The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

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The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

  • Yes

    Votes: 250 24.3%
  • No

    Votes: 270 26.2%
  • I need to see it in action to be sure

    Votes: 294 28.6%
  • I prefer the system of TW1

    Votes: 363 35.3%
  • I prefer the system of TW2

    Votes: 104 10.1%

  • Total voters
    1,029
EXACTLY.
I mean why should I even ride around in that world if there are just some side quests here and there and nothing more? Might as well just fast travel to nearest position all the time.
After you corssed the world 3 times it gets boring.

To get ingredients to upgrade your potions ? (Basically the same thing you wanted here : gather ingredient.)
Or because something caught your eyes somewhere and you wanted to inspect it ?
Or maybe to see how the world reacted to the choices you made there the last time you were there ?
Or maybe because you just want to explore and do not need incetive to do so ?

Maybe CDPR could do it right, but in any game I played in an open-world and an alchemy system, gathering plants and resources was definitely not what pushed me to explore a place. Gathering was always downright boring and uninteresting. If the developers want me to go somewhere, they have to attract me there from far away : something that catch your eyes and that makes you want to see it for yourself.
I know for a fact that gathering plant is not such a thing for me.

I love some of the ideas of your system (potion upgrades / more powerful versions of potions, the whole "being allowed to take max. 2 potions in battle", the toxicity (which hopefully has negative effects if too high this time around), hell even the mutagenic potions (as long as "mutagens" are still a thing separately).

But that auto-refill thing is nonsense.

Except that, if the auto-refill is done well, it would mean much more in term of level-design than just have your potions and bombs auto-refill. It would mean having much less ingredients on the map to the point that you could hardly have enough supply for the whole game with the 'legacy' system.
I don't think the potion upgrade system would work without auto-refill and I believe it was created beacause it could work with it. If I did a fully upgraded potion that took me several hours of finding the (hopefully) rare ingredients and then, I use it in a fight during which I didn't needed it, I know for sure that I wouldn't create another fully upgraded potion again. Or I would just keep it, waiting for the right fight tha would never come cause I would never dare use it to see its actual effect.

And so, I don't think that simply toggling on/off an auto-refill system can be a thing. Or at least, not easily done.
It would simply mean to much difference in terms of balance.

If that is not provided, what can we expect to be?

Players playing a (hopefully) very good game.
 
It makes more sense, to me at least, if CDPR came up with this system just to spare them the time and effort of placing a huge number of herbs and other materials in the world, like someone's mentioned already. That would be a better excuse than them gutting the alchemy system because players like to horde stuff in an RPG.
 
The more I think about the auto-refill and what it could change and bring to the game, the more I like it. Less clutter in inventory, less clutter in world map. Ingredients that you DO find might give you a sense of true achievement (as opposed to just clicking away to pick up your 145th plant just because you can). Ingredients will most probably be connected to the treasure hunting activity, as well.

Also, economy might be less prone to abuse (less stuff to stack, less things to sell, less money Geralt will have).
 

Jupiter_on_Mars

Guest
The more I think about the auto-refill and what it could change and bring to the game, the more I like it. Less clutter in inventory, less clutter in world map. Ingredients that you DO find might give you a sense of true achievement (as opposed to just clicking away to pick up your 145th plant just because you can). Ingredients will most probably be connected to the treasure hunting activity, as well.

Also, economy might be less prone to abuse (less stuff to stack, less things to sell, less money Geralt will have).

Let's go though your list.
1. Less clutter in the inventory.
Have a realistic inventory. Restrict both carrying weight and carrying volume, use slots if need be. Problem solved.

2. Less cluttered world map.
Plant fewer alchemic herbs throughout the world. Problem solved.

3. Sense of achievement.
Make alchemic ingredients hard to find. Problem solved.

4.Fool proof economy.
Make alchemic ingredients hard to find. Problem solved.

To balance things out, have herbalists sell Geralt low and mid level alchemic ingredients. He's able to contract with a pharmacy or herbalists a regular supply either of ingredients or potions themselves. Potions can be used multiple times.
Problem solved.

Why do we need auto-refilling potions again?
I mean, so far the arguments in favour of them have been so flimsy, so contrived and so oblique, that I really look forward hearing the Reds defend the solution. Either something is escaping me or something has escaped them.
 
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Should be clearer now.

Maybe herbs in the environment is still a thing, and they just weren't present or turned on, so to speak, in any of the areas shown in the E3 gameplay footage or the behind-closed-doors demo.
Populating huge areas with lootable plants, bushes and shrubberies (in a natural way) shouldn't be much of a (time consuming) problem with SpeedTree, which, iirc, is the main tool for generating/spawning all the game world's flora in The Witcher 3 as well.

I doubt its a matter of flipping a switch to turn them on/off. Every detail of the game's environments have been handcrafted, so that suggests that they are not using the automatic procedural generation of feature of Speedtree. So the lootable herbs that are in the game are deliberately placed where they are.
 
Let's go though your list.
1. Less clutter in the inventory.
Have a realistic inventory. Restrict both carrying weight and carrying volume, use slots if need be. Problem solved.

2. Less cluttered world map.
Plant fewer alchemic herbs throughout the world. Problem solved.

3. Sense of achievement.
Make alchemic ingredients hard to find. Problem solved.

4.Fool proof economy.
Make alchemic ingredients hard to find. Problem solved.

To balance things out, have herbalists sell you low and mid level alchemic ingredients. Potions can be used multiple times. Problem solved.

Why do we need auto-refilling potions again?
I mean, so far the arguments in favour of them have been so flimsy, so contrived and so oblique, that I really look forward hearing the Reds defend the solution. Either something is escaping me or something has escaped them.

The reds have already said that they did it because no body was using it and were just hording stuff. Keeping the W2 system but making ingredients harder to find, putting fewer of them out there, and heavier restrictions on inventory would have the opposite effect of what their stated goal with this the auto-refill is... which is to get people using potions all the time.
 

Jupiter_on_Mars

Guest
The reds have already said that they did it because no body was using it and were just hording stuff. Keeping the W2 system but making ingredients harder to find, putting fewer of them out there, and heavier restrictions on inventory would have the opposite effect of what their stated goal with this the auto-refill is... which is to get people using potions all the time.

Check updated post. Giving Geralt the ability to purchase low and mid level ingredients from herbalists scattered through the world and/or a pharmacy, and the ability to contrract a regular supply of either ingredients or potions at a cost addresses those concerns.

It seems to me there would be nothing left for the new system to solve. But I await further details. Anyway, trying to get people to use potions seems just as misguided as persuading them to Quen more often.
 
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Check updated post. Giving Geralt the ability to purchase low and mid level ingredients from herbalists scattered through the world and/or a pharmacy, and the ability to contrract a regular supply of either ingredients or potions at a cost addresses those concerns.

It seems to me there would be nothing left for the new system to solve. But I await further details.

Vendors sold ingredients in W2, so there is still no real change there.
 
2. Less cluttered world map.
Plant fewer alchemic herbs throughout the world. Problem solved.

3. Sense of achievement.
Make alchemic ingredients hard to find. Problem solved.

4.Fool proof economy.
Make alchemic ingredients hard to find. Problem solved.

With that part, you might solve the problem, but you might also create another one : people might not use the potion which ingrdients were too hard to find, in fear that it could be more useful later.
For some people, and I take that you are one of them, this is not a problem. But for some others, it is.
I just found a very rare ingredient for a very powerful potion on the body of an ice giant, it was hard, I nearly died (and reloaded twice - just for the sake of insisting on difficulty) : great achievement. With that ingredient I am able to make a powerful potion (great achivement, again) that I will be able to use once (or as many time as multiple times can mean). If I use this potion in a situation I didn't need it, I will have to hunt another ice giant or whatever (if there are some remaining) to be able to have another bottle of the potion.
Or I won't use it at all, because I don't want to lose the potion, which I almost died to make, on a meaningless fight after which there could be a fight I might have bigger need of that potion.

Why do we need auto-refilling potions again?

Auto-refilling potion should be seen, I think I read something alike on this thread, like an upgrade tree of the character, along with the skill tree.
The skill tree makes you more powerful all along the game, the auto-refilling potions too. Instead of buying skills by spending skill points earned through xp, you spend ingredients earned by exploration/big monster fight/whatever can make these challenging and interesting to get.
It is a set of upgradable and of limited use (per fight) buffs from which you will be able to select what you think is the best approch for your next fight. (without the fear of losing that potion you almost died to get on a too easy fight).

Do we need such a system ?
I don't know. And quite frankly, I don't quite care.
But I don't think of it in terms of need about them, I think in terms of gameplay and interest in it. There are lots of ways to make this system fail, there are some to make this system work. The same as in any idea of gameplay.

In the end, if the system works for me in the final game, it will be great. If it feels too shallow, it won't be great.
 
I don't see problem, if you don't use potions, it's only your problem...
Many times I don't have orens to buy items, maybe auto refill orens? Why not? Looting is boring, and I don't like selling items, if there are auto refill potions, I want same with orens...

Auto refill I said NO, if CDPR give it optional I don't have nothing against...
 
I doubt its a matter of flipping a switch to turn them on/off. Every detail of the game's environments have been handcrafted, so that suggests that they are not using the automatic procedural generation of feature of Speedtree. So the lootable herbs that are in the game are deliberately placed where they are.
'Handcrafted' may be applicable to the points of interest and important landmarks in the environment but I (highly) doubt that, in case of the flora each and every tree, bush or grassy strip was carefully placed by hand.

To my understanding that's exactly what SpeedTree or similar software is used for: To significantly lighten the workload for the developer by letting some fairly sophisticated algorithms 'seed' plants, trees, grass, bushes, etc while factoring in several parameters like altitude, terrain type, lighting and weather conditions, and so on. It's corrections or adjustments to the already placed flora where the developer steps in. And even the 'touching up' is most likely reduced to a minimum due to the algorithms doing their job and automatically placing everything in a way that's both satisfying and most importantly already looks and feels natural.

In no way was 'every detail' or 'everything' we saw of the Swamps' or No Man's Land's flora placed by hand.
I may have to eat my words here afterwards, but... no, no way.

And CDPR definitely uses SpeedTree for The Witcher 3 (or so I think I heard or read somewhere), so... if it's not used for what it's usually used for, why should CDPR license it again?

No, I think it would be very well within the bounds of possibility to let SpeedTree semi-randomly populate selected areas (where it makes sense and within reason) with herbal plant life.
It's just a question if CDPR is willing to do that.
 
No, I think it would be very well within the bounds of possibility to let SpeedTree semi-randomly populate selected areas (where it makes sense and within reason) with herbal plant life.
It's just a question if CDPR is willing to do that.

But how many herbs? How many different varieties in each region? How much variation across regions? If you emulate the TW2 system, you're going to need a minimum of nine substances, for the TW1 system you need three times that. Each one has to be made available in plants and monsters for every kind of ecosystem, from ice fields to marshland.

So how do you design it? If they make the plants easy to find, there's no challenge in it. If they restrict them to certain locations and force you to travel to top up, it's just another kind of repetitive fetch quest. And they're clearly pleased with the way they've designed the environment in a way that works - you can't just throw in a few thousand herbs and keep that level of planned design.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that there's nothing inherently wonderful about the potion system from TW1 and TW2. It was just a mechanic that worked for those games, but if it conflicts with other visions that they have, then it can be dropped.
 
no body was using it and were just hording stuff.

I'm sure many of us never had this problem


@Tocsin
just found a very rare ingredient for a very powerful potion on the body of an ice giant, it was hard, I nearly died (and reloaded twice - just for the sake of insisting on difficulty) : great achievement. With that ingredient I am able to make a powerful potion (great achivement, again) that I will be able to use once (or as many time as multiple times can mean). If I use this potion in a situation I didn't need it, I will have to hunt another ice giant or whatever (if there are some remaining) to be able to have another bottle of the potion.
Or I won't use it at all, because I don't want to lose the potion, which I almost died to make, on a meaningless fight after which there could be a fight I might have bigger need of that potion

They could have simply applied the "teabag" idea to those ingredients, if you got a really rare ingredient from a ice giant, that ingredient could be used maybe 5 times, you could make five of those super rare potions or 5 different super powerful potions, and if you still hoard them having 5 spares then you have a serious hoarding problem.
 
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I don't see problem, if you don't use potions, it's only your problem...
Many times I don't have orens to buy items, maybe auto refill orens? Why not? Looting is boring, and I don't like selling items, if there are auto refill potions, I want same with orens...

Auto refill I said NO, if CDPR give it optional I don't have nothing against...

MILLION TIMES THIS!!!

All this does is sets very dangerous precedent and whether some would like to admit it or not it does DUMBS DOWN the gameplay and when Skyrim requires you to collect herbs than you can't help yourself but be worried about such changes.

And just as you said...fighting..agh it's so boring and it's fetch quest where you have to collect a lot of dead people...let's insert console command kill.I mean we could as well just replace everything with press button for Geralt to swag.Isn't that AWESSSSSSSOOOOOMMEE.No,it isn't imo.IMO there is fun in searching for plants and being carefull how you use your potions and powerfull potions made out of rare ingredients giving you sense of accomplishment when you make them and just feeling rare and unique because I had to actually work on making them.

Again implement different game modes and you've got win-win situation.But some people prefer only to have it their way and like when others feel let down (those who are against different optional modes).
 
'Handcrafted' may be applicable to the points of interest and important landmarks in the environment but I (highly) doubt that, in case of the flora each and every tree, bush or grassy strip was carefully placed by hand.

To my understanding that's exactly what SpeedTree or similar software is used for: To significantly lighten the workload for the developer by letting some fairly sophisticated algorithms 'seed' plants, trees, grass, bushes, etc while factoring in several parameters like altitude, terrain type, lighting and weather conditions, and so on. It's corrections or adjustments to the already placed flora where the developer steps in. And even the 'touching up' is most likely reduced to a minimum due to the algorithms doing their job and automatically placing everything in a way that's both satisfying and most importantly already looks and feels natural.

In no way was 'every detail' or 'everything' we saw of the Swamps' or No Man's Land's flora placed by hand.
I may have to eat my words here afterwards, but... no, no way.

And CDPR definitely uses SpeedTree for The Witcher 3 (or so I think I heard or read somewhere), so... if it's not used for what it's usually used for, why should CDPR license it again?

No, I think it would be very well within the bounds of possibility to let SpeedTree semi-randomly populate selected areas (where it makes sense and within reason) with herbal plant life.
It's just a question if CDPR is willing to do that.

SpeedTree is made up of many parts, developers have a lot of freedom in how they leverage the technology. In any case, I'm not even sure how the discussion got here. Whether they are using SpeedTree to "randomly" generate the assets or not is pretty much irrelevant, eitherway there is additional work involved -- by the people individually placing them or by the folks that need to make "corrections" afterward. Your original post talked about them wasting development time to "get rid of them".


I'm sure many of us never had this problem

Thats great... That doesn't mean it wasn't an problem for many others. I'm only relaying what CDPR itself has said, I can't imagine that they are just making up non-existent issues and gutting a system that is widely loved.
 
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@Pajkes - calm down and keep the discussion civil, or walk away from it. Your choice.

@King Milhouse - agree that the "teabag" does maybe give a good compromise solution. I've been concentrating on trying to think about WHY they made the decision, and what problem they were trying to address. As I mentioned earlier, I suspect that it was probably partly because of the issue of populating the world with ingredients, and partly because they had a specific vision of the inventory management, which gives the impression it may be more limited than in the previous games. I don't think it was because of the UI, or because their vision is to dumb-down the game.

So if populating the world with plants and/or inventory management was the problem, what would work as an alternative solution that would keep everyone happy? The teabag approach or the idea of multiple drinks from one bottle might be the answer.
 
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