The Yennefer/Triss choice in TW3

[Zeroscape]

Could you provide an example of this, please? I don't mind spoilers in this instance. I would love to have any reason to like her.

Hey Tangsta. I'll try to put my thoughts below. I've read the books once so there may be things I'm missing and all of what I'm listing is my view on it. The main problem with the Geralt/Yen relationship is that it slowly develops over the course of 20 years. There's really no one major moment where they fall for each other or have some epiphany. Instead, it's a slow crawl from fascination, to a deep mutual respect, to regrets and longing, to the eventual deep connection they share. It's a product of small gestures, reactions and brief moments of emotional honesty rather than a few big moments. Neither Geralt nor Yen are particularly open about their emotions and hide them which also contributes to their slow-burn relationship. But as they grow to know each other, they can see through the facade and it starts getting more serious.

They are fire and ice but both enjoy the turbulence and sparks that fly. Both are proud and stick to their own opinions, being quintessential free agents through and through. That does cause both to split up with one another. Yet even when apart they long for each other and have feelings of regret.

The problem is nailing down exactly what it is about them that causes that fascination. There's never a heart-to-heart where they lay all their cards out on the table. It's a relationship of unspoken "knowing" of the other and the emotional pains they have.

So what about Yen is "redeeming"? It's not really any one thing and, as you can tell from above, it's very difficult summarizing their connection succinctly. For me, it's the small gestures of affection they give each other. I could give you some examples, if that's not enough. Or perhaps someone better versed with the material can give you a better/shorter answer than I.

My view is that she provides Geralt with a relationship that, from the outside, may seem almost antagonistic or abusive on the surface, but it operates on a deep level of mutual respect. Neither one really wants to be treated with kid gloves. I suspect Geralt likes the challenge and the fact that she keeps him on his toes. Pretty much every other conquest of his is really just about a sexual connection. He only ever loves Yen, no matter the relationship he is in, to the chagrin of his lover.

After Ciri enters the picture, things solidify between them and they develop into a more solid family dynamic rather than the fickle on-off passion they have for each other.

 

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, which is kind of perhaps TOO mature for the game.

I mean, breaking up with Yennefer because Ciri is an adult and no longer there to bind them is a little TOO realistic.

 

[Zeroscape]

Yeah, which is kind of perhaps TOO mature for the game.

I mean, breaking up with Yennefer because Ciri is an adult and no longer there to bind them is a little TOO realistic.

Maybe, but I think it's more the fact they didn't really deal with the relationship material that already exists for these characters. Triss-Yen-Ciri-Geralt is kept to a minimum level so these issues are never explored. A shame, but not surprising for a video game.

 

[warbaby2]

Maybe, but I think it's more the fact they didn't really deal with the relationship material that already exists for these characters. Triss-Yen-Ciri-Geralt is kept to a minimum level so these issues are never explored. A shame, but not surprising for a video game.

Yet still, we get to either dump Yen or stay with her... in one single dialogue without any other options... weak.

 

[Willowhugger]

Maybe, but I think it's more the fact they didn't really deal with the relationship material that already exists for these characters. Triss-Yen-Ciri-Geralt is kept to a minimum level so these issues are never explored. A shame, but not surprising for a video game.

Can you blame them when people say, "The romance isn't the main plot. This isn't a DATING SIM."

As if good storytelling relied on slashing Drowners.

 

[Zeroscape]

Can you blame them when people say, "The romance isn't the main plot. This isn't a DATING SIM."

As if good storytelling relied on slashing Drowners.

Typical internet argument. Infuriating, haha.

Just the medium that needs to do a lot more catching up on the storytelling department. Less hollywood blockbuster, more long-running tv-show (a good one anyway, haha).

 

[dzbrown]

@dzbrown

Spectacular post, there.

I will say one thing, though, that I think you're trying to put a little too nice a face on Yennefer's actions and the thing is that Geralt can and does call her out on a lot of them. I think that's PART OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP that Yennefer is a flawed and ruthless person while Geralt is a cynical idealist. They compliment each other but butt heads.

The necromancy scene isn't an act of desperation but an act of ruthlessness. Yennefer COULD look for another way than stealing the mask or using black magic but doesn't because she is focused solely on getting her daughter back. Geralt loves Ciri just as much but can choose to think that they should find another way--it's just Yennefer doesn't have that kind of patience because she's a Mama Bear. It's good writing that this has a dark as well as lightside.

I also think that plenty of fans like Yennefer just fine as who she is but have preferences for someone a little softer and less confrontational. It's the classic Morrigan/Leliana choice or Betty and Veronica for an even older example.

Someone nice and down to Earth but kind of boring vs. Someone kind of mean but exciting.

You can like both.

You can also decide that Yennefer isn't the kind of girl Geralt needs because the books were before his death/resurrection and even in them, before Ciri, they had an off and on thing for TWENTY YEARS without it being firmly committed.

Geralt found her a handful and cheated on her as often as she cheated on him.

The game allows you to say, "It's just never going to work out without our kid since she's an adult now--its time to go our separate ways" which is about as realistic a fictional romance as you can get.

The bad elements are not a mistake and neither are the good elements. They're both there and they make her more real.

Yeah, I am speculating at times a bit on aspects of their relationship. I saw the necromancy scene as an act of desperation though perhaps tinged by impatience and perhaps seen through a 'third person omniscient' lens, as we the player could have only really known the limitations that an alternative to the necromancy would provide given that we played the Ciri scene. They could have searched for an alternative way, but given the villagers wouldn't speak of anything having to do with Skjall, combined with the fact that it was only Skjall who saw UMA, it would have been pretty tough, at least in hindsight, to figure out anything regarding that situation. Not to mention the time, but I see your point.

Regarding tastes, I completely agree. This isn't a book and people that like and prefer Triss due to her personality and sweet side is completely understandable. It is also pretty natural for players to take their own prejudices and philosophical perspectives and channel that into their character, even if it is a pre-generated one. I think this is one of the more interesting aspects of gaming as a medium in story telling. I do also see your parallels between Leliana and Morrigan, they definitely share characteristics with Triss/Yen.

I didn't really write my post to show favoritism but more as a means to unravel a complex character. I personally like both characters, at least from the game's perspective. I will have to revisit that when I read the books, but from the game they are both likable and very different and, at least from the game's perspective, really come down to a matter of taste as we have seen in the many posts on this forum.

Thanks for the compliment!

 

[luc0s]

By ties i mean Geralt and Ciri. If Yen is considered a central character because of her ties to the two central characters i don't see how you can dismiss the fact Triss has ties to. She's got ties to witchers of Kaer Morhen, Yen and yes even lodge too as you say just as Yen does.

I can care about both love the games story and plot and pick out the issues i have within it including the perceived sub par treatment of one of my favourite characters.

Triss doesn't really have close ties to Ciri and her ties with Geralt only became close in the games. She doesn't have ties to the Lodge anymore as the Lodge has been disbanded and even before that happened Triss already got kicked out. Besides, Triss has a lot of other stuff on her mind. She's not really in the position to help out Geralt in TW3. She helped him to the best of her abilities, which wasn't very much. She needed Geralt's help more than he needed her's.

Yen is a central character in TW3 for many more reasons than her bond with Geralt and her role as Ciri's caretaker. She's the bridge between Geralt and Emhyr/Nilfgaard, she already did a lot of research and gained information because she knew Ciri is back for a while now and Yen knows Ciri better than anyone (other than Geralt himself) and she's basically like a mother to Ciri.

I honestly don't get how anyone can think Triss got sub-par treatment in TW3. For a side-character she got treated really well, better than most other side-characters. She has hours worth of quests and over 30 minutes worth of romance-related dialogue and cutscenes. Her own little story arc was interesting and Triss herself was really well-written in TW3 with her voice-actor doing an amazing job at bringing the character to life, giving even me a hard time saying goodbye to her at the Novigrad docks before she leaves to Kovir (and that's a huge deal, because I never gave a fuck about Triss in the first two games, so the fact I found it difficult to let her go in TW3 is a big deal).

---------- Updated at 06:19 PM ----------

As if good storytelling relied on slashing Drowners.

Are you serious? Is that your best argument against people who say "this isn't a dating sim"?

Does good storytelling rely on slashing drowners? No, ofcourse not. But good gameplay relies on slashing drowners.

 

[enk1]

I have only one question. Where is Triss Merigold? Shame, that CDPR didn't link broken djihn curse with Triss romance.

 

[wright1978]

Triss doesn't really have close ties to Ciri and her ties with Geralt only became close in the games. She doesn't have ties to the Lodge anymore as the Lodge has been disbanded and even before that happened Triss already got kicked out. Besides, Triss has a lot of other stuff on her mind. She's not really in the position to help out Geralt in TW3. She helped him to the best of her abilities, which wasn't very much. She needed Geralt's help more than he needed her's.

Yen is a central character in TW3 for many more reasons than her bond with Geralt and her role as Ciri's caretaker. She's the bridge between Geralt and Emhyr/Nilfgaard, she already did a lot of research and gained information because she knew Ciri is back for a while now and Yen knows Ciri better than anyone (other than Geralt himself) and she's basically like a mother to Ciri.

I honestly don't get how anyone can think Triss got sub-par treatment in TW3. For a side-character she got treated really well, better than most other side-characters. She has hours worth of quests and over 30 minutes worth of romance-related dialogue and cutscenes. Her own little story arc was interesting and Triss herself was really well-written in TW3 with her voice-actor doing an amazing job at bringing the character to life, giving even me a hard time saying goodbye to her at the Novigrad docks before she leaves to Kovir (and that's a huge deal, because I never gave a fuck about Triss in the first two games, so the fact I found it difficult to let her go in TW3 is a big deal).

---------- Updated at 06:19 PM ----------

.

Well we're playing the games not the books so her close ties to Geralt over 2 games do count. Regarding Ciri, people don't really refer to someone as a sister unless they have a tie to them. She may have left/been kicked out of the lodge but she still has a connection to them by being a part of it for years.

I think it was very sub par post Novigrad. Don't think giving her a good mini arc in Novigrad excuses her sub-par treatment afterwards given her importance as a character within the series. Your free to have a differing opinion as you wish.

 

[Trireme]

There is little room left for doubt when you listen to what she says. I played it again, just to be sure. She does not answer Geralt why she didn't call him, or at least why she didn't contact him. Instead she brings out Triss. Meaning she has a problem with Geralt having strong relationship with Triss. As for the memory loss she directly calls it an "excuse" and says she doesn't want to hear it. There is nothing pragmatic in it. At least not from where I am standing.

In my mind, both ladies are trying to let go of Geralt and move on. Yen hears he's with Triss and decides to build a new life for herself in the Empire, while Triss devotes herself to building a safe haven for mages after Geralt leaves to search for Yen. Triss seems more upset about letting go than Yen, but Yen doesn't let her emotions show as much, so it's hard to tell. With the "Last Wish" quest it seems like Yen is trying to break the cycle with Geralt once and for all- I think she wasn't expecting to still have feelings for Geralt afterwards. Similarly, Triss in "Now or Never" fully expects to say goodbye to Geralt for good. She says "stop by if you want to say goodbye" at the end of her previous quest, and by default is saying farewell at the end.

So the default state of the game seems to be both ladies moving on with their lives without Geralt- he has to make something happen if he wants to change that.

 

[Tangsta]

I am just trying to elucidate her character a bit and show that behind every "bitchy" moment, and behind every "seemingly immoral" act, is a mother's love--plain and simple.

Did I not agree to that? There's really no need for an essay to explain something everyone can already see. You justify her behaviour because she faces hardships? Name a major character in the game that does NOT have any hardships? Yet they can still remain mature and likeable. Nothing you explained about Yennefer is new to me, I can see all that in the game, and fyi, I did choose her as a romance option, hence why I'm even judging. I did the Last Wish quest and I've finished the Kaer Morhen act. She is STILL prickly and I don't see that ever changing. Nor do I want to, since that's obviously her character and it's how it needs to stay because it serves the story better that way.

My problem isn't with how she is, it's with how you're making up all these excuses to classify her as something she's not. You say she's straightforward, yet you point that she's secretive and it was all a 'facade' - that is a contradiction, you're either straightforward or you're not. In the game, there is no mystery, you KNOW what her intentions are. I can see she loves Ciri, which is why it makes sense, but that's more a testament to how adorable Ciri is than Yennefer's 'true' self.

If the pen is red, why call it blue?

No offence, but this image quite adequately sums up your opinion of Yennefer here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iTRZNhZGJkE/TdjpS-44TrI/AAAAAAAAAJg/LS2aJFqLCL0/s1600/english.jpg

They are fire and ice but both enjoy the turbulence and sparks that fly.

Agreed, all I needed was for someone to agree to this. I'm not judging the author for writing her that way or the devs for adapting her to the same intentions - she is an interesting character because of this! Just that people here are saying "no no, she's not 'ice' she's actually lovey dovey water deep down inside, and she likes to 'put on an act', which confuses me when they then say she likes to speak her mind".

 

[msanx]

No offence, but this image quite adequately sums up your opinion of Yennefer here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iTRZNhZGJk...00/english.jpg

Hehe thats true!

 

[dzbrown]

Did I not agree to that? There's really no need for an essay to explain something everyone can already see. You justify her behaviour because she faces hardships? Name a major character in the game that does NOT have any hardships? Yet they can still remain mature and likeable. Nothing you explained about Yennefer is new to me, I can see all that in the game, and fyi, I did choose her as a romance option, hence why I'm even judging. I did the Last Wish quest and I've finished the Kaer Morhen act. She is STILL prickly and I don't see that ever changing. Nor do I want to, since that's obviously her character and it's how it needs to stay because it serves the story better that way.

My problem isn't with how she is, it's with how you're making up all these excuses to classify her as something she's not. You say she's straightforward, yet you point that she's secretive and it was all a 'facade' - that is a contradiction, you're either straightforward or you're not. In the game, there is no mystery, you KNOW what her intentions are. I can see she loves Ciri, which is why it makes sense, but that's more a testament to how adorable Ciri is than Yennefer's 'true' self.

If the pen is red, why call it blue?

No offence, but this image quite adequately sums up your opinion of Yennefer here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iTRZNhZGJkE/TdjpS-44TrI/AAAAAAAAAJg/LS2aJFqLCL0/s1600/english.jpg

I distinctly remember you mentioning it's on us to explain it, putting the 'onus on us' as you said. I tried. I'm sorry that it was inadequate to you. I guess I failed. Also, I never once said she was straightforward, you did. In fact, I said she was the contrary.

 

[Tangsta]

I apologise if it wasn't you, but others here who like her did mention it, which I agreed with. But they contradict themselves by then saying she had ulterior motives. I do thank you for the effort, though.

Let me just rephrase my stance again: I don't like her personality, but I do like her as a character within the context of the story, specifically because she is so different and a stark contrast to the other women in Geralt's life.

 

[Redemyr]

It's funny how Yennefer got 4x times the screentime as Triss, has the mother connection going for her, has all the side-characters save a few honorably exceptions talking about her, has the books fans mostly ravid about her, hell, she even has a fucking song dedicated to her and yet, Triss is still way more popular.

Kudos to CDPR for making such a great character.

 

[keldrath]

In my mind, both ladies are trying to let go of Geralt and move on. Yen hears he's with Triss and decides to build a new life for herself in the Empire, while Triss devotes herself to building a safe haven for mages after Geralt leaves to search for Yen. Triss seems more upset about letting go than Yen, but Yen doesn't let her emotions show as much, so it's hard to tell. With the "Last Wish" quest it seems like Yen is trying to break the cycle with Geralt once and for all- I think she wasn't expecting to still have feelings for Geralt afterwards. Similarly, Triss in "Now or Never" fully expects to say goodbye to Geralt for good. She says "stop by if you want to say goodbye" at the end of her previous quest, and by default is saying farewell at the end.

So the default state of the game seems to be both ladies moving on with their lives without Geralt- he has to make something happen if he wants to change that.

I agree about Triss, but I don't see it that way for Yen.

Yen has no interest in Nilfgaard. Never did, she's merely using them because they can provide her with the resources to find Ciri, that's what is most important to her and why she is working with the Emperor. Because he also wants to find Ciri, so with that shared goal, they work together. She was hurt by what Geralt had did, leaving her for Triss, as that's how it seemed to her, she didn't expect his amnesia to last as long as it did, and on top of that wasn't even sure he even had it in the first place, especially since he had Triss to help with it. She couldn't have expected Triss to decide it was more convenient to her for him to not remember his past and to keep it from him as long as possible. So she keeps looking for Ciri. That's what she was doing while Geralt was having a trist with Triss and getting wrapped up in politics.

 

[Charcharo]

It's funny how Yennefer got 4x times the screentime as Triss, has the mother connection going for her, has all the side-characters save a few honorably exceptions talking about her, has the books fans mostly ravid about her, hell, she even has a fucking song dedicated to her and yet, Triss is still way more popular.

Kudos to CDPR for making such a great character.

For better or worse, Video Games are more popular than books.

This has much to do with the (for reasons unknown to me) falling popularity of books amongst the younger generation. All over the world.

So... really, Triss has the advantage. By default. At least on these (mostly video game) boards.

 

[Gilthoniel]

For better or worse, Video Games are more popular than books.

This has much to do with the (for reasons unknown to me) falling popularity of books amongst the younger generation. All over the world.

So... really, Triss has the advantage. By default. At least on these (mostly video game) boards.

Maybe this will change - the latest update on the offcial Witcher 3 facebook page is:
THE LAST WISH by Andrzej Sapkowski just became a New York Times bestseller! Many thanks for your support, Witcher fans

I'm really glad to read this.

 

[Charcharo]

Maybe this will change - the latest update on the offcial Witcher 3 facebook page is:
THE LAST WISH by Andrzej Sapkowski just became a New York Times bestseller! Many thanks for your support, Witcher fans

I'm really glad to read this.

So am I. Though I wonder whether the translation is good.

Thing is... being number 1 best seller... is impressive. But it is STILL a lot less than a best selling video game

All the books need to be translated well and be there, on the lists for a LOOOOONG time to even hope to equal the games.