you can drink right before a fight. However, at the same time the player is no longer being punished for being unprepared and is allowed to do a last-minute decision/easy correction, even with potions going bad. Not to mention that keeping track of how many herbs instead of potions you have is an unnecessary complication. If you decide to make it very punishing to drink a potion during combat to avoid that, then the timer becomes a problem again, since you have effectively recreated TW2's system. It's a vicious circle that seems to only break once you introduce the hold effect mechanic.

 

[EliHarel]

It was already proposed that potions could go bad after the same time it would take for the inactivated potions' effects to expire. Seeing how potions are likely watered down to be drinkable, it actually could also make sense. Maybe. Probably. And different potions could have different timers, as well as using higher-quality alcohol instead of cheaper stuff.

I missed that, then. It's a good idea.

It still allows you to swap potions, though, even if there is an expiration date. Say potion A's life rate is 10 hours (or minutes, or whatever, it doesn't matter specifically right now). After 3, you can change to a different potion, carry it around for 4 hours as an emergency option, and then go back to potion A for its remaining 3 hours if there's need. The difference between this and the controlled-metabolism is that it doesn't directly "waste" the potion and allows more flexibility and ease.

With controlled-metabolism you're more committed to the potions, since you're not as free to switch between them. Once you "meditate" to swap them, they're gone for good.
With potion-belt, once you "meditate" to switch potions, they're still accessible for the remainder of their life expectancy, if you re-meditate.

Though honestly, it's a minor difference that isn't really a "deal-breaker" for me. It's not a crucial issue, but still one worth addressing. I think this could be a pretty simple and believable solution: making the life expectancy of (most) potions equal to the time required for Geralt to brew. As a rough example:

• Most potions are good-for-use for just an hour. After that hour, they're as bad as old milk, and Geralt won't use them. (barring the elite potions)
• When you sit down to brew new potions, the process would take an hour for Geralt.
• By the time you have your new potions, the old ones are already bad.
• This means you can never be in a situation where you have a reservoir of potions in Roach's bag for you to choose between.
• But there should be found a life-expectancy that isn't too short as to make you rush through your travels. If an IG hour passes in 5 RL minutes, it's kind of pointless. If an IG hour passes like a RL hour, it may be a bit tedious.
• Making the brewing an 8-IG-hour long process is stretching it a bit.
• Some middle path shouldn't be too tough too calculate, I think. The principle seems fine, though.

The other main difference with potion-belt is that it still allows you to be selective in what potions you use. In the controlled-metabolism case, once you release the effects you release A, B and C together, while the potion-belt allows you to choose between A, or B, or C, or all together. Supposedly, restricting you much less and thus making the game easier.
Metabolism makes for a much more "all-in" gameplay. You ran into a tough battle? You either choose them all, or not at all. The reason why this is interesting is because you need to consider whether you may run into another difficult battle later on. With the potion-belt, it's more forgiving - let's use A now, later I'll still have B and C.
(All of this is under the premise that we're after the challenging system, not the forgiving one)
One solution for this, in favor of the potion-belt, is this: rather than having three potion slots, you have just one. One potion, that is a combination of different effects. When brewing a potion, you don't choose whether to brew a Swallow, and a Cat, and a Dog. You choose what effects to add to that single potion, meaning you can have a potion that is a mixture of swallow-cat-dog, or one that is spit-mouse-wolf, and so on.

Though it's kind of a crude solution. Not a very convincing one. If someone has a finer solution, feel free.

(Btw, I realize that our chances of actually affecting the game in this stage of its development, are slim-to-none. It's just for the sake of discussion)

 

[ReptilePZ]

One solution for this, in favor of the potion-belt, is this: rather than having three potion slots, you have just one. One potion, that is a combination of different effects. When brewing a potion, you don't choose whether to brew a Swallow, and a Cat, and a Dog. You choose what effects to add to that single potion, meaning you can have a potion that is a mixture of swallow-cat-dog, or one that is spit-mouse-wolf, and so on.

Though it's kind of a crude solution. Not a very convincing one. If someone has a finer solution, feel free.

That's probably as close as you can get to a replacement. The main problem with it being that it would result in very messy inventory management. So at that point it becomes a question of good design vs. lore consistency. Even then, drinking potions during combat is still not consistent with the lore, so the system CDPR plan on using wins in my book, as you're fixing one aspect of lore by breaking another and you're introducing cumbersome design. I have a feeling that had they just explained what the mechanic does, without trying to give a reason why the main character can do it, things would have been a lot smoother.

 

[Mgec]

I don't really like this new system. I doesn't require preparation at all. Everyone would just leave a Swallow there stored without even thinking about a possible fight ahead.

 

[ReptilePZ]

And then, when they don't get into a fight, the swallow will eventually wear off, whether they use it or not, thus wasting the potion.

 

[Aaden]

Not to mention that keeping track of how many herbs instead of potions you have is an unnecessary complication.

How much of an issue is that? I never prepared (many) potions in advance because different potions share the same ingredients - wouldn't want to have wasted all my ingredients on one type and then need another.

I missed that, then. It's a good idea.

It still allows you to swap potions, though, even if there is an expiration date. Say potion A's life rate is 10 hours (or minutes, or whatever, it doesn't matter specifically right now). After 3, you can change to a different potion, carry it around for 4 hours as an emergency option, and then go back to potion A for its remaining 3 hours if there's need. The difference between this and the controlled-metabolism is that it doesn't directly "waste" the potion and allows more flexibility and ease.

With controlled-metabolism you're more committed to the potions, since you're not as free to switch between them. Once you "meditate" to swap them, they're gone for good.
With potion-belt, once you "meditate" to switch potions, they're still accessible for the remainder of their life expectancy, if you re-meditate.

How about not having more flasks than fit into your potion belt? Or in other words: you don't create potions and they go into your inventory, but potions you create go straight to the slots.
But then again, it's another stretch of logic and lore. Preparing potions somewhere in the wilderness and per fight seems silly, and we already know that Geralt has that straw-stuffed pouch/box.

On second thought, what's the downside of allowing to switch the potions only during meditation? It's not like you can just stumble into a lair unprepared and meditate with the monster right around the corner - at least you shouldn't be able to. So, the required preparation is the same. And the lower commitment isn't really an issue - all the advantage you have is that you can use the potions another time if you didn't need them, not such a biggie.

 

[ReptilePZ]

How much of an issue is that? I never prepared (many) potions in advance because different potions share the same ingredients - wouldn't want to have wasted all my ingredients on one type and then need another.

The problem is that there's no easy way to check if you have a potion. Every time you want to make sure, you must go through the process of checking that you have enough ingredients rather than enough potions, which can get very tedious. It gets even worse when you take into account that, as you said, potions can use the same ingredient - then you have to also remember if the potions you're looking for share resources.

This is the very reason why I always have at least 1 of each more specialised potions/oils in my inventory. I want to be certain I have access to at least one, should I need it.

 

[Eldanon]

The change sounds rather silly to me... stop giving in to all the whining, CDPR. I must say I much preferred the original TW2 before it was made far too easy through all the patches. Even dark mode is pretty much a joke challenge-wise now =(.

 

[frynse]

I don't really like this new system. I doesn't require preparation at all. Everyone would just leave a Swallow there stored without even thinking about a possible fight ahead.

I agree. Most of the time in tw2 you should be able to figure out when you were about to go into a fight, as long as you used your brain.
This system is obviously aimed towards those who thought it was "unfair" in tw2 or whatever, that you couldn't drink potions mid fight. Not a big fan of this, but I guess it's not a huge deal although I wish they would've handled it differently.

 

[ReptilePZ]

This system is obviously aimed towards those who thought it was "unfair" in tw2 or whatever, that you couldn't drink potions mid fight. Not a big fan of this, but I guess it's not a huge deal although I wish they would've handled it differently.

I don't understand why people keep getting that idea. No, it is not aimed at that, it is actually aimed at solving the issue with situations where there's a long period of time between a big fight and the last chance you get to consume a potion, rendering them useless in such situation, e.g. Letho fight after long conversation at the end of the game, Draug fight at the end of chapter 2 etc.

 

[frynse]

I don't understand why people keep getting that idea. No, it is not aimed at that, it is actually aimed at solving the issue with situations where there's a long period of time between a big fight and the last chance you get to consume a potion, rendering them useless in such situation, e.g. Letho fight after long conversation at the end of the game, Draug fight at the end of chapter 2 etc.

Sure, that might be part of it, but it seems like a secondary function to me. As have been stated before, I'm afraid controlling your metabolism like this will encourage cheesing so that you can reap the benefits of the potions for too long and won't have to worry about being caught off guard.
Anyway, I really don't think it was such a big deal that you sometimes might waste a couple of minutes' worth of potion. To me, it just encouraged being smart about when to use it.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Sure, that might be part of it, but it seems like a secondary function to me. As have been stated before, I'm afraid controlling your metabolism like this will encourage cheesing so that you can reap the benefits of the potions for too long and won't have to worry about being caught off guard.
Anyway, I really don't think it was such a big deal that you sometimes might waste a couple of minutes' worth of potion. To me, it just encouraged being smart about when to use it.

It was actually huge deal as it made potions useless - it wasn't about being smart when to drink them, there was literally no way for them to be of any use in those situations. And I believe this is the sole reason for the change.

As long as they put some longer timer that makes the potion wear off if you don't activate it for some time, I don't think there'll be any cheesing.

 

[frynse]

It was actually huge deal as it made potions useless - it wasn't about being smart when to drink them, there was literally no way for them to be of any use in those situations. And I believe this is the sole reason for the change.

As long as they put some longer timer that makes the potion wear off if you don't activate it for some time, I don't think there'll be any cheesing.

It's true that there were a few situations where you didn't have a chance to use your potions properly, but I don't think that's what caused them to make this change as they could've just changed the quest design so you didn't end up in those situations to begin with. Not like it happened often though.
I see your point, but I guess what bothers me the most is just the idea of "activating" your metabolism. Just seems strange and not very logical.

 

[ReptilePZ]

It's true that there were a few situations where you didn't have a chance to use your potions properly, but I don't think that's what caused them to make this change as they could've just changed the quest design so you didn't end up in those situations to begin with. Not like it happened often though.
I see your point, but I guess what bothers me the most is just the idea of "activating" your metabolism. Just seems strange and not very logical.

I'd rather have solid quest design that isn't restricted by how long your timer can be. As I've said before, they probably shouldn't have usd metabolsim as an explanation. Shouldn't have explained it at all, it just draws more attention to it.

 

[EliHarel]

It's true that there were a few situations where you didn't have a chance to use your potions properly, but I don't think that's what caused them to make this change as they could've just changed the quest design so you didn't end up in those situations to begin with.

frynse I think it would be a very bad idea were they to design their quests when one of their main considerations would be "is a potion accessible?". The quests, the stories, they need to be very flowing and natural. With this system, it allows CDPR to make them so. As Reptile says - now there's no danger of rendering the potions moot by long cutscenes or conversations, leaving CDPR with the freedom to design the narrative how they think best.

 

[Zhyphix]

I'd rather have solid quest design that isn't restricted by how long your timer can be. As I've said before, they probably shouldn't have usd metabolsim as an explanation. Shouldn't have explained it at all, it just draws more attention to it.

Well, after all, the idea that the effects of the potions consumed really kick in when Geralt is in stress, which translated to gameplay means when the player deems a fight difficult, is not such a bad one. I like it, actually. I might get over it.

...That is, If CDPR doesn't come out and declares that Geralt can control his metabolism at will. Did they, um, already say so?