They can't make new witchers? (What'd I miss?) *LIKELY CONTAINS SPOILERS*

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They can't make new witchers? (What'd I miss?) *LIKELY CONTAINS SPOILERS*

Short VersionWhy can't they make more witchers after recovering those "stolen secrets?"Long VersionI've seen references on this forum (and maybe the wiki, too, not sure) that imply it's a fact no one can make witchers anymore. There's even one in the game I've seen, end of Act IV, Geralt has the option to tell Alvin there's no one left alive who can make witchers.So my question is, where's the background for this in the game? I haven't read all the books (just what's out in English.) But do they establish this lack of ability to make new witchers in the game?From what I saw in the game:- There are few witchers left around (real witchers, like the guys in the Prologue. I'm not counting the mutant things AJ made.)- Kaer Morhen starts out with a working lab, capable of making new witchers (Leo's in the process.) Vesemir knows how to go about it. Seems like Eskel is fairly well versed on the trials, too.- Salamandra breaks into the lab and steals some crucial elements of the make-a-new-witcher recipe.- All the KM witchers go off to find these stolen secrets.- At the end of the game, Geralt finally gets the stolen secrets back.Now, the game didn't give any more updates on Vesemir after the Prologue, but they never gave me any reason to suspect he'd been killed or lost his know-how. So, I assumed that once Geralt gets the secrets from the GM's body back to Vesemir, Vesemir would be able to make new witchers if he wanted to.The outro movie struck me as implying someone had managed to steal a copy of the secrets before Geralt got them back. And that possible answer to Alvin in Act IV struck me as a "white lie" Geralt might tell the kid, thinking he didn't want to see Alvin go through such a risky, painful process.But I've read various threads here where other folks seem to know for a fact that, in the context of the game's story, there's no way to make witchers at the end. Have I misinterpreted something? Are there more plot points I've missed that explain why no one can make real witchers anymore?Please don't feel the need to refrain from spoilers on my account. I've played through this game several times now, looking for as many tidbits as possible. And I've read the only Witcher book I can get my hands on in the US. No matter how many spoilers I might run across, I'll still read any of the books I can get.Thanks & Cheers,Luny
 
Well, hello Luny.What you point out makes sense. The 'white lie' and no information if the other witchers are dead (however, none that they are not).To my understanding the latter is never answered, and "The Last Wish" neither helps, though it makes sense since it happened before the Game.Alone the fact that Geralt has gotten the bulk of the stolen items back should be enough to make new witchers.Personally I believe that there can be new witchers made, and that the 'white lie' was exactly that; a means to convince Alwin otherwise (though looking at the whole Jaques =? Alwin theories, what would have changed??).
 
So you don't see the game saying there can be no more witchers either? Ok, good to know I'm not the only one!The white lie concept occurred to me on my first time through the game, when I still thought of Alvin as an overall nice little kid who was simply annoying at times ... the way any kid can sometimes be to any adult. At that point, I chose the "no more witchers" option because I didn't want to encourage him to pursue it ... and well, I didn't want to encourage anyone like Julian to assign me the task of training Alvin - I'm a bad-ass monster/salamander/evil-deity-slaying lone warrior guy, not a babysitter.I didn't really consider it again during subsequent games (just tried to avoid/be mean to Alvin where possible.) It was while reading another thread where folks seemed to understand there could be no more witchers that I began wondering where they got that concept. I feel like I missed out on some juicy plot bits somewhere. :( If the "no more witchers" option to Alvin wasn't a white lie, what else in the story makes Geralt know this? I can see how he'd know no one could make witchers until he got the secrets back, but he comes off as having no doubts about getting them back eventually.And Hello! :)
 
it is true. Kaer Morhen was destroyed by mob,lead by wizards. only those witchers who were outside the fortress survived.all the witchers in the game were trained before this happened.creating a withcer is a complicated process. all who knew it, died.Vesemir is just a fencing expert, he knows something about the whole process, but -well - each of us knows something about how a car works,but it doesnt mean each is able to make onein the game Leo is just trained, and on special diet, but he is not a real witcher, he`s not affected by Trials, Changes and other mutations.
 
Are you sure there, ringeck?The way I recalled it is that the only witcher to survive the destruction of Kaer Morhan was Vesemir. Also Lambert (could be Eskel though... The one with the huge scar in the face, I'm unsure which one it is right now) and Geralt were trained by Vesemir as kids.Which would mean that the last witchers Geralt, Eskel and Lambert became witchers either through Vesemir or after the attack.Which would mean that Vesemir does know how to create witchers. Even if that is not true, Vesemir mentions two other witcherfortresses, though communication wasn't been great of late.To me that gives two possibilities:1. Vesemir knows, and therefore Eskel, Lambert and Geralt probaly too.2. One could say it is possible that another witcherfortress still is occupied and someone there has the knowledge to create witchers.
 
From what I've been able to gather myself; Geralt, Eskel and Lambert were trained by Vesemir, but he trained them and other new witchers before Kaer Moren's destruction. Vesemir never knew how to perform the actual mutations. All of the remaining witchers were away from Kaer Moren during the attack and survived, but everyone who knew how to perform the mutations were killed. All Leo could ever have been, had he not been killed, would've been a pseudo-witcher; a person whose skills and abilities are somewhere between a normal human and a real witcher.Don't know anything about the other fortresses though. That's the first I've heard of them (I may have heard Vesemir mention them in the game, but I can't remember).
 
TheSilver said:
Are you sure there, ringeck?The way I recalled it is that the only witcher to survive the destruction of Kaer Morhan was Vesemir. Also Lambert (could be Eskel though... The one with the huge scar in the face, I'm unsure which one it is right now) and Geralt were trained by Vesemir as kids.Which would mean that the last witchers Geralt, Eskel and Lambert became witchers either through Vesemir or after the attack.Which would mean that Vesemir does know how to create witchers. Even if that is not true, Vesemir mentions two other witcherfortresses, though communication wasn't been great of late.To me that gives two possibilities:1. Vesemir knows, and therefore Eskel, Lambert and Geralt probaly too.2. One could say it is possible that another witcherfortress still is occupied and someone there has the knowledge to create witchers.
yes I am sure. perhaps it is not mentioned in the game, but Geralt and others were wandering out, while it happened.the whole idea was launched by some renegade mages. magic was necessary to complete most advanced changes. Geralt undergo even some experimental ones, becouse he was suprisingly tough.as I said, it was a complicated process. Vesemir knew the basics for sure, but was not trained to use most advanced elixirs and viruses. it is also vaguely suggested they tried some experiments after downfall, but most failed.Vesemir remembers some details, because he is very old. the others are relatively young (around 100 according to some world calculations), and others know little about it,the other witcher fortresses and "clans"...this was an idea not very much explored by Sapkowski in his books. ultimately vague i would say.in the comic books based a little bit on Witcher series, it was one of the lead motifs, but it`s just another cup of tea.the game is also based on the witcher, so some things are messy, but not those.
 
ringeck said:
yes I am sure. perhaps it is not mentioned in the game, but Geralt and others were wandering out, while it happened.the whole idea was launched by some renegade mages. magic was necessary to complete most advanced changes. Geralt undergo even some experimental ones, becouse he was suprisingly tough.as I said, it was a complicated process. Vesemir knew the basics for sure, but was not trained to use most advanced elixirs and viruses. it is also vaguely suggested they tried some experiments after downfall, but most failed.Vesemir remembers some details, because he is very old. the others are relatively young (around 100 according to some world calculations), and others know little about it,the other witcher fortresses and "clans"...this was an idea not very much explored by Sapkowski in his books. ultimately vague i would say.in the comic books based a little bit on Witcher series, it was one of the lead motifs, but it`s just another cup of tea.the game is also based on the witcher, so some things are messy, but not those.
I've heard about Geralts additional experiments. I have not heard that magic was needed.Indeed, it would make sense if all witchers were gone at that time.Since nothing like that is really mentioned in "The Last Wish", I can only go by the game. And my memory may deceive me.I was sure it was mentioned that Vesemir was the only suvivor. Which would mean that he 'made' Geralt and the other, ergo knows how to do the full process.Also, the others are about 100? That would mean the ageing is slowed... never heard of that before. But considering that the attack was (I think) about 40 years ago. It does fit together.So Vesemir does not know the full process, which would make sense that Geralt then says they can't make witchers anymore.Except for the other witcherclans. Which are quite vague.A plot for the sequel, perhaps?Anyway, thank you ringeck, for clearing me and my theories up. It did make sense for me though...Thanks.
 
Thanks for all the replies! I'm still not convinced there are enough details in the game to conclude no one can make witchers anymore. Perhaps it's another topic the devs left without hard and fast conclusions, for us to ponder. Or perhaps there's more I've missed and/or I'm incredibly stubborn. :pI can understand if the other books in the saga give more details and people know that way. It'd be nice to find the evidence in the game though.I know the book about the attack on KM (the Monstrum book from the Prologue) adds a journal entry saying, "Those who survived are doomed to extinction since they no longer train successors." I just never interpreted that as meaning "they can't," just that "they don't." As in, "Wow, if people hate us this much, why put any more kids through such an ordeal?"Early in the Prologue, before the fight starts, I think it's Vesemir that says something to Geralt like, "What do you think? Is he ready for the trials?" regarding Leo's sparring practice. To me, that implied they could make Leo into a real witcher if/when they wanted to.There's a conversation Geralt has with Eskel later about Leo and the trials. He asks why Triss couldn't help with the mutation. Eskel tells him it's because they kept the details secret from her, but the conversation never left me with the impression that Eskel thought it was a lost process. He spoke of the trials in the present tense, too, IIRC. If the process was lost, past tense would've better suited the conversation.All that struck me as meaning, for whatever reasons, they weren't rushing into making a lot more witchers - never that they couldn't if they wanted to. It could also be an issue(s) with the English translation (or my English,) I suppose.Oh well, any other info or opinions would be interesting and most appreciated.Cheers
 
There is one fine point that i think has been missed and might clear at least part of this up.Vesemir was staying at Kaer Morhen at the time of the attack, he just happened to be out. This is what gives him the dubious honour of being the only "survivor" of the attack. The other witchers were not based there at that time, but they were around AFAIKUpdate: It is also my understanding that the game was created using some unverified fan data ... Ausir has a couple examples in the wiki. Since then, there has been much information gathered and collated, so there should be fewer little "mistakes" in upcoming games
 
LicensedLuny said:
I know the book about the attack on KM (the Monstrum book from the Prologue) adds a journal entry saying, "Those who survived are doomed to extinction since they no longer train successors." I just never interpreted that as meaning "they can't," just that "they don't." As in, "Wow, if people hate us this much, why put any more kids through such an ordeal?"
books and the game - may differ. and they do. although, the game is made quite to the books. one can`t say this about the comic books, movie and tv series. they are probably the biggest source of "witcher legends".I`d be so bold to be stubborn,too ;) - new witchers cannot be trained anymore. Vesemir is fencing expert. he knows something about the process, mostly because of his age and general experience. witchers still have some magical elixirs, viruses and herbs to conduct some experiments, but just by trial and error. but they cannot make new elixirs, because this requires expert magical skills and knowledge. and they don`t trust magicians anymore. so - it is both by they will and lack of knowledge. they have something that they cannot use by themselves, and they are unwilling to share it to anyone who is clever enough to decipher it. I think that sums up the whole thing in a reasonable way. =)
 
ringeck said:
I`d be so bold to be stubborn,too ;) - new witchers cannot be trained anymore. Vesemir is fencing expert. he knows something about the process, mostly because of his age and general experience. witchers still have some magical elixirs, viruses and herbs to conduct some experiments, but just by trial and error. but they cannot make new elixirs, because this requires expert magical skills and knowledge. and they don`t trust magicians anymore. so - it is both by they will and lack of knowledge. they have something that they cannot use by themselves, and they are unwilling to share it to anyone who is clever enough to decipher it. I think that sums up the whole thing in a reasonable way. =)
Fair enough, what you describe does make sense. I even found a bit in the game just now that I hadn't seen before to support your theory.
In the Prologue, after Geralt has seen the Professor kill Leo, he's stuck in the lab with Vesemir, who won't let him leave until he meditates. Rather than meditating right away, Geralt can run around that room. When he gets close enough to the things on the three sides besides the exit, he'll say a little something to himself. At the alcove area across the room from the garden-ish area, he says, "All that's missing is a mage who knows how to use all this."
Actually, what you describe fits nicely with my theory, too. It's not impossible to make new witchers, but for whatever reasons, they don't anymore. ;) Thank you very much for clearing up the reasons though!Oh, and just now, on what must be at least my fifth time through the Prologue I noticed something VERY interesting - In cutscenes throughout the game, Geralt always has those mutated eyes. During the cutscenes in the Prologue, Lambert, Eskel and Vesemir each have normal eyes with round pupils! Ooooh! (I suspect it's just a little continuity mistake in the game, and not meant to imply those guys aren't real witchers.)And stubborn is just fine! Makes for more interesting discussions and debates as long as it doesn't lead to flame wars. ;)
 
They thing with the pupils is also mentioned in "The Last Wish". However I'm unsure if the "cat" pupils were a side effect (or rather the effect) of a cat potion or if it is Geralt's additional Mutation. But one of those I believe.
 
In The Last Wish, his eyes are always different I think. There's a mention about it when he's convalescing at the Melitele temple with Nenneke - she comes in and opens the window, casting daylight on his face. All he really had to do was narrow his pupils, but he never shook the habit of covering his eyes with his hand. (something to that effect. It was memorable to me because I hate it when people do that in the morning to wake me up. I don't have vertical pupils so I've no choice but to start throwing things at the person by the window.)But during the course of the game, his eyes are always mutated. People seem to recognize he's a witcher because of his eyes, too, like Kalkstein in Act I and Siegfried in Act II. Those encounters implied all witchers have those kind of eyes. Also, in the game, there's no reference to Geralt being extra mutated, is there? I do remember The Last Wish mentioning it, in his "conversation" with Iola and maybe other places.Oh, and in The Last Wish IIRC the see-in-the-dark potion made him really creepy looking because it turned him chalk white and dilated his pupils to the point of his eyes appearing completely black.EDIT - additions belowI did find a couple more references to no more new witchers in the Prologue. I'd seen them before, but it never sunk in until I was watching for them.1) When Geralt asks Vesemir if he defended KM before, Vesemir describes the attack and does say everyone who knew the mutation process died then.2) When Geralt asks Triss about the consequences of the theft after giving her the potion, she says, "Only a master of the archane arts can use that knowledge," referring to the stolen mutagens.So, drat! ringeck was right! ;) Seriously, thanks ringeck! It's nice to finally know where this understanding of Geralt's comes from. Based on the final movie, it seems the process wasn't so completely lost, but now I see why Geralt believes it's lost.FWIW, I saw a few other relevant tidbits in the Prologue to things we've mentioned on this thread.1) Geralt can ask Vesemir if there are other witchers. Vesemir tells him of Berengar (which starts a new quest,) and also mentions there were other witcher fortresses but he hasn't heard from them for some time.2) Vesemir tells Geralt he was the only one at KM during the attack who survived, out of 28 witchers and 40 students, when Geralt asks him if he had defended KM before.3) Vesemir was involved in training Geralt, but it could mean involved in only sword or potion or whatever training rather than involved in mutating Geralt. (from Vesemir's Journal entry in the Characters section.)4) Talking to Eskel about the trials, it seems Geralt and Eskel went through the trials together. Eskel thought he'd gone mad when he saw Geralt's hair turn white. 5) Eskel's explanations of the trials says the third trial mutates the eyes. The context of the discussion implies anyone who goes through it should have mutated eyes, and Eskel's been through it. I think they just forgot to change those characters' eyes.
 
Something I've been wondering: when discussing the trials with Geralt, one thing Lambert mentions is "...we can see in the dark." If so, why the need for Cat's Eye? I can't see a damn thing in some dark places without a torch or a potion. :)
 
gamewidow said:
Vesemir was staying at Kaer Morhen at the time of the attack, he just happened to be out. This is what gives him the dubious honour of being the only "survivor" of the attack. The other witchers were not based there at that time, but they were around AFAIK
I think this is true, if we're talking about the books. The game legends are slightly different. In the EE, Vesemir, when asked how he survived the attack, says that he hid among the dead bodies -- played dead, I suppose.And Ringbeck's right -- they can't make new witchers; at least, the people who are left at Kaer Morhen can't. The possibility is left open that the people at the other two schools can. In order to make new witchers, they don't just need the stuff that was stolen, they need the know-how AND a very strong mage. We're told that the witchers usually used renegade mages to help them, and mages who are 1) trustworthy, 2) very strong, and 3) renegades aren't exactly thick on the ground. Even if the other schools still know how to make witchers, and even if they share those secrets with the Kaer Morhen witchers, the Kaer Morhen guys will need a strong mage before they can make witchers again. From the way Triss talks in the Prologue, it sounds as if she's not able to do it, and we're given to understand (in the game, at least -- I don't know what she's like in the books) that Triss is no wimp.My guess is that they've closed off the possibility of making new witchers for the Kaer Morhen guys as things stand, but they've left open the possibility that they could regain the capability. If CDPR wants a long series, leaving their options open is smart. :)
 
My take on the seeing in the dark comment by lambert is that witchers do (even in the game) have much better night vision than ordinary humans, but they still can't see in pitch darkness such as a crypt, where cat potions are necessary ... it works for me :)
 
gamewidow said:
My take on the seeing in the dark comment by lambert is that witchers do (even in the game) have much better night vision than ordinary humans, but they still can't see in pitch darkness such as a crypt, where cat potions are necessary ... it works for me :)
I've been assuming pretty much the same thing. And if you and I both think it, it has to be true, right? :)
 
TheSilver said:
Also, the others are about 100? That would mean the ageing is slowed... never heard of that before. But considering that the attack was (I think) about 40 years ago. It does fit together.So Vesemir does not know the full process, which would make sense that Geralt then says they can't make witchers anymore.Except for the other witcherclans. Which are quite vague.A plot for the sequel, perhaps?
In the game's character entry for Vesimir, it says that he is very old, possibly older than Caer Morhen. In the entry for Caer Morhen, it says that the fortress has been the headquarters of the witchers "for centuries." Ergo, Vesimir is at least "centuries" old. If witchers are so long-lived it argues that somewhere out there are other witchers who know about the mutation process, even if they can't perform it. Who knows, maybe somebody even wrote something down...something that Azar doesn't have because it wasn't at Caer Morhen when he attacked, either because it was destroyed in the earlier mob attack or was kept at one of the other fortresses.I too think there is a sequel in here somewhere.
 
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