Thoughts on Masquerade Ball (and Nilfgaard in general)

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Hi guys.

I was thinking about NG a lot lately, but my thoughts are quite complex, so I appologize for a bit (over)extensive post.

First, I wanna point out, I'm not a NG hater. In fact it's my second most played faction (because I started with MO) and it's probably the most interesting faction in the game - most demanding as well as most rewarding if playd correctly. And thats fine. So, here are my thoughts.

The most OP deck now is probably the Lined Pockets. And that's why it's probably correct to assume it's gonna be nerfed. Than the NG metabreaker will probably become the strongest and that's why I suppose CDPR is (should be) considering nerfing it as well. But what to nerf exactly?

I can see, many people consider the quad Joachim combo the most problematic. But I have to say, I tried to run it in many decks without the Masquerade Ball (like various Assimilate, Enslave, Imprisonment or Imposter) last and this season and I have to claim, these decks are interesting, but not strong enough by any means. And by strong I mean being widely known (so your opponent knows it and can foresee whats comming) and still be strong enough to be in like tier 1 or 2 at least.

And this leads me to a "heretic" conclusion, that MASQUERADE BALL is actually the card TO BE NERFED - or better say - REWORKED. AND THE REST OF THE FACTION SHOULD BE BUFFED in fact at the same time.

Think about it this way. Putting aside that OP Lockdown / Kolgrim / Mentors "little mistake", literally every competitive NG deck in recent history did have to have the MB included. Seems like it's kinda impossible to build a competitive NG deck without MB. And that's a problem. Because it's not just about including this one card. If you run MB, you kinda autoinclude aristocratic + poison packages as well and these cards also quite determine some other cards. Which means that really competitive NG decks lack variability and thats bad. You don't want the meta to be poor in plurality, because that makes the game boring (like Viy + Lockdown and choose what suits you better). Instead CDPR should aim for more variability, I believe.

The main problem I see with MB is, you can get two instances of poison in one turn. No other faction has a scenario that gives you two same cards, no need to say you are pretty much unable (not totaly - but in most of normal circumstances) to trigger it twice in one turn in other factions as well. I don't want to suggest how to rework this card exactly, or what should be buffed in the rest of the NG faction. I just wanna point out, I believe the MB should be reworked in a way that results in a shift from a state, where there is either a Ball deck or no NG deck in the meta to a state, where there will be like 2 - 3 different ways at least how to build a solid competitive NG deck - with or without the MB. I mean change it in some slightly nerfing way (making it work more similarly to other scenarios), make it cheaper and transform it from a necessary autoinclude into just one of more suitable options.

Also I believe there is no sense in just making MB more expensive as this can end up only in one of these outcomes: either the MB is still affordable to be played, which changes nothing or it's so pricy it's unplayable and than you have just another pointless card in the game.

Also the second part of my suggestion is very important. Competitve NG deck nowadays = MB deck. Nerfing MB = nerfing NG (probably expeling it from meta mostly). And thus it's important to buff the NG faction on the other hand as well. Just make some underrated archetypes in this faction more viable.

What do you guys think? How should be the MB reworked (if actually)? And what NG archetypes would you love to see being treated with some helping hand?
 
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i have the same feeling and was thinking to do a similarity topic.

today MB its a problematic card. No card plays like MB and, as OP said, every competitive NG deck has MB (ok, maybe exclude clogging and mill).

MB should change. I dont think increase the provision cost will do the same, since it cant turns in an unplayable card, but i think they need tho change it. Maybe in trade of the poison guy, maybe can spawn the block/blood unit (cant remmeber the names in inglish). So its still going to buff the thristy dame, you can block or bleed something, but it wont kill it.

Of course, with this change, maybe can cost a little less provision
 
I'm all in for diversity, and if to achieve that a Ball nerf and wide buff for Nilfgaard is what it takes, then I agree with this debate. As well as seeing more cards working in different ways (and NG has a lot of very interesting cards), I assume regular NG players would appreciate the option to run a Ball-less deck every once in a while.

I understand it's very tricky for the dev team to discuss such a complex matter, but it would also make a larger portion of their work come to fruition if players were trying a wider set of cards on a daily basis.
 
This is far from a radical idea. It's obvious that MB is the biggest threat in NG decks, but people have given up on waiting for a reworking of the card. That is why they focus on other power plays (like quadruple Joachim) which fit quite nicely in MB decks.
IMO, NG received way too many buffs in recent times. The number of power plays they have at their disposal, on top of the control options they have, is what makes it so frustrating to play against them.
 
MB is fine it is DeWett within CoupDegrace, what makes EVERY NG deck OP and disgusting to play against

CoupDegrace should not have an echo

DeWett should not be an aristocrat

Also invocation and Cantarella both shall be of 12 provision cost, Double Play shall be reworked

And ofcourse, Henrietta shall have an ORDER
 
And I feel quite dumb, but I just realized that Usurper Emperor is the only evolving card that procs its faction's scenario... While also double-procing the Dame spawned by the scenario. I mean, is that kind of synergy justifiable (fair)?
 
Provision 13/14
Doomed.
Scenario: Progress whenever you play an Aristocrat.
Prologue: Spawn a Thirsty Dame in this row.
Chapter 1: Spawn and play Van Moorlehem Hunter
Chapter 2: Spawn and play Van Moorlehem Servant

Would still be a nice engine with both Thirsty Dame and Servant benefitting from the statuses.
Not sure about the synergies from chapter 2 though, as the Thirsty dame receives a boost only, when an ENEMY unit receives a status.
 
MB is fine it is DeWett within CoupDegrace, what makes EVERY NG deck OP and disgusting to play against

CoupDegrace should not have an echo

DeWett should not be an aristocrat

Also invocation and Cantarella both shall be of 12 provision cost, Double Play shall be reworked

And ofcourse, Henrietta shall have an ORDER
MB is not fine! It is simply too many points from a single card with one effective counter — itself an over-powered, over-played, boring counter to everything. Power creep is slowly helping — but not enough to this point.

ALL echo cards are bad — presently overpowered but inevitably very delicate to balance.

Lore-wise, DeWett IS an aristocrat if ever there was one! And without the truly bad cards like echo cards an scenarios, is not only balanced but is a necessary tool for some NG archetypes.

Cantarella is an essential payoff card for some NG archetypes. Raising provisions to make him less appealing in others might be reasonable, but is not really necessary.

Invocation is a card I think a person has to really play before judging — and I don’t own it to try. It is certainly frustrating at times to play against — especially when I play MO or SK strategies that rely upon deathwish or graveyard (although, honestly, heatwave is worse).

Henrietta is really not a problem. She forces deck builders to consider leader abilities in the context of synergies and not just pointslam — and in that way contributes to the game. On the other hand, she serves the same purpose if her ability is order. Again, I think a person has to truly play her to fairly judge her effectiveness — as an opponent, she is the type card only noticed when she doesn’t brick. Again, I don’t own her to get a balanced perspective.

I think the original poster has nicely analyzed the faction from an objective viewpoint. I might disagree with some particulars, but on the whole, I think the notions are sound.
 
And I feel quite dumb, but I just realized that Usurper Emperor is the only evolving card that procs its faction's scenario... While also double-procing the Dame spawned by the scenario. I mean, is that kind of synergy justifiable (fair)?
On the other hand without synergies Usurper Emperor would be just 12 for 12. Additional points on engines like Thirsty Dame or Seditious Aristocrats need proper setup as any other engine list does. (And I believe that just the spies / agents archetype would actually need some help not nerf in fact.) So if the major problem is triggering the Ball, than we're right back to the theme - shouldn't be the Ball reworked on the first place?
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Lore-wise, DeWett ...
I played all these cards and I must state you pointed out their objective potential very well imo. I understand its very frustrating to see opponent's Canta stealing your most precious card, but at the same time from NG player perspective these cards are really not that "auto-rewarding", can end up points / provisions ineffective or.

Nice point on those echoes cards as well.
 
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Not sure about the synergies from chapter 2 though, as the Thirsty dame receives a boost only, when an ENEMY unit receives a status.

Well Hunter would bring one boost for Thisty Dame and + 1 vitality for servant. One should maybe make sure that Hunter does not trigger servant I currently see.
 
On the other hand without synergies Usurper Emperor would be just 12 for 12. Additional points on engines like Thirsty Dame or Seditious Aristocrats need proper setup as any other engine list does. (And I believe that just the spies / agents archetype would actually need some help not nerf in fact.) So if the major problem is triggering the Ball, than we're right back to the theme - shouldn't be the Ball reworked on the first place?
Every evolving card is a 12 for 12 or less without accounting for engine value/ synergies with other cards. Usurper Emperor is the only one with the added benefit of proc'ing scenario.
 
I absolutely agree with OP and I think about the same a lot aswell. I play since closed beta, I loved NG in open beta, it was my most played faction alongside NR. I took a break from the game shortly after HC launched and came back coincidentally when Merchants of Ofir, which introduced scenarios, got released. So in the beginning I played with Masquerade Ball like I tried every other scenario, but I quickly disliked the poison spam. (Don't like poison in general)
Looking back now, it feels to me like Masquerade Ball broke the entire NG faction. Everything is about this one card. I don't care for pro rank, so I'm always in the rank 1-7'ish bracket and almost every game there against NG is the absolute same. The-absolute-same. It is always about trying to win round 1, always trying to get the ball out round 2 and deny coup/joaquim.
While a lot of people were upset with clog and Kolgrim I was actually okay with them, cuz they don't play MB. Mill? Annoying, but no ball. 6 power Nova enslave? Annoying but no MB.
A streamer I watched said "If you're in the deckbuilder for NG and you're not putting MB in your deck, you're doing it wrong." and I thought he was joking back then. 2 expansions later NG plays the exact same deck with the addition of Usurper and Coup from MM and location from WotW. That is what NG is and I find it sad. I face NG, I don't think "Oh, a fellow NG fan", I think "Netdecking ballscum" (yes yes, I know, other human being on the other side) because the match is gonna play out like they always do since Merchants of Ofir. And if on a rare occasion it isn't a balldeck I can't even send a friendly taunt to acknowledge that because there are no friendly taunts and it would look like I mock him cuz I'm an idiot.
The culmination and where my frustration turned to actualy resignation was the new seasonal that got introduced, where each turn all cards in hand are turned to random cards 1 provision higher. After 2 days I encountered almost exclusively NG players and these would always use the eventual tutors to fish out the ingredients needed for procc*ing their 100 MB. In a seasonal where the idea is (or at least that is how I understood it) that both players make the best out of weird stuff they are handed, NG can't go without procc'ing precious ball. That's how awful that card is (in my opinion).

And like OP said, ironically NG needs better stuff. MB including what's needed around it in my opinion is oppressive, but the rest of NG is not. The soldiers are there, but they don't cut it, they are not enough to consistently threaten anyone! NG SOLDIERS, the all around oppressors in the Witcher universe are wet noodles in Gwent. I really wish for CDPR to do something there, I'm not giving up hope that we will get an actual alternative to the MB and not one where your mindset is "Alright, maybe OP dc's and we win." (exaggerating there but... yeah)
 
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Ball is garbage. I dislike all the scenarios in fact, but MB is really lame. I play NG pretty much exclusively...dabble with NR occasionally, but mainly NG. The biggest problem with NG is that they are necessary only because the rest of the factions are so one-note. You have to have the locks and control to stand a chance because everything else is filling the board with green in no time. I used to love NR now it's all about filling up the board with barfed-out tokens, which is crap. (Side note; bring back Epidemic!!!!)

NG is only good because the rest of the Factions are so fire-and-forget and they have all but completely removed any form of wide punish from the game.

And yes, if a bronze (like epidemic) is able to clear your board, then you need to rethink your strategy :)
 
Every evolving card is a 12 for 12 or less without accounting for engine value/ synergies with other cards. Usurper Emperor is the only one with the added benefit of proc'ing scenario.
Usurper in final for procs The scenario and Also gain One point for each fang is played.

So Ball + Usurper = with 2 cards you have 24 points and One poison.

And, If you use another aristocract you will have more 6 points from serpant (4 body, One for dame - poison - and another for Usurper).

So, with 3 cards you have 30 points + some points for The third aristocract card + 2 poisons.

And everything for 27 provision + The provision from The third aristocract played

So, lets say you play a dame first and than Usurper.

After 3 plays you have.

One dame at 10 points
One dame at 10 points
Usurper at 7 points
Two spy guys, 3 points each
Two serpent, 4 points each.

Total of 41 points + 2 poison and 32 provision.
 
I disagree with Metabreaker/Ball conclusion.

Make a deck with Ball but without Joachim/Location/Canta shit and you will see that it will be barely a tier 2 deck if not a tier 3.

The problem IS with Joachim/Location/Canta. It gives them enough courage to play double Joachim in r1 (tempo+thining as well). Like, imagine you just throwing your 10 provs gold card in r1 without hesitation. Before you had to think twice whether it's a good decision to play your gold aristocrat in r 1. But now, while others looking for some bronzes in round 1, they looking for golds, because Joachim will pull bronzes from a deck! That's why they always found their key gold cards.

However, I agree that Ball is an auto-include card for NG. And I hate it.
It is bad when a deck relies on 1 card, but when the whole faction relies on 1 card it is much worse.
So yes, the devs should buff other NG archetypes like soldiers, tactics.
For example, they reworked False Ciri (aka Isengrim for agents) but there is no NG agent swarm archetype. Make it, CDPR!

But please don't buff Clog/Mill. Actually, I would be happy if they just deleted Clog/Mill and reworked its cards. Because Clog/Mill ironically clogs NG archetype pool.

For those who suggest some silly things like playing Hunter and Servant in Ball chapters. Think about SYNERGY. Yes, synergy.
Giving 1 status and then buffing a unit by vitality is not synergy.
Look at the ST scenario. It synergies with a swarm archetype, with cards like Verno (machine gun), Yaevinn, Gezras, Isengrim.

If you suggest some reworking for Ball, please consider synergy.
 
I disagree with Metabreaker/Ball conclusion.

Make a deck with Ball but without Joachim/Location/Canta shit and you will see that it will be barely a tier 2 deck if not a tier 3.
I agree the strength of the metabreaker comes from more than just one card, the deck works as whole (as a good deck probably should though). I more tried to point out the problem the Masquerade Ball means to NG itself rather than for the meta. The meta could could change easily, the deck could be nerfed anyhow. The thing I wanted to point out is basically what you stated in the rest of your post. Make the rest of the faction more playable, so the player doesn't have to rely on MB for competitive gaming.
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So, lets say you play a dame first and than Usurper.

After 3 plays you have.

One dame at 10 points
One dame at 10 points
Usurper at 7 points
Two spy guys, 3 points each
Two serpent, 4 points each.

Total of 41 points + 2 poison and 32 provision.
I believe it is rather 37 pts in total + 2 poisons for 32 provs, IF they stick and if you run devotion. Dames should get to 8 pts each only (boosting 4 times - twice for fangs, twice for operatives), or am I missing something?
 
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MB is not fine! It is simply too many points from a single card with one effective counter — itself an over-powered, over-played, boring counter to everything. Power creep is slowly helping — but not enough to this point.

ALL echo cards are bad — presently overpowered but inevitably very delicate to balance.

Lore-wise, DeWett IS an aristocrat if ever there was one! And without the truly bad cards like echo cards an scenarios, is not only balanced but is a necessary tool for some NG archetypes.

Cantarella is an essential payoff card for some NG archetypes. Raising provisions to make him less appealing in others might be reasonable, but is not really necessary.

Invocation is a card I think a person has to really play before judging — and I don’t own it to try. It is certainly frustrating at times to play against — especially when I play MO or SK strategies that rely upon deathwish or graveyard (although, honestly, heatwave is worse).

Henrietta is really not a problem. She forces deck builders to consider leader abilities in the context of synergies and not just pointslam — and in that way contributes to the game. On the other hand, she serves the same purpose if her ability is order. Again, I think a person has to truly play her to fairly judge her effectiveness — as an opponent, she is the type card only noticed when she doesn’t brick. Again, I don’t own her to get a balanced perspective.

I think the original poster has nicely analyzed the faction from an objective viewpoint. I might disagree with some particulars, but on the whole, I think the notions are sound.

MB generates 4(+2) + 4 + 4 , what is total 14 + (HP of succesfully poisoned target) (do you mentioned purify and veil before asking for nerf?)

And it is weaker than NR, SY, SK scenarios that generates more points, so the problem is not in MB, but how DeWett triggers double poison, drawing card from deck and boosting it by 8, being played again by CoupDegrace and Gorthur Gvaed

Joachim now plays a little like Amphibious Assault but can play it twice in a round.

Lore - wise, Cantarella, Tibor, Urcheon are also aristocrats, the game's main goal is not being lorewise, but playable
Lore - wise, weather effects, notably frost cant be like "it's just 2 dmg for 3 turns so you can just ignore that you know"


This is how Canta sounds right - "Banish a top card from opponent's deck, create a copy of it and play"
This is how Envoc sounds right - "Banish an enemy unit, create a copy of it and put it on the top of your deck"
This is how DoublePlay sounds right - "Add extra (high provision) gold card from your opponent deck to your hand, it does not take a slot"

So when i play against NG, i know that my 166 (+/-) provisions turns into 140 (+/-), meanwhile enemy NG provision turns into 200 (+/-)

If deploy that affects your leader ability is not OP, then why Damien was nerfed in 6.1?
Henrietta does the same thing in mirror matches, considering that everyone plays double play.
 
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