Triss Merigold of Maribor (All Spoilers) Resurgence

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That desire/bias might explain why Triss choice was initially and pushed late into the game and even once this was corrected it was only half heartedly done, without making even the small dialogue changes to allow reactivity, let alone an UMA inclusion.

The decision to move Now or Never earlier in the story (at least in terms of recommended level, it is still possible to play the quest in the second act) was not necessarily for reasons related to the romances, it is a change that affected 8 quests. Originally, Ugly Baby would have been the last quest in Act 1, and then Act 2 would have had three branches just like the first act, but shorter:

Velen: A Towerful of Mice (q106), Return to Crookback Bog (q107), Forefathers' Eve (q108), For the Advancement of Learning (q109)
Novigrad: Carnal Sins (q308), Now or Never (q309)
Skellige: King's Gambit (q206), Coronation (q208)

These were all main quests and then demoted to lower level secondary quests. The rest of the main quest line would have continued as it does now (The Isle of Mists, The Battle of Kaer Morhen, and so on). Also, Triss had a role in Carnal Sins, which was deleted (perhaps to make it possible to play Carnal Sins after Now or Never), although it may have been a minor role, the details are not known.

However, Yennefer's romance was also changed, but earlier in the development. I have found references to a fact named "q208_yen_lover" in the game files (instead of the usual "sq202_yen_girlfriend", where sq202 is The Last Wish quest), and according to an old leaked document, she would have been in the Skellige branch of Act 2 (King's Gambit and Coronation, the latter is quest q208). That suggests both romance choices would have been later in the game, but Yennefer's was reworked - with a fair amount of effort - with the creation of The Last Wish, deletion from q206 and q208, and modifying Ugly Baby to react to the choice. Now or Never was later moved forward, too, but without updating quests to take the choice into account, maybe because it was too late by then.
 
The decision to move Now or Never earlier in the story (at least in terms of recommended level, it is still possible to play the quest in the second act) was not necessarily for reasons related to the romances, it is a change that affected 8 quests. Originally, Ugly Baby would have been the last quest in Act 1, and then Act 2 would have had three branches just like the first act, but shorter:

Velen: A Towerful of Mice (q106), Return to Crookback Bog (q107), Forefathers' Eve (q108), For the Advancement of Learning (q109)
Novigrad: Carnal Sins (q308), Now or Never (q309)
Skellige: King's Gambit (q206), Coronation (q208)

These were all main quests and then demoted to lower level secondary quests. The rest of the main quest line would have continued as it does now (The Isle of Mists, The Battle of Kaer Morhen, and so on). Also, Triss had a role in Carnal Sins, which was deleted (perhaps to make it possible to play Carnal Sins after Now or Never), although it may have been a minor role, the details are not known.

However, Yennefer's romance was also changed, but earlier in the development. I have found references to a fact named "q208_yen_lover" in the game files (instead of the usual "sq202_yen_girlfriend", where sq202 is The Last Wish quest), and according to an old leaked document, she would have been in the Skellige branch of Act 2 (King's Gambit and Coronation, the latter is quest q208). That suggests both romance choices would have been later in the game, but Yennefer's was reworked - with a fair amount of effort - with the creation of The Last Wish, deletion from q206 and q208, and modifying Ugly Baby to react to the choice. Now or Never was later moved forward, too, but without updating quests to take the choice into account, maybe because it was too late by then.

That's not really true as in act 1 Geralt is made to flirt around Yen, there's a sex scene without a lock in. Can't believe all this was a late addition, even if the time of official lock in was played about with. Don't accept time as an excuse, comes off as an extremely half hearted air residing over that whole branch from start to finish.
 
i feel like a complete idiot asking this, but why does triss look so different in W2 ?
I know that W1 had a other engine.



PS: Man i would love to discuss with u, but sadly my english aint good enough.
I can understand everything but writing on the other hand is very.....
.
 
i feel like a complete idiot asking this, but why does triss look so different in W2 ?
I know that W1 had a other engine.



PS: Man i would love to discuss with u, but sadly my english aint good enough.
I can understand everything but writing on the other hand is very.....
.


An older engine. Older tech.

---------- Updated at 06:11 PM ----------

That's not really true as in act 1 Geralt is made to flirt around Yen, there's a sex scene without a lock in. Can't believe all this was a late addition, even if the time of official lock in was played about with. Don't accept time as an excuse, comes off as an extremely half hearted air residing over that whole branch from start to finish.

It's a free sex scene. It doesn't lock you in to either romance nor does it affect your relationship with Triss if you romance her. It's no strings attached, same as Kiera and Sasha, therefore there is no reason why that and a later romance need be mutually exclusive.
 
An older engine. Older tech.

It's a free sex scene. It doesn't lock you in to either romance nor does it affect your relationship with Triss if you romance her. It's no strings attached, same as Kiera and Sasha, therefore there is no reason why that and a later romance need be mutually exclusive.

It may be a free sex scene just as the auto flirting is free flirting but it helps Yen romance experience without lock in and does nothing to help the Triss romance experience.
 
It may be a free sex scene just as the auto flirting is free flirting but it helps Yen romance experience without lock in and does nothing to help the Triss romance experience.

I know and I agree that it's part of the problem, part of why Yen's romance developers over the course of the game and Triss' does not, but I'm talking specifically about that being a reason why the quest could not be moved. It doesn't prevent that from happening at all.
 
By comparison, Yen gets three times the amount of dialogue in the second half of the game as Triss does. I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest though, it's just that how can you expect to develop a romance when you have such little material dedicated to it? Most of Triss' dialogue appears in the first act meaning it's too unbalanced towards her personal quests and lacks any time dedicated to developing the story of that romance once you're actually in a romance with her. Forget about minor characters thinking you're sharing your bed with Yen, the only way to fix this romance is to give her more screen time in the second half of the game.

Well, it seems they did delete something in the final act, I do not think that "Well?" in Battle Preparations is all that was planned, and based on the names of a few scenes in The Sunstone she could have been in that quest. Also in Carnal Sins with the original design of Act 2, as mentioned before. Two additional quests, even without a major role, would already have been an improvement.

more reddish hair and wrinkly forehead.

They might have overdone those a bit in TW3. But otherwise the TW2 and TW3 models are similar. Also, in TW2, many NPC faces have a similar "style" to others in the same game, so that also explains some of the differences. TW1 is rather different from the two newer games, not just the appearance, but also the voice and even personality.
 
Well, it seems they did delete something in the final act, I do not think that "Well?" in Battle Preparations is all that was planned, and based on the names of a few scenes in The Sunstone she could have been in that quest. Also in Carnal Sins with the original design of Act 2, as mentioned before. Two additional quests, even without a major role, would already have been an improvement.
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I've long argued her involvement in Sunstone. It's the obvious and easiest place to involve her during Act 3. Either way, what was meant to be is a far cry from what we got released and it needs fixing once and for all. She needs more content to bring her romance to the same level of competency as Yennefer's.
 
I know and I agree that it's part of the problem, part of why Yen's romance developers over the course of the game and Triss' does not, but I'm talking specifically about that being a reason why the quest could not be moved. It doesn't prevent that from happening at all.

My point was that Yen romance has build up throughout and that you could move the lock in to any point and it wouldn't really matter a hill of beans(in reference to sv3672's point that Yen's was moved to an earlier point too.) If Triss lock in was moved late and backwards to an earlier point in the plot it would make the lack of reflection at earlier moments make more sense(since you couldn't technically be in a relationship with Triss) but it would be a damning indictment on the halfhearted empty nature in the earlier portion as the empty nature of the reflection was in the final game.
 
My point was that Yen romance has build up throughout and that you could move the lock in to any point and it wouldn't really matter a hill of beans(in reference to sv3672's point that Yen's was moved to an earlier point too.) If Triss lock in was moved late and backwards to an earlier point in the plot it would make the lack of reflection at earlier moments make more sense(since you couldn't technically be in a relationship with Triss) but it would be a damning indictment on the halfhearted empty nature in the earlier portion as the empty nature of the reflection was in the final game.

Then I misunderstood you :)
 
By comparison, Yen gets three times the amount of dialogue in the second half of the game as Triss does. I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest though, it's just that how can you expect to develop a romance when you have such little material dedicated to it? Most of Triss' dialogue appears in the first act meaning it's too unbalanced towards her personal quests and lacks any time dedicated to developing the story of that romance once you're actually in a romance with her. Forget about minor characters thinking you're sharing your bed with Yen, the only way to fix this romance is to give her more screen time in the second half of the game.
Triss can't have as much content in this game as Yennefer because she isn't new character, she has history in first and second games. Want more of her please you are free to re-play those games.
 
I've long argued her involvement in Sunstone. It's the obvious and easiest place to involve her during Act 3.

Yes, and the quests in that stage of the game are mostly short and not very well made, so extra content would be a welcome addition to any of them in general. The Sunstone in particular could make use more of the (mostly empty) elven ruins, include better puzzles, etc., somewhat similarly to The Secrets of Loc Muinne in TW2.

In the earlier parts of the game, it is less obvious where new quest content could be added. Ugly Baby would be ideal, but - even for a hypothetical solution - somewhat unrealistic given that she would only be there for a specific romance choice, so it would be difficult to write her into the (already complete) story of the quest, and for those with a different choice, it would be "wasted" resources. But adding some reactivity to the dialogues in the Skellige quests and Ugly Baby would already have been an improvement.

Another idea is a new quest for example between A Matter of Life and Death and Now or Never, and the recommended level of the latter increased somewhat (for example to 18-19) so that it remains "green" in Act 2, but also still viable in Act 1. The new quest could involve sub-plots like politics (which already require completing Now or Never anyway for the Radovid assassination), the Novigrad underworld, or evacuating the mages; it would better develop the relationship and make it more obvious even before Now or Never that it is a viable choice, maybe add better continuity with the previous games, and it would also be an opportunity to give screen time to characters like the king of beggars or Radovid. Although many people already complain about too many Novigrad quests.

My point was that Yen romance has build up throughout and that you could move the lock in to any point and it wouldn't really matter a hill of beans(in reference to sv3672's point that Yen's was moved to an earlier point too.) If Triss lock in was moved late and backwards to an earlier point in the plot it would make the lack of reflection at earlier moments make more sense(since you couldn't technically be in a relationship with Triss) but it would be a damning indictment on the halfhearted empty nature in the earlier portion as the empty nature of the reflection was in the final game.

Of course, reordering quests does not change the fundamental lack of content or consequences, it is only an explanation (rather than excuse) to some specific aspects of the game.
 
In the earlier parts of the game, it is less obvious where new quest content could be added. Ugly Baby would be ideal, but - even for a hypothetical solution - somewhat unrealistic given that she would only be there for a specific romance choice, so it would be difficult to write her into the (already complete) story of the quest, and for those with a different choice, it would be "wasted" resources. But adding some reactivity to the dialogues in the Skellige quests and Ugly Baby would already have been an improvement.
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Disagree that it would be unrealistic or difficult. Yen invites Triss later in the non romanced path anyway, so i see no reason why she wouldn't overcome her personal disagreements when Ciri's fate is at stake. Having two sorceresses there when doing something exceptionally dangerous, that you haven't done before would make complete sense to me. It would also allow some room for tension between the 3 to be aired prior to ritual and prior to Ciri's arrival. I personally also think anger of actually seeing Triss might make the whole a bed getting thrown out the window before she calmed down seem more understandable than Yen's current reasoning.

Pretty much Kaer Morhen Ugly baby mess is the area i still have to grit my teeth through in TW3.
 
Triss can't have as much content in this game as Yennefer because she isn't new character, she has history in first and second games. Want more of her please you are free to re-play those games.

That argument doesn't wash. First CDPR announced this is a stand alone game. That means past games have no bearing on what comes in this story. By that argument Yen should have zero screen time because she's in the books. If you want more Yen, go read the books. It's a spurious argument at best. Secondly that argument doesn't wash because if you're going to have two romances in the game, both romances need to be of equal quality otherwise they should have left it at one and saved themselves a lot of trouble.



Yes, and the quests in that stage of the game are mostly short and not very well made, so extra content would be a welcome addition to any of them in general. The Sunstone in particular could make use more of the (mostly empty) elven ruins, include better puzzles, etc., somewhat similarly to The Secrets of Loc Muinne in TW2.

In the earlier parts of the game, it is less obvious where new quest content could be added. Ugly Baby would be ideal, but - even for a hypothetical solution - somewhat unrealistic given that she would only be there for a specific romance choice, so it would be difficult to write her into the (already complete) story of the quest, and for those with a different choice, it would be "wasted" resources. But adding some reactivity to the dialogues in the Skellige quests and Ugly Baby would already have been an improvement.

Another idea is a new quest for example between A Matter of Life and Death and Now or Never, and the recommended level of the latter increased somewhat (for example to 18-19) so that it remains "green" in Act 2, but also still viable in Act 1. The new quest could involve sub-plots like politics (which already require completing Now or Never anyway for the Radovid assassination), the Novigrad underworld, or evacuating the mages; it would better develop the relationship and make it more obvious even before Now or Never that it is a viable choice, maybe add better continuity with the previous games, and it would also be an opportunity to give screen time to characters like the king of beggars or Radovid. Although many people already complain about too many Novigrad quests.

In an ideal world she'd be in Act 2 from the start which would provide the much needed and lacking confrontation with Yen over events in the previous game. Unfortunately that would require an extensive re-write of that part of the act, something I can't see them going for. The Sunstone is the obvious place in Act 3 simply because of the three quests in this segment of the game, it's the only one that doesn't involve either Yen or Ciri. For some bizarre reason they chose Philippa to accompany Geralt rather than Triss which would have balanced things out nicely.

Whilst Triss could use a little more characterization for those who haven't read the books or played the previous games, what really needs developing is the romance between her and Geralt and that can only come after the player is actually locked in to a romance with her. It's the interpersonal relationships that are mishandled in this game, rather than (with the exception of Eredin) the characters themselves. That means the majority of any new screen time needs to come in the second half of the game, i.e. Acts 2 and 3. Slipping a couple of extra lines in here and there was never sufficient and doesn't go far enough to redressing the problems with this romance.

As I've said many times before though, the issues this romance faces are symptoms and should not be viewed (or fixed) in isolation. The relationships between key characters is what needs to be addressed, this romance is just part of that.
 
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That argument doesn't wash. First CDPR announced this is a stand alone game. That means past games have no bearing on what comes in this story. By that argument Yen should have zero screen time because she's in the books. If you want more Yen, go read the books. It's a spurious argument at best. Secondly that argument doesn't wash because if you're going to have two romances in the game, both romances need to be of equal quality otherwise they should have left it at one and saved themselves a lot of trouble.
Then why would you even play this game? You want more Triss, read the damn books :) Dev's already said why Triss has less content, she isn't new character. You can't deny this, though I understand if you don't like this explanation.
 
Disagree that it would be unrealistic or difficult.

What I meant is that it would be less attractive to the developers (in the hypothetical scenario where they actually add new content, not that I would bet on it happening) than the other approach, which is also closer to their original design. It is harder to justify major new content when its sole purpose is romance or relationships. But I agree that in the ideal case she would be in Kaer Morhen in Ugly Baby if romanced, as expected from the conversation in Now or Never. Without that, it would not have been expensive to at least explain the delay (like it already is with Keira, even though her personal quest line was also in Act 2, and got moved together with Now or Never), it could even have been something simple like Geralt receiving a letter when arriving at Kaer Morhen under certain conditions (e.g. if Nameless is completed later than Now or Never).

That argument doesn't wash. First CDPR announced this is a stand alone game. That means past games have no bearing on what comes in this story.

Even if it was not stand-alone, the argument would not make sense anyway, and it is not something that is used with the intention of having a constructive discussion (that is why I do not bother responding to such posts). Is the treatment of Eredin in Witcher 3 OK because he was already in the first game ? Bad content is bad content, regardless of what was in the previous games, it is something that makes the quality of TW3 worse.

The Sunstone is the obvious place in Act 3 simply because of the three quests in this segment of the game, it's the only one that doesn't involve either Yen or Ciri. For some bizarre reason they chose Philippa to accompany Geralt rather than Triss which would have balanced things out nicely.

It might have something to do with that deleted Lodge sub-quest near the end of the game, perhaps that is why they wanted to develop Philippa's character more, even though in the final version of the game her role is not much different from that of Fringilla and Margarita. Or it is just how the game ended up like, it shipped with whatever content happened to be finished. It would have been interesting to have both Triss and Philippa in The Sunstone, even if the quest was not actually planned that way.

As I've said many times before though, the issues this romance faces are symptoms and should not be viewed (or fixed) in isolation. The relationships between key characters is what needs to be addressed, this romance is just part of that.

Yes, there are a few other complaints about the game that are probably relevant here:

Why the main narrative in the last third of the game is a bad hot mess [major spoilers!!!]
Analysis: With Witcher 3 CDPR no longer treat the players like adults [SPOILERS]
[SPOILERS] The lack of Witcher 2 decisions and content in The Witcher 3.
 
The thing that always got me about Triss being absent from Ugly baby, was it was the perfect place to deal with the Triss, Yen, Geralt love triangle situation, regardless of whom you romance in the game. Irrespective of which choice you make in the game, the natural reaction for Yen is to be hopping mad at Triss for sleeping with her boyfriend yet whilst Yen has it out with Geralt over the events of sleeping with her friend, Yen and Triss act like best mates throughout the game, as if nothing ever happened. The way they act contradicts their own story.

Unfortunately it's probably too late to fix the main game, with it being too much of a mess to fix without significant investment in to re-writing the muddled writing in its second half. As broken as the writing is, as much as we fans and customers want it fixed, Red aren't going to invest time and money fixing the issues without a return on that investment. A more profitable alternative might just be to release a third Expansion that addresses some of the problems with the lack of personal and interpersonal relationships between major characters were any investment can be recouped through its sales.
 
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