The Witcher books (SPOILERS)

[CoconutChriss]

Questions about the end of Lady of the Lake

I just finished the final book of the Witcher saga. But I'm not quite sure how to interprete the end.

Spoiler

Did Geralt (and Yennefer) really die? I mean, I know the story of the games.... but I want to focus on the book here. What were Sapkowski's intentions when writing the final pages?

 

[wichat]

That's end allowed CDPR to make The Wticher. Sapkowski let the reader chose its own end, you can chose what you wish happens in your imagination. I always thought that they really don't.

 

[Lieste]

Spoiler

I personally think Geralt does die, but there is intervention from the CPR-aquax and he is brought back from the very edge of death... Yennefer ~ I think she just exhausts her strength trying to heal Geralt, but isn't dead.

There does appear, on the other hand to be some constraint - the result of their rescue seems to be as ambiguous as that of Arturus Pendragon, and his status as "lost to the world" but not dead seems to exist. They are left on the Isle of Apples/Av'allach/Avalon, and Cirilla cannot or will not stay with them.

It, and the contrasting/contradictory narration/history of the legend of the witcher Geralt are intended to be uncertain, and confusing. It is a mystery with much lost in unreliable detail and lost and mistaken sequences.

 

[Yourself.409]

So Assire and Fringilla have this talk about how Emhyr once gave them a strand of hair of a person he needed to find, and they say that it's a different lock than what he gave the astrologist. Whose was the second strand, then, and what's with Emhyr's confusion (if it's that)?

It might be explained later on in the books, but I don't remember the answer from my previous readthrough and I'm worried I'll forget to ask later on. I'm a bit puzzled about this hairy business.

So this is a bit late, sorry.
I just read the book, so actually that isn't quite what they say. It isn't the astrologist' hair sample they got. [Spoiler: They once got a strand hair of a person they needed to find (Ciri), and now Assire manages to get a lock of hair from the "Ciri" who is in the empire - You know, the girl who isn't actually Ciri, but a plantet 'fake'. They then conclude from the two strands of hair, that these two people are different persons. So they manages to find out that the fake "Ciri" isn't Ciri, because their hair doesn't match. [/Spoiler]

 

[kevokoma]

Hey guys really quick question. I'm confused as to the order of the books. I finished Blood of elves and then started Baptism of fire(which was published after BoE?) but I'm totally lost..so much seemed to have happened that I seem to have a skipped a couple of books.

Have I?

 

[ReptilePZ]

Hey guys really quick question. I'm confused as to the order of the books. I finished Blood of elves and then started Baptism of fire(which was published after BoE?) but I'm totally lost..so much seemed to have happened that I seem to have a skipped a couple of books.

Have I?

Yeah. you've skipped Time of Contempt.

 

[kevokoma]

Yeah. you've skipped Time of Contempt.

Well..shit.

Ok thanks for the info.

 

[spektroskopista]

@Crivilnite
Baba Yaga comes to mind. Haensel und Gretel had one too. And there is vague demon upon which devourers in Witcher 1 were based. Most slavic lore fell victim to christianity. Vikings used stone to write their legends, and there was Iceland which preserved them to our times. Slavs used wood and bark for writing so all we know now is reconstruction based on folklore. So it's all rather vague but most man eaters in mythology were female.

 

[Crivilnite]

@Crivilnite
Baba Yaga comes to mind. Haensel und Gretel had one too. And there is vague demon upon which devourers in Witcher 1 were based. Most slavic lore fell victim to christianity. Vikings used stone to write their legends, and there was Iceland which preserved them to our times. Slavs used wood and bark for writing so all we know now is reconstruction based on folklore. So it's all rather vague but most man eaters in mythology were female.

Thanks for the answer, did know that references but thought maybe was a more specific one. How that old man is called in polish? i will try to ask to Sapkowski if i have the chance, going to a couple of conferences with him this summer.

 

[Tjerra]

Thanks for the answer, did know that references but thought maybe was a more specific one. How that old man is called in polish? i will try to ask to Sapkowski if i have the chance, going to a couple of conferences with him this summer.

He's called Leśny Dziadek in Polish.

I looked it up, and actually there seems to be a figure called Leśny Dziad or Borowy existing in slavic mythology. According to http://fronsac.republika.pl/mitologiaslowianska/leksykondemonow.htm it's a forest demon and the ruler of the woods, living in inaccessible parts of the forest, taking on different animal shapes (mostly that of a bear), and sometimes it's also described as a small old man.

Didn't found anything about that man eating thing, though, another page mentioned he's to be said to harm people who harmed the woods or the animals in it, so maybe Sapkowski added it on that base to make him more creepier?

 

[Crivilnite]

He's called Leśny Dziadek in Polish.

I looked it up, and actually there seems to be a figure called Leśny Dziad or Borowy existing in slavic mythology. According to http://fronsac.republika.pl/mitologiaslowianska/leksykondemonow.htm it's a forest demon and the ruler of the woods, living in inaccessible parts of the forest, taking on different animal shapes (mostly that of a bear), and sometimes it's also described as a small old man.

Didn't found anything about that man eating thing, though, another page mentioned he's to be said to harm people who harmed the woods or the animals in it, so maybe Sapkowski added it on that base to make him more creepier?

Thanks a lot, i was curious mainly by his knowledge about Ciri's powers, guess it's not more deeper than it appears.

 

[spektroskopista]

This Leśny Dziadek sounds a lot like Leszy - which appears in Sapkowski's works as shape shifting demon using most often form of wildcat and will probably occur in Witcher 3 as Leshen in english version.
A bit of side-note here:
I don't know if it's widely known but Geralt was (at least partially) inspired by certain Tomasz Błudnicki - a hero of Józef Hen's novel "Crimen". Crimen's opening lines were repeated almost word for word in "The Witcher" short story, just a few lines, but enough to be sure that Sapkowski knew Crimen. Geralt's moral struggle mirrors the one of Tomasz. I'm translating Season of Storms, and there is a place when witcher feels that he should kill certain mage, but as he has certain doubts he does not do so. It laster turns out that mage was after all guilty, just not in the way it looked at the first glance. Witcher ended up killing him anyway. But that moment of struggle was depicted nicely. Thoughts that someone else would not hesitate in his place and so on.
A lot like Tomasz Błudnicki. He was a noble that served at war, he was in siege of Moscow where he supported claim to the throne of Maryna Mniszkówna.
And we finally get back to topic. Tomasz feels condemned by the fact that when he was in besieged camp he saw various things he deemed wrong and he didn't react. There's recurring scene when he himself stands in line to cauldron in which hanged man is boiling, and when it's his turn he extends his hand first, and then escapes in awe. He thinks of himself as doomed because he was ready to eat human flesh, he saw others eating and done nothing.
So we at least now this theme was known to Sapkowski. This is relation of real siege, then there was Great hunger (Holodomor) in Ukraine in thirties, when all hell broke loose. Parents were eating children and so on. Overall up to six or seven million people starved to death. It was forbidden by regime to talk about it. Probably that's why people did - to spite regime. There was famous 1000 days blockade of Leningrad where cannibalism also occured, Stalingrad probably too. First was hinted by Strugacki brothers in one of their novels. Sapkowski most likely knows their works. So I think these all were condensed in a form spiced by folklore. There probably is no one clear legend behind it. But this is only my opinion.

 

[Sky999]

Question about the books (spoilers)

After finishing the books there were some references to something at points in it that I was hoping could be clarified.

Spoiler

In points in the book, especially a chapter entry towards the end of Lady of the Lake about Philippa, and before that in conversations with Nimue and Condwiramurs, the historical narrative keeps referring to people like Triss and Philippa as saints, describing Philippa's death as though she were a martyr, that sort of thing. Just to clarify then, is the suggestion that the Lodge of Sorceresses grows after the events in the books to be a sort of religion for the people? Or rather was it a religion for sorceresses like Nimue and Condwiramurs?

Spoiler

Also, I don't suppose I missed some explanation in the books that would shed light on why Coën was at the Battle of Brenna? Is it supposed to be unexplained?

 

[StaGiors]

About the first question, you pretty much answered it yourself. The Lodge either grew to do great things, which I doubt since Phillipa was burned alive. Or it's just how Sorceresses (like Nimue) refer to these women. I mean, Phillipa was killed because she was a witch. And given than a lot of years have passed, people understand that witches can't be blamed for all the shit in the world.

View it as the Christian Saints/Martyrs (that I don't know much about).

I think I remember Triss saying to Geralt, that Coen fought at Brenna because he was not a selfish asshole, bitter with the world. He cared about what happens politically and so should Geralt. Triss' words. Or Yennefer's, I'm having doubts.

 

[sfinx]

@Sky999
2nd question ... Exactly as StaGiors said, Coen wasn't selfish and cared about the world. Withers were keeping for long time their (for me selfish and naive) policy of neutral guards of people.
But then Triss came to Caer Morhen, she had a beautiful speech and if you read it, I think it's clear, why he changed his mind..

 

[TheDespondentMind2]

You know looking back, I really don't understand why Ciri has all those powers, I mean her ancestors didn't have them, by them meaning the original founders of the line. So why would she and her mother have these powers ?

 

[Lieste]

Lara was near the culmination of a line of genetic manipulation to make a "gift" for the Aen Elle/Aen Seidhe, a key to unlock the lost abilities to move freely between worlds. She instead of following the plan, decided to run off with a human sorcerer for love.

There was some loss of potency, but the genetic line is supposed to have been re-activated in Pavetta and then nearly fully formed in Cirilla, though both are untutored and uncontrolled (compared to their strength). It also isn't necessarily that her powers are greater, but they are different to most sorceresses, and more raw.

Not sure how CD-PR have chosen to portray her... but this was the version of the story as told by the Lodge... (on the other hand.. Codringer thought she wasn't Lara's descendent, but rather Falka's and it was "Falka" that she chose out of the blue as her nom-de-guerre.)

 

[jockmick]

I want to discuss the timeline of the books, a little.

According to the wiki, Ciri was born in 1251. The massacre of Cintra was 1262. The Thanedd Coup in 1264. The pogrom in Rivia in September 25, 1268.

In Blood of Elves, Geralt says the following:

Spoiler

"That girl,” said Geralt quietly and calmly, “that petite, delicate princess lived through the Massacre of Cintra. Left entirely to her own devices, she stole past Nilfgaard’s cohorts. She successfully fled the marauders who prowled the villages, plundering and murdering anything that still lived. She survived on her own for two weeks in the forests of Transriver, entirely alone. She spent a month roaming with a pack of fugitives, slogging as hard as all the others and starving like all the others. For almost half a year, having been taken in by a peasant family, she worked on the land and with the livestock.

So, after the massacre of Cintra, when Ciri was 11 years old, she spends almost 7 months on the run before Geralt finds her. Which means that between that time and sometime during 1264 when the coup on Thanedd happens, Ciri spends time in Kaer Morhen and in Ellander with Yennefer. I'm just a bit surprised that she didn't spend more time at these places. So, all that happens to Ciri after Thanedd takes place during almost 4 years. Because, they rescue Yennefer in early 1268, right? And then, the trio travels for a few months around to the places Ciri was in, before parting for a few days, and meeting up in Rivia.

I'm just surprised that Ciri spent so much time away from Geralt and Yen, and so little time with them. I didn't get that impression at all. After Thanedd, Geralt heals in Brokilon for like five months, but the journey south with the fellowship can't possibly take almost three years. At most six months. I'm a bit confused...

The years in the wiki must be wrong. And I cannot remember any years mentioned in the books. And Vysogota also mentions that Ciri is not yet 16, when she is at his place. And she was there in October, the year before they rescue Yennefer, which I assume is earlier in the same year as the Rivia pogrom.

 

[Gamewidow]

The years in the wiki could well be wrong. They were mostly provided by Ausir, but some by other contributors. When i collated the information, i had not yet been able to read the novels and have since spent much time getting game information. providing quotes from the books is a big help to piecing together the timeline so the work you demonstrate above is what we need to nail down the correct dates.

 

[jockmick]

If anything, I believe the date for the coup on Thanedd to be wrong. If I remember correctly Geralt, Dandelion and Milva set of from Brokilon in June, after Geralt had been there for 5 months, which means the coup on Thanedd happened in Jan/Feb. But if the coup happened that early in 1264, it means that Ciri barely spent a year in Kaer Morhen and Ellander combined.

My impression is that Ciri had been at Kaer Morhen for some time when Triss arrived. And Triss stayed the winter and they left in spring for Ellander. So, Ciri was probably in Kaer Morhen for a year. And then she was in Ellander with Yennefer for about a year as well, if we say she arrived there in Mar/Apr and left for Thanedd with Yen i Jan/Feb the following year.

So, Ciri was with Geralt and Yen for about two years before Thanedd. But, even if the massacre of Cintra was in early 1262, it doesn't add up. Because, she was on the run for 7 months afterwards, and then 2 years with Geralt and Yen, and the coup on Thanedd happened Jan/Feb. So, the coup must have been in 1265 instead I think. Although, it can be possible that she arrived at Kaer Morhen around August of 1262, and left in spring of 1263, and then spent almost a full year in Ellander. But, that's an awfully short time for her to learn all of her Witcheress skills.

And then we have all the events after Thanedd. If my theories are correct, and Thanedd happened in Jan/Feb and Geralt left Brokilon five months later, then where did all the years go before 1268? Geralt and co. leave Toussaint in January the following year after Thanedd, and the impression I got was that they went straight to Castle Stygga to rescue Yennefer. So, where talking about early 1266 when the events at Stygga happens. I guess it is possible that Geralt, Ciri and Yennefer travels the world for two years to all the places where Ciri was in, before August of 1268 when the pogrom of Rivia happens. These dates would also mean that Ciri spent about a year on her own, down in the south with The Rats, Bonhart and Vysogota, which I believe sounds about right.

But, there are still some inconsistencies. If my years are correct, then Ciri was at Vysogota's in October and a couple of months ahead, of 1265. But, Vysogota mentions she is not nearly 16 at the time. Which, she wasn't. She would have just been 14 then. But, when Sapkowski writes she was not nearly 16 then I take it to mean she was 15 going on 16, but she could of course have been 14.

And another thing that confuses is that the chapter about Battle of Brenna is before the chapter about Stygga, even though through my calculations in this post the battle took place two years later after the events at Stygga.

Just some thoughts. The timeline of the books always had me scratching my head a little...

---------- Updated at 04:23 PM ----------

Just noticed that the wiki says Nilfgaard invades the North in July of 1262, which means that the massacre of Cintra took place at the same time. So, add those 7 months when Ciri was on the run after the massacre and we get that Geralt finds her in, like, January 1263. So, Ciri is in Kaer Morhen until spring of 1264, when she leaves for Ellander. And as I discussed above, Geralt and co. leaves Brokilon in June, after Geralt has spent 5 months there after Thanedd, which means that the coup on Thanedd took place in about February that year. But, since Ciri went to Ellander in the spring of 1264, the coup on Thanedd must have happened in 1265, just as I guessed in the post above. Progress!