The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

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The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

  • Yes

    Votes: 250 24.3%
  • No

    Votes: 270 26.2%
  • I need to see it in action to be sure

    Votes: 294 28.6%
  • I prefer the system of TW1

    Votes: 363 35.3%
  • I prefer the system of TW2

    Votes: 104 10.1%

  • Total voters
    1,029
I was a potion guzzling freak in my games. I don't recall anyone saying potion hoarding was an issue. As others have mentioned, alchemy is closely tied to exploration and the size of the map. I strongly feel the new changes reflect that. It's open world now, we don't know how often we'll come across the right herbs, when to drink or abstain. There are snowy regions, maybe well be covering vast stretches of land with no herbs in sight. I think the open world changes everything. Still not sure I like any of the changes, just thinking out loud here.
 
The fact that Konrad keeps bringing up this auto-refill system in interviews for no reason makes the situation worse, and has me really worried that they might actually stick with it in spite of the negative feedback.

Many fans throughout the forums (loyal fans that have been supporting CDPR for many years I might add) ask again and again for potions to have a visual effect on geralt (black veins, dilated pupils, severe paleness etc). Response from CDPR: … … … …. …………

A small fraction of fans(many of them newcomers to the series) mention they end up hoarding potions, and it kinda bugs them. Response from CDPR: Ok don't worry guys we'll overhaul the entire potion system so that the 10% of fans who actually hoard potions are forced to use them, and you 90% who really never had this problem and loved the alchemy the way it was can just go f... deal with it.

And many loyal fans of the game may also be in that significant group that said they want more information before deciding, and are therefore OK with the fact that he's saying more about it.

Do NOT turn this into "long-term fans" or "loyal fans" vs "new fans", as you have absolutely no evidence of that, and it is definitely NOT an appropriate way to try to bolster your argument. If there are further posts attempting to "blame" fans of this game for this decision, or to be a more loyal fan than those who disagree with you, expect to see further moderator action.
 
Konrad said so himself, the decision was made because some fans complained about hoarding potions, but if you look at the poll and at the main point the majority of users are making, we see that those who complained about hoarding are a minority.
In fact, I can't remember one single person who thought potion hoarding was a problem,( at least here in the official forums)

Where did he say that? In the above he simply says that they put a lot of work into Alchemy and people didn't use it so they decided to change it. There is a huge difference between a developer caving in to demand and developers making changes based on observed player behavior. What you think is/isn't a problem is irrelevant, CDPR is the one making those decisions and they have access to data and metrics that you do not.

The Witcher games have sold over 7 million units. A poll where 250 people say they hate the new system, a system they have never used or seen in action, carries little value.
 
However, you do need to take into account that the people on the this forum are big fans who most likely are with The Witcher since the beginning. If you would do a public poll, I think the numbers would differ. You said it yourself, on this forum noone complained, but I, nor you cannot know how some other people think about it, and how many.

But isn't exactly that what is important?
Isn't that one of the reasons CDPR is such a cool developer and we all have so much respect for them?

That the fans, those who either played TW1 or TW2 or both Witcher games, the hardcore BASE audience is the one that should be heard the most?
And where is that audience if not here? Everyone who has passion for The Witcher series and wants to say his/her opinion is here.
On those official forums.

I understand the urge and the necessity of having to watch out that a casual audience is not bored but excited by the games you make, I understand there needs to be appeal and (optional) easy solutions. But isn't it the first priority to look how the guys who followed you for years, bought your games when you were not such a big studio and loved them, that those people are thought of?

Now I am in NO way saying they don't do that. I'm just pointing that out as counter-argument for your post.

I was a potion guzzling freak in my games. I don't recall anyone saying potion hoarding was an issue. As others have mentioned, alchemy is closely tied to exploration and the size of the map. I strongly feel the new changes reflect that. It's open world now, we don't know how often we'll come across the right herbs, when to drink or abstain. There are snowy regions, maybe well be covering vast stretches of land with no herbs in sight. I think the open world changes everything. Still not sure I like any of the changes, just thinking out loud here.

I do not think that would be a problem considering that herbs are not the only source for alchemy ingredients, if you kill monsters you also get ingredients. In TW2 I often had potions made out of monster loot only or out of herbs only. The great thing about that system is that except for super special potions the brewing is dynamic and allows for multiple different ingredients to be used as long as they have the same base components.

The Witcher games have sold over 7 million units. A poll where 250 people say they hate the new system, a system they have never used or seen in action, carries little value.

I doubt CD Project has more than 200 sources for the "hoarding problem" either.
Also, I think a poll of 250 people is a pretty good example audience especially if they are as passionate and engaged as they are here on the forums. After all if you are a person with internet and you want to give feedback the only place to do that is here.
 
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But isn't exactly that what is important?
Isn't that one of the reasons CDPR is such a cool developer and we all have so much respect for them?

That the fans, those who either played TW1 or TW2 or both Witcher games, the hardcore BASE audience is the one that should be heard the most?
And where is that audience if not here? Everyone who has passion for The Witcher series and wants to say his/her opinion is here.
On those official forums.

I understand the urge and the necessity of having to watch out that a casual audience is not bored but excited by the games you make, I understand there needs to be appeal and (optional) easy solutions. But isn't it the first priority to look how the guys who followed you for years, bought your games when you were not such a big studio and loved them, that those people are thought of?

Now I am in NO way saying they don't do that. I'm just pointing that out as counter-argument for your post.
Not really a counter argument. :p I fully agree with everything you said.
I just pointed out that what we, as in the hardcore fanbase want does not necessarily equal what the majority wants. I for instance am also not really fond af the idea, but I trust cdpr they'll choose what is best for the fanbase, as in every fan of the series.
Though I also do agree that our voice should have more value cause we have more experience with the game, and know its strenghts and weaknesses.
 
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I doubt CD Project has more than 200 sources for the "hoarding problem" either.
Also, I think a poll of 250 people is a pretty good example audience especially if they are as passionate and engaged as they are here on the forums. After all if you are a person with internet and you want to give feedback the only place to do that is here.

And if we look at that poll, only half of the voters said "No". The rest said "Yes" or "Wait and see". It isn't exactly a justification for making major changes near the end of game development.

What that poll tells me is that it would be useful to have more information about the changes.
 
I doubt CD Project has more than 200 sources for the "hoarding problem" either.
Also, I think a poll of 250 people is a pretty good example audience especially if they are as passionate and engaged as they are here on the forums. After all if you are a person with internet and you want to give feedback the only place to do that is here.

That is total conjecture. They could easily have access to thousands of data points; we have no idea. The only thing we can say is that whatever they looked at, it was enough for them to decide they wanted to change it and the team is happy with those changes. A team that is no doubt full of Witcher fans who are every bit as hardcore as the people on this forum.
 
What pisses me off the most is the fact that they withhold the most important things about what they're changing, how the hell do we get any say in what they're doing when we don't bloody know what they're doing to begin with. This alchemy system could be a piece of shit but it'll be too set in stone to fix, it's all a matter of "wait and see" and has been from the very start.
 
What pisses me off the most is the fact that they withhold the most important things about what they're changing, how the hell do we get any say in what they're doing when we don't bloody know what they're doing to begin with. This alchemy system could be a piece of shit but it'll be too set in stone to fix, it's all a matter of "wait and see" and has been from the very start.
Thats pretty normal that they dont spew out every little info......you would have to be part of the team to have this kind of info.. in the end you are the customer....
They are gamers themselfes... i dont think they would create themselfes smth they dont like...
 
And if we look at that poll, only half of the voters said "No". The rest said "Yes" or "Wait and see". It isn't exactly a justification for making major changes near the end of game development.

What that poll tells me is that it would be useful to have more information about the changes.
If CDPR would consider some of the suggestions in the thread (e.g. the 'tea bag' solution) the changes probably wouldn't have to be as major. Probably.

And yes, more info is definitely what this thread needs.
Was it, by any chance you that possibly maybe intends to visit CDPR's booth at Gamescom this year? I could have sworn that somewhere someone mentioned something along those lines.


I think the main problem (even without knowing all the details and how exactly it's supposed to fit into the whole) for a lot of people here is that auto-refilling, infinite (the terminology alone, yuck) potions/bombs/oils/whatnot just seem so out of place and absolutely not fitting with the overall tone of the game, which is supposed to be all mature, immersive and about freedom of choice.

Now considering that automatisms introduced into traditionally hardcore RPGs usually eliminate choice, break immersion and basically do the thinking (and doing) for the player as if he wasn't capable of it, one shouldn't be surprised that ye olde hardcore playerbase is getting riled up and reaching for their torches and pitchforks. Especially when the prospect is that CDPR apparently generalizes the audience to only consist of (exaggeration incoming, apologies in advance) ADHD-ridden casuals that cannot be entrusted with in-game procedures that require more than one mouseclick.

If just the auto-refilling part would be optional like the recently confirmed auto-levelling feature - awesome, thank you, THANK YOU for listening, CDPR.
But continuing with the current 'automated' approach to the alchemy system and forcing it on everybody by default just because metrics and statistics say so is not the way to go.

As mentioned, there are a couple of really good suggestions in the thread to counter at least the auto-refilling part and make it optional and there's still about 6 months worth of developement time left... that surely should be enough to whip up something like the alchemy user interface from The Witcher 2(?).
Because, as I see it, that would actually be the only 'major' addition needed to (optionally, of course) substitute for just the auto-refilling part.
 
@thislsmadness

@BlackWolf500 has already answered for me and has said exactly what I would say, but I'll elaborate: I believe the hardcore fans are being left out a bit, many changes are being made to make the game more accessible to newcomers and that is great, but very few changes are being made to make the game enjoyable for those who like a deeper experience(as far as we know), and this change in alchemy is something most of people here in the OFFICIAL CDPR FORUMS(which is the main place for anybody cares to give their feedback directly to the devs) are strongly against. So I find it a bit Ironic that simple things like for example the visual effects from potions thing(something I've seen requested here in the forums since my lurker days) gets ignored while trivial problems like " some people hoard potions throughout the game"(people who do that imo are just bad at managing their inventories, something that was a important part of gameplay until now)


And if we look at that poll, only half of the voters said "No". The rest said "Yes" or "Wait and see". It isn't exactly a justification for making major changes near the end of game development.

Actually 44 people said yes , 115 said they are not sure so you cannot count them with the first group , almost 400 said no (counting those who specified they would prefer W1 or W2)
 
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I think this is a bit too complicated. They aren't changing alchemy to suit new comers. He said that alchemy was underused and many times not used. Since they put so much into it, they want to make it have more appeal to use. This is a double edged sword. Since in the books (i've read thus far), Geralt is neither drinking potions every 30 sec during a match, nor is he constanly gathering herbs for potions (could happen outside the story). Thus far, I believe they will balance the infinite respawning potions by adding more status ailments, which in a sense brings it back to sqaure one. Even if I have infinite rook, if the ailments are non beneficial, I will underuse it. Also, does this mean that I only have to find the ingredients once, after that just keep letting it refil. I think that instead of giving infinite respawning potions, they should ground it more into the books and use something similar to that in the witcher 1. In the books, potions aren't primarily used for humans. It would make more sense to make easy potions easy to find/ make (like celadine in the first game, its everywhere). Make merchants therefore, more disirable for the harder ingredients. And make potions feel necessary. In 'The lesser evil', Geralt didn't take any potions, but in 'The voice of reason, it was more than needed'. In the end, its the fact that this is a game. Players don't see thunderbolt as a potion to help slay monsters, but as a perk to kill things faster. I'll have to see what CDPR has in mind, before final judgements.
 
Actually 44 people said yes , 115 said they are not sure so you cannot count them with the first group , almost 400 said no (counting those who specified they would prefer W1 or W2)

I'm not. I'm counting them as people who prefer more information before demanding that CDPR changes the game.
And I'm not counting the 200 people who expressed a preference for one or both of the existing games at all. It was a multiple choice poll.
150 people said no. You can't count anyone in the "No" group who didn't actually say "No".

I don't think that the poll says much at all, but what it implies is that a significant number of the members of this forum would prefer to find out more, and that the number who have made a snap decision against change without knowing the facts is actually pretty small.

So no, I don't expect CDPR to make changes based on that poll.
 
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@BlackWolf500 has already answered for me and has said exactly what I would say, but I'll elaborate: I believe the hardcore fans are being left out a bit, many changes are being made to make the game more accessible to newcomers, but very few changes are being made to make the game enjoyable for those who like a deeper experience(as far as we know), and this change in alchemy is something most of people here in the OFFICIAL CDPR FORUMS(which is the main place for anybody cares to give their feedback directly to the devs) are strongly against. So I find it a bit Ironic that simple things like for example the visual effects from potions thing(something I've seen requested here in the forums since my lurker days) gets ignored while trivial problems like " some people hoard potions throughout the game"(people who do that imo are just bad at managing their inventories, something that was a important part of gameplay until now)

This game has a scale and scope that dwarfs both the previous games combined -- there are over 100 hours of content here. Alchemy, as a whole, has been tactically expanded and should carry gameplay importance that never existed before. It has a huge open world that is 35 times larger than W2 that you can explore by land and sea; via horse or by boat. The little bits of combat we've seen look much improved over W2. And on top of it all, they are giving it to me 20% cheaper than everyone else. As a hardcore fan, I don't feel left out at all. I also don't think that just because I took 30 seconds to register a forum account that I am entitled to any influence over the game's design.

Actually 44 people said yes , 115 said they are not sure so you cannot count them with the first group , almost 400 said no (counting those who specified they would prefer W1 or W2)

That is a multi-vote poll with 405 total voters.
 
I believe the hardcore fans are being left out a bit, many changes are being made to make the game more accessible to newcomers, but very few changes are being made to make the game enjoyable for those who like a deeper experience(as far as we know), and this change in alchemy is something most of people here in the OFFICIAL CDPR FORUMS(which is the main place for anybody cares to give their feedback directly to the devs) are strongly against

Alright, but now we need a proof that auto-refilling potions (and everything connected to it to make it balanced - which are still speculations, I admit) is neither enjoyable nor deep.
Because, apart from the secondary reagents in the first game, the only enjoyable and somewhat deep part of the alchemy system was, for me, to find the right potion to use against an enemy. The gathering was neither enjoyable nor deep, it was just brainless. And if the system is done the way I hope, they would keep the 'choosing' part and make the gathering interesting.

There may have other ways to make the whole system interesting, but this can be one if done right. If they chose another system and make it right, I'm good. I they chose the auto-refill and make it wrong, I'm not good.

So I find it a bit Ironic that simple things like for example the visual effects from potions thing(something I've seen requested here in the forums since my lurker days) gets ignored while trivial problems like " some people hoard potions throughout the game"(people who do that imo are just bad at managing their inventories, something that was a important part of gameplay until now)

And you truly think that having visual effects (that would be cool to have, I admit) is more important for CDPR than having an alchemy system that is used by people ?
I do not. Because the alchemy has always been a part of the gameplay that was described as 'important'.
 
Alright, but now we need a proof that auto-refilling potions (and everything connected to it to make it balanced - which are still speculations, I admit) is neither enjoyable nor deep.
Because, apart from the secondary reagents in the first game, the only enjoyable and somewhat deep part of the alchemy system was, for me, to find the right potion to use against an enemy. The gathering was neither enjoyable nor deep, it was just brainless. And if the system is done the way I hope, they would keep the 'choosing' part and make the gathering interesting.

There may have other ways to make the whole system interesting, but this can be one if done right. If they chose another system and make it right, I'm good. I they chose the auto-refill and make it wrong, I'm not good.



And you truly think that having visual effects (that would be cool to have, I admit) is more important for CDPR than having an alchemy system that is used by people ?
I do not. Because the alchemy has always been a part of the gameplay that was described as 'important'.

I'm sure people would've been happy with the same alchemy system as in the previous games, the demand for visual effects on potions has been raging on since the first Witcher cinematic trailer. They're making the potions actually necessary by making the system retarded when they could've just put the potions in a sub category as eye-candy. The main point they used was the fact that the potions ran out in Act 2 when you're fighting the draugir, something that could easily be fixed by a pause-on-cutscene mechanic.
 
Alright, but now we need a proof that auto-refilling potions (and everything connected to it to make it balanced - which are still speculations, I admit) is neither enjoyable nor deep.
Because, apart from the secondary reagents in the first game, the only enjoyable and somewhat deep part of the alchemy system was, for me, to find the right potion to use against an enemy. The gathering was neither enjoyable nor deep, it was just brainless. And if the system is done the way I hope, they would keep the 'choosing' part and make the gathering interesting.

I agree. Fan loyalty aside, I think what the new alchemy simplifies is the unintelligent part of potion usage (namely, gathering easy-to-find ingredients and a UI-automated recipe selection interface), but what it gives room to is the truly intelligent part of potion usage (namely, experimenting to use the right potion for the right monster). Simplifying an unintelligent, multi-clicking system into an unintelligent, single-clicking system is IMO an improvement. Automation is not always a bad thing - it depends on if that which is automated is smart or not to begin with.

Besids, a whole drowner brain should support more than one potions anyway.

That being said, one problem I do have with auto-refilling as it is currently known is that infinite potion refills does break immersion. How about this: making the players having to gather ingredients once in a long while? Does that seem to be a fine compromise?
 
I agree. Fan loyalty aside, I think what the new alchemy simplifies is the unintelligent part of potion usage (namely, gathering easy-to-find ingredients and a UI-automated recipe selection interface), but what it gives room to is the truly intelligent part of potion usage (namely, experimenting to use the right potion for the right monster)
You sure about this?



That being said, one problem I do have with auto-refilling as it is currently known is that infinite potion refills does break immersion. How about this: making the players having to gather ingredients once in a long while? Does that seem to be a fine compromise?
Sure, as are a couple of other suggestions in this very thread to counter at least the auto-refilling part. The only question remains, if CDPR is willing to listen.
 
You sure about this?


I think that really depends on what you had to do to get those recommendations. If it involves research, then it's not much different to the bestiary in TW1, except that it's put on the potion screen instead of you having to switch to a different screen. If it DOESN'T need research, then I would agree with you.
 
What that poll tells me is that it would be useful to have more information about the changes.

Which we do not get at the moment.

So either they are not sure what to do yet or they want to keep it and don't want to tell us. My guess is the former.

They said they are still "experimenting". However the fact that it is often brought up in interviews makes me really worried personally.

I will also "wait and see", but still, if that auto-refill is not restirced to 1 or 2 "simple potions" and if it is really how it SOUNDS, that all potions refill themselves and you "do not have to worry about not having enough ingredients" and this is not optional then I do just not like it. I might like the potion upgrade system and the way toxicity works, but that doesn't change the fact that I do not like the auto-refilling and it's far away from an ideal or acceptable solution for me, especially for a problem that I personally never saw as problem and I think has some other causes (that I mentioned earlier).

So no, I don't expect CDPR to make changes based on that poll.

But we could at least expect them to look over it again, or can't we?
I mean a lot of people said they have to know more first, which means they probably do not like the idea but they think they might be wrong and it will turn out okay or even better than the system of TW1 or TW2. But even those people are UNSURE about that, which means CDPR should at least consider looking over the system again and look what they can do to sooth the people who have serious concerns here (IMO).

This game has a scale and scope that dwarfs both the previous games combined -- there are over 100 hours of content here. Alchemy, as a whole, has been tactically expanded and should carry gameplay importance that never existed before. It has a huge open world that is 35 times larger than W2 that you can explore by land and sea; via horse or by boat. The little bits of combat we've seen look much improved over W2. And on top of it all, they are giving it to me 20% cheaper than everyone else. As a hardcore fan, I don't feel left out at all. I also don't think that just because I took 30 seconds to register a forum account that I am entitled to any influence over the game's design.

1. It still remains though - and CDPR said this themselves- that if the world in general has not enough content or atmosphere or immersion or systems and mechanic - the world will feel empty. And since alchemy and ingredients gathering is an important part of that for me personally I would like to see a compromise here, because for me auto-refilling makes the potions available all the time after I found the ingredients, with which I have several problems:

A. We will make potions of thin air, need not to collect ingredients, which means no monster loot, less herbs and less immersion

B. Potions are always there even if I do not NEED a potion or do not like to use a specific potion

C. To make the system interesting over the course of the whole game they have to make ingredients rare, which in turn means it will either be too fast and I have all potions after a short time in the game or it will take forever to even get a new type of potion, which means most of the time of the game I will have maybe 1 or 2 potions available and I have to "unlock" the "better" potions over time up to the point that I might get a potion only in the end game and do not have many chances to use them

D. If the effects of said potions are not what I personally prefer or find necessary I might end up not even using the potions that I unlock later on

E. I will always have a potion. That means if I fight of 3 enemies and then sit and meditate before I go on an move I will have all my potions refilled. Rinse and Repeat and I have potions in every possible situation. In this case potions become less a bonus, less a support system and more a necessity and routine, more a system that is just part of the game automatically. They can be used without problems almost anytime, they are always available and I do only need to meditate 2 seconds to have all of them refilled, which also actively eliminates any form of big preparation for an important fight. They become - basically - buffs like in MMOs.

F. I can not go around and collect ingredients, I can not Even BREW them. I mean come on, the ingredients gathering, fine, I don't need that necessarily, especially since in the previous games ingredients always droped with monster loot which means there was enough anyway. But the brewing is also automatic. Which means I do basically do nothing of the work. I do not do a part of it (either the ingredients gathering or the brewing), I just sit down and say "game, please auto-refill my potions". That is lame, sorry.

Hey, I like all the stuff about upgrading potions with special ingredients (at least if we are still able to make the "less powerful" ones afterwards), I love the toxicity (from what it sounds like, hopefully with negative effects), I love even the idea of long-time and support(short-time)potions, the way they are taken, the fact that potions you can take during combat are probably restricted to 2 max, etc. I love all of that. I don't like the auto-refilling.

I agree. Fan loyalty aside, I think what the new alchemy simplifies is the unintelligent part of potion usage (namely, gathering easy-to-find ingredients and a UI-automated recipe selection interface), but what it gives room to is the truly intelligent part of potion usage (namely, experimenting to use the right potion for the right monster). Simplifying an unintelligent, multi-clicking system into an unintelligent, single-clicking system is IMO an improvement. Automation is not always a bad thing - it depends on if that which is automated is smart or not to begin with.

I do not mind the simplification or the intelligent-making of the ingredients collecting itself mind you, the problem is EVERYTHING will be automatic then, the whole system, no collecting, no brewing, you just "have" the potions after the first time.

There could have been so many cool things to do, like for example being able to combine new ingredients without recipe and discovering new potions out of it, experimenting a little bit. Of course with an interesting twists, you have to try the potion before you know it's effect, and the potions CAN have negative effects. That means ultimately that you have some risk VS reward but also some cool experimentation elements in there. Of course you can stick to the formulas and make the normal potions as well.

Would add something new and cool to it.

I would just have preferred a different approach. And I would also have preferred they keep the role-playing aspect of it.
If I can not collect ingredients let me at least brew the potions myself, make the supply dependent on something, and hell make those monsters harder so we have to use potions, fix the problems that were obvious in TW1 and TW2 and that were connected to the alchemy system.

Stuff like that.

Not just making everything automatic and infinite. It's like the developer said in the interview "You do not have to worry about potions anymore". Pure simplification, no twist to it. Sure, the rest with the upgrades, etc has potential. But you have to think of something else then automatically refilling potions. I want to at least have SOME input into what potions to refill, and want at least SOME restriction on the supply for those potions.

That being said, one problem I do have with auto-refilling as it is currently known is that infinite potion refills does break immersion. How about this: making the players having to gather ingredients once in a long while? Does that seem to be a fine compromise?

Yeah indeed it DOES, but according to some people here that doesn't "solve the problem".

You sure about this?




Sure, as are a couple of other suggestions in this very thread to counter at least the auto-refilling part. The only question remains, if CDPR is willing to listen.

I think that really depends on what you had to do to get those recommendations. If it involves research, then it's not much different to the bestiary in TW1, except that it's put on the potion screen instead of you having to switch to a different screen. If it DOESN'T need research, then I would agree with you.

Yes, agreed.
 
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