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The Witcher Universe; Games, Novels, and the split between them (MEGA-SPOILERS)

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NoctemAeternus

Rookie
#1
Mar 24, 2014
The Witcher Universe; Games, Novels, and the split between them (MEGA-SPOILERS)

Hi all, my name is Alex.

Just yesterday I finished reading all of the witcher novels, except the last one (Season of Storms). I am one of these people that got into the witcher universe by playing the games, firstly I played the second one, several times that is, then after finishing it about 3 times, I played the first, about 3 times too, I loved them so much that it became my favourite RPG (even after playing so many over 15 years), so you can imagine how excited I was when the third was announced. I got so excited that I wanted to learn all of the story behind them, and since the second sequel was and is far away from release, I started reading the books. After finishing the Lady of the Lake yesterday, I realised a lot of things, and since none of my close people have any kind of connection or knowledge on and of the witcher universe, I thought I could share my thoughts and trouble here, with other fellow fans, of both the games and the books. I apologise for the long introduction and I promise I will get to the point soon enough, after I warn you though that there are major spoilers regarding the plot of both games & books, so do not read below this part if your wish is to avoid them.


The witcher games are great, on their own they are some of the greatest accomplishments ever created in the field of art, and video games. if you compare them to other games they shine even more, especially compared to the latest games (as of 2008 and after). But in my humble opinion the books outshine the games, for several reasons.

At the very end of the book, Geralt and Yen both die, or not. It doesn't say and that is the whole point of it, to leave you with questions for it is part of the art, it has been done before and will be done in the future, because it's magic and a great way to finish a story. On the other hand, the video games take place AFTER the books, and throughout the Witcher 2 it gives you an explanation of what happened after Geralt died.

The problem for me in that whole idea, is that Sapkowski doesn't consider the game canon, he admits that it is a good piece of art, but as he mentions in a famous interview about the game, a story can only be told through a book. I personally disagree with that because I know from personal experience that a game can tell you a story, can introduce to you unique characters, can make you cry, just as a book can. Not all games can do that, but then again neither can all books, as both can be extremely shallow.

While I disagree with him on that part, I am compelled to agree that the game is not considered canon, for it is his own mind that created this, and has every right to claim what he wants his own et cetera. His opinion created a huge chasm between the games and the novels for me. After finishing the last book it left a hole in me, the usual that is when a story leaves you with questions, I want to find answer for these questions and while before I finished the book I could count on the game for that, now I can't anymore, and this is the whole reason of this post, to cry like a boy who has lost his first pet to death, and share it with other boys that have felt the same as me.

I feel the extraordinary need to say that while the game is supposed to be after the events of the book, it can't, or more like I can't take it seriously enough to make my head believe that this is really what happened after the events of the book. A lot of the events in the game have been recreated based on the events on the books, even burrowed a lot of dialogue from it, and damn they did it great, because it's true art to my eyes and ears, but as much as I love it, after reading through Geralt's, Yen's, Ciri's, and all of these great heroes and villains such as Cahir, Emiel, Milva, Vilgefortz, Duny the emperor of Nilfgaard, and so many others' odyssey, when I play or think of the games I now see 2 versions of each character, 2 Geralts, 2 Triss's, and I fear that in the future it's gonna be 2 Yens and Ciris too, I fear it but still want it.

I wanted and still want the Witcher 3 to give me answers of what happened to Geralt after his death, to see Yen's and Ciri's face. after reading a recent post here in the forums too it even raised me hopes that I will meet mister Emiel Regis Rohellec Terzieff-Godefroy. But then after the books I feel that the answers won't be enough, because they won't be created by the same person that created Geralt and all others.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to read my post, and I really hope that this is not just something that I felt alone, please share if you thought the same as me.
 
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Cs__sz__r

Rookie
#2
Mar 25, 2014
First off, welcome to the forums, you'll find beer and good conversions in the tavern, The Hairy Bear in community. Avoid the big furry thing in the dark corner.

That was one hell of a first post. Your probably not the first to feel this way. And I agree with thegood stories are only found in books, it's a rather rubbish attitude for him to have but he is of a older generation. You can look at the games in about two or three different ways:

1. The games being a sequel or continuation, though that's largely defunct due to the new book,a you mentioned.
2. An alternate continuation or universe. Which isn't so far fetched with Ciri's powers, and so on and so forth.
3. Or you could look at it as a really, really expensive and expansive piece of fanart.
 
Ðarkstar

Ðarkstar

Senior user
#3
Mar 25, 2014
I look at the books as being half canon, reasons for this being that there is a grain of truth in every tale. The games are putting you in the shoes of Geralt whereas the books are telling you about Geralt. The connection between the games and the books can be opened to interpretation but in my mind it's that the books make up the legend and the game is the literal, real-life version.
 
M

Mataresa

Rookie
#4
Mar 25, 2014
I have read book series, that were continued by other authors. This is just the same. Does that make them cannon or noncannon? Well I for myself always make my own canon with the things of the material I like best and changes, where I feel they would be better.
 
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NoctemAeternus

Rookie
#5
Mar 25, 2014
Csàszàr said:
First off, welcome to the forums, you'll find beer and good conversions in the tavern, The Hairy Bear in community. Avoid the big furry thing in the dark corner.

That was one hell of a first post. Your probably not the first to feel this way. And I agree with thegood stories are only found in books, it's a rather rubbish attitude for him to have but he is of a older generation. You can look at the games in about two or three different ways:

1. The games being a sequel or continuation, though that's largely defunct due to the new book,a you mentioned.
2. An alternate continuation or universe. Which isn't so far fetched with Ciri's powers, and so on and so forth.
3. Or you could look at it as a really, really expensive and expansive piece of fanart.
Click to expand...
Thank you but this wasn't my first post, I just can't take actions on my old account (such as posting or replying), and since there's no response in the support e-mail I sent, I have decided to make a new one. I think that the new book is a prequel or at least so it seems from the first chapter that I have actually read (I can't read polish so I read the english translation available for chapter I.

I can look at the game as something alternate even though I spot so many differences after reading the books, one for instance is Geralt. In the killing monsters trailer what he did, I think that Geralt wouldn't. Near the end of the Lady of the Lake novel, he came close to a similar situation, they were on horses with Dandelion travelling to Rivia, a similar situation as in the trailer appeared, and Geralt didn't even flinch, he simply turned his back and moved away, Dandelion even advised him to do so (just like Vesemir in the trailer). I see many differences like that but still I look at it as the continuation of that story, non-canon but still..

Ðarkstar said:
I look at the books as being half canon, reasons for this being that there is a grain of truth in every tale. The games are putting you in the shoes of Geralt whereas the books are telling you about Geralt. The connection between the games and the books can be opened to interpretation but in my mind it's that the books make up the legend and the game is the literal, real-life version.
Click to expand...
That is an interesting thing to do, but as I mentioned above, the books leave you with plenty of questions, and some of them I'm pretty sure that are not supposed to have an answer. The game does give answer to them though, and actually they are pretty decent answers, such as what really happened to Geralt and Yen after they 'died'. As much as I love the game though personally I can't take them for the 'real' answers, I feel as Sapkowski did want to finish it that way, and give more answers about it himself in the future (with more books).

Mataresa said:
I have read book series, that were continued by other authors. This is just the same. Does that make them cannon or noncannon? Well I for myself always make my own canon with the things of the material I like best and changes, where I feel they would be better.
Click to expand...
I wish I could do it myself. I have also found myself in similar situations, one could be this, another one could be the star wars novels and comics, some games that changed developers on the go and I feel it's the same thing. For me though all the story has been created from 1 man, and that man only has the power to say what is and what not. I really wish I could do it your way and I know I would enjoy the third witcher even more, unfortunately I can't.
 
V

volsung

Forum veteran
#6
Mar 25, 2014
Your problem is reading a book or playing a game expecting to find answers. What credibility can a story teller have when his calling is to evoke, entice, provoke and maybe entertain? What credibility does Dandelion have? And does it detract from the value of his verses? That's up to you.

The truth is there is no absolute truth, and a good writer like Sapkowski will leave you with questions just like a good game like The Witcher will not answer every question. And maybe not the way you wanted.

I think it was Ralph Waldo Emerson who said all the work of men is based on somebody else's. There's hardly any originality at all. You can take the games for what they are and enjoy what they offer that a book cannot, or you can dislike them for borrowing from but not reproducing Sapkowski. But just like Picasso's Quixote, art is referential and should be enjoyed for what it is, not what it is not.

Just a personal opinion.
 
Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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NoctemAeternus

Rookie
#7
Mar 25, 2014
You are probably right, and that's what I am going to do, I will play the game exactly as I would, but I know I won't enjoy it as much after reading the books. It is indeed wrong to try and search for the answer of what happened after Geralt and Yen 'died'. If I had read the books first I wouldn't be troubled at all, after all there is beauty when the questions lie unanswered on purpose.

The game although will answer this question, partially the Witcher 2 already has, and for me that shatters a bit of the beauty.

You are also right that this shouldn't be my problem, and probably for a lot of people this is trivial. Unfortunately (or fortunately for me) I got too attached to the story and the characters, I fell in love with it more or less, so yes, for me it is a bigger deal than most of the people, thus making it a problem.
 
D

darcler

Senior user
#8
Mar 25, 2014
Uhm... Sapkowski never said that a story can only be told in a book. He said that the specific story, of which he is the author, can only be continued by himself, as he doesn't believe in the so-called convergence of media, where a game is tie-in to the books, then a movie is a tie-in to the game, which has another tie-in in a comic book series, while also having a tie-in in another books, and so on. Sapkowski also stated that, had he wanted to continue the story of Geralt, it would be stupid if he'd have to play the games to know what he should write. And, quite frankly, I do agree with him on this.
 
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Seeker.217

Ex-moderator
#9
Mar 25, 2014
I also agree could not had put it better myself if I remember right (and IM going back some years here ) when the Red Team showed Sopkowshi what they where doing with TW1 he was pleased with It and he the kind of person that dose not please that easy and it truth I think only he can tell the story/ world of TW then anyone.
 
Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
S

sfinx

Rookie
#10
Mar 26, 2014
I'll tell you my opinion and what is right and wrong (imho) - I don't want to be some judger, I'll just say to you, what I think.
I put it in spoiler tags, it's quite long.

NoctemAeternus said:
Hi all, my name is Alex.
Click to expand...
I think, I will agree at this point :)

The witcher games are great, on their own they are some of the greatest accomplishments ever created in the field of art, and video games. if you compare them to other games they shine even more, especially compared to the latest games (as of 2008 and after). But in my humble opinion the books outshine the games, for several reasons.
Click to expand...
I agree with you - games are really great and books are perfect. I don't want to compare them, because there is no need to do that, but if I would have to do that, I would put books on the first place.

At the very end of the book, Geralt and Yen both die, or not. It doesn't say and that is the whole point of it, to leave you with questions for it is part of the art, it has been done before and will be done in the future, because it's magic and a great way to finish a story. On the other hand, the video games take place AFTER the books, and throughout the Witcher 2 it gives you an explanation of what happened after Geralt died.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree a little bit. I think they both live. There already was big discussion about it and there is no 100% answer on it - as you said, that was purpose. But from small hints I believe they are alive.
1) Ciri told story to Galahad and I belive she told him the truth - if not, whole "Lady of the Lake" could be just big fairy tale. She used irony on the end, that is clear ... there was big wedding so why would she use "lie" during telling him another "lie". That is quite overcombinated ;)
2) There is another line of that story - events on that isle. Yennefer and Geralt were discussing where they are and how did they get there. I don't think some 'after life' would be like that
3) I am not sure who was it but maybe Kallelinski was the one who told us about Arthurian legends and similiar island where one knight was sent to heal his wound and regenerate his power. (This is just very simplyfied story, I don't remember exactly what it was about.)
4) Why would Ciri take dead bodies on some mysterious island?
5) Another friend from here told me story of 'Season of Storm' - I am not sure who was that, because new forum cleared all my messages and I will not continue, because you haven't read it yet, but ... :)
6) If that was just a dream, Ciri would have Kelpia with her, Ciri would ride her, but instead she told she arrived to Galahad's world on boat

...and maybe more hints was there, it's been some time since I read this book.

The problem for me in that whole idea, is that Sapkowski doesn't consider the game canon, he admits that it is a good piece of art, but as he mentions in a famous interview about the game, a story can only be told through a book. I personally disagree with that because I know from personal experience that a game can tell you a story, can introduce to you unique characters, can make you cry, just as a book can. Not all games can do that, but then again neither can all books, as both can be extremely shallow.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's bad that he doesn't consider it as a canon. He had to say it - if he would say something else, he would have to count it as official (canon) sequel. He would be very hampered by it. Some of very important persons died in game - why would he accept that if he would have another plans with them? I don't want Assire and Sabrina to die and I would like to see Foltest in another story, so I am happy he said it.

While I disagree with him on that part, I am compelled to agree that the game is not considered canon
...
The problem for me in that whole idea, is that Sapkowski doesn't consider the game canon
Click to expand...
I am sorry, but I think I don't understand you.
I want to find answer for these questions and while before I finished the book I could count on the game for that, now I can't anymore, and this is the whole reason of this post, to cry like a boy who has lost his first pet to death, and share it with other boys that have felt the same as me.
Click to expand...
I know it's difficult to find the right answers, but I hope some of them will come with next witcher stories. Games are great, but the only "problem" is that you have to take them as separable stories.

I wanted and still want the Witcher 3 to give me answers of what happened to Geralt after his death, to see Yen's and Ciri's face. after reading a recent post here in the forums too it even raised me hopes that I will meet mister Emiel Regis Rohellec Terzieff-Godefroy. But then after the books I feel that the answers won't be enough, because they won't be created by the same person that created Geralt and all others.
Click to expand...
We just have to enjoy those game stories, but we can't take them as book canon. That is only problem. I know it can be difficult to deal with fact that this is not the true and only follow-up, but we can't do anything about it.


PS: As I said I am glad this is not canon. Devs did really great job, but as you can see, there are some differences and your own choices, which rule out the chance to make canon from this story.
For example - Geralt would never, never, never kill dragon. But you have chance to do the opposite, even if the dragon is only possesed girl, which is not imminent threat anymore.
Sorceresses have highly reduced powers - Sabrina did not even fight for her life, I think there wasn't even mention about reading in someone's mind. They were just poor vulnerable girls.
Geralt protected Henselt, he was a bodyguard and regullar soldier in Foltest's army ... another think, which he never did.
Lodge is also portrayed differently - in book they helped significantly to save the North. They presented quite calm side, which aimed for higher and more important goals. Ciri knew that, Geralt knew that, both of them had experience with Philippa's kindness ;) but in game they are presented as one of the worst sides - with personal goals, without chance to defend themselves, without chance for Geralt to side with them.
Triss is also different - if I don't count that problems with Lodge, when two sorceresses do whatever they want?! (Almost impossible.) She is still presented as character with bad secrets - even when she offered Geralt to search for his beloved Yennefer (and she told him this when they slept together and even when she loves him), he always has a chance to be cruel at her and be suspicious of her.
 
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NoctemAeternus

Rookie
#11
Mar 26, 2014
sfinx121 said:
I'll tell you my opinion and what is right and wrong (imho) - I don't want to be some judger, I'll just say to you, what I think.
I put it in spoiler tags, it's quite long.

I think, I will agree at this point :)

I agree with you - games are really great and books are perfect. I don't want to compare them, because there is no need to do that, but if I would have to do that, I would put books on the first place.

I have to disagree a little bit. I think they both live. There already was big discussion about it and there is no 100% answer on it - as you said, that was purpose. But from small hints I believe they are alive.
1) Ciri told story to Galahad and I belive she told him the truth - if not, whole "Lady of the Lake" could be just big fairy tale. She used irony on the end, that is clear ... there was big wedding so why would she use "lie" during telling him another "lie". That is quite overcombinated ;)
2) There is another line of that story - events on that isle. Yennefer and Geralt were discussing where they are and how did they get there. I don't think some 'after life' would be like that
3) I am not sure who was it but maybe Kallelinski was the one who told us about Arthurian legends and similiar island where one knight was sent to heal his wound and regenerate his power. (This is just very simplyfied story, I don't remember exactly what it was about.)
4) Why would Ciri take dead bodies on some mysterious island?
5) Another friend from here told me story of 'Season of Storm' - I am not sure who was that, because new forum cleared all my messages and I will not continue, because you haven't read it yet, but ... :)
6) If that was just a dream, Ciri would have Kelpia with her, Ciri would ride her, but instead she told she arrived to Galahad's world on boat

...and maybe more hints was there, it's been some time since I read this book.

I don't think it's bad that he doesn't consider it as a canon. He had to say it - if he would say something else, he would have to count it as official (canon) sequel. He would be very hampered by it. Some of very important persons died in game - why would he accept that if he would have another plans with them? I don't want Assire and Sabrina to die and I would like to see Foltest in another story, so I am happy he said it.


I am sorry, but I think I don't understand you.
I know it's difficult to find the right answers, but I hope some of them will come with next witcher stories. Games are great, but the only "problem" is that you have to take them as separable stories.

We just have to enjoy those game stories, but we can't take them as book canon. That is only problem. I know it can be difficult to deal with fact that this is not the true and only follow-up, but we can't do anything about it.


PS: As I said I am glad this is not canon. Devs did really great job, but as you can see, there are some differences and your own choices, which rule out the chance to make canon from this story.
For example - Geralt would never, never, never kill dragon. But you have chance to do the opposite, even if the dragon is only possesed girl, which is not imminent threat anymore.
Sorceresses have highly reduced powers - Sabrina did not even fight for her life, I think there wasn't even mention about reading in someone's mind. They were just poor vulnerable girls.
Geralt protected Henselt, he was a bodyguard and regullar soldier in Foltest's army ... another think, which he never did.
Lodge is also portrayed differently - in book they helped significantly to save the North. They presented quite calm side, which aimed for higher and more important goals. Ciri knew that, Geralt knew that, both of them had experience with Philippa's kindness ;) but in game they are presented as one of the worst sides - with personal goals, without chance to defend themselves, without chance for Geralt to side with them.
Triss is also different - if I don't count that problems with Lodge, when two sorceresses do whatever they want?! (Almost impossible.) She is still presented as character with bad secrets - even when she offered Geralt to search for his beloved Yennefer (and she told him this when they slept together and even when she loves him), he always has a chance to be cruel at her and be suspicious of her.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your soothing words, there are plenty of things I don't agree with, but understanding your opinion makes me see more and accept the fact easier.
 
SMiki55

SMiki55

Mentor
#12
Mar 27, 2014
sfinx121 said:
Geralt protected Henselt, he was a bodyguard and regullar soldier in Foltest's army ... another think, which he never did.
Click to expand...
Before "Season of Storms" I also was thinking like that ;)
 
S

sfinx

Rookie
#13
Mar 27, 2014
SMiki55 said:
Before "Season of Storms" I also was thinking like that ;)
Click to expand...
Damn, I have to wait till November :(
 
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