Triss Merigold of Maribor (All Spoilers) Resurgence

[calasade]

I've just explained how TW2 didn't acknowledge any particular moment as the "Triss romance lock-in". Those decisions you've made didn't even mattered in TW2. Geralt's relationship with her was railroaded from the very beginning to the end, there was no choice involved, there was no alternate path for Geralt who doesn't want to be with her. With that in mind, everyone, not just you, finished TW2 in the same place regarding the relationship with Triss.

Right. They ended the game the same way they started. In a relationship. The "lock-in moment" was the first moment of TW 2 when he wakes up beside her. Things like the Rose of Remembrance and being given the opportunity to prioritize Triss at the end of TW 2 only served to cement the lock-in. The fact decisions made in TW 2 were not reflected within it. How does that help the case of CDPR after they claimed decisions mattered? Those mistakes getting repeated in TW 3 do not excuse but worsen them in nature by repetition alone.

You know, I would have no problem with the nullification between the games and the ignoring of choices made within a particular game except for one teeny, tiny caveat of a detail.

The Witcher games are classified and marketed as role-playing.

Taken from thewitcher.com:

The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt is a story-driven, next-generation open world role-playing game set in a visually stunning fantasy universe full of meaningful choices and impactful consequences.

I'll not argue with visually stunning or open world, but with the rest, yeah, I have a T-Rex sized thigh bone to pick.

 

[sv3672]

Then pray tell exactly what CDPR meant when they said, "Decisions matter." If it were just some decisions, perhaps they should have listed those so we as gamers would know which decisions to fluff off.

The decision to rescue Triss or Saskia/Anais instead is definitely recognized by the game, it just does not respond to it in a particularly meaningful way. Regarding the others, like giving the rose or not in Chapter 1, I do not know if those set any facts in TW2 that could in theory be imported into TW3, I need to check that.

 

[Garrison72]

I've just explained how TW2 didn't acknowledge any particular moment as the "Triss romance lock-in". Those decisions you've made didn't even mattered in TW2. Geralt's relationship with her was railroaded from the very beginning to the end, there was no choice involved, there was no alternate path for Geralt who doesn't want to be with her. With that in mind, everyone, not just you, finished TW2 in the same place regarding the relationship with Triss.

They weren't meant to be locked in during the events of TW2 because Geralt had to find Yen first. I won't be bothered to post vids, but the language is clear: you're telling her once the dust settles, you'll choose her. This is after you've had a chance to dip your diddle in everything that moves, so you're hardly railroaded.

 

[Guest 3847602]

You're telling her once the dust settles, you'll choose her. This is after you've had a chance to dip your diddle in everything that moves, so you're hardly railroaded.

Again, that dialogue is not dependent on sex, rose of remembrance, or anything else. And again, saying that he doesn't want to lose her doesn't change anything between them for the rest of the game. Their relationship proceeds the same way even if you say you'll catch the kingslayer and get out of the bathhouse as soon as possible. When you go to rescue her from Nilfgaardinas you'll get the same dialogue options to explain why are you doing it, regardless of what you said at the bathhouse. Therefore - it didn't mean "once the dust settles, you'll choose her". Relationship with her was railroaded since there was no possibility of break-up.

 

[saladin1701]

Again, that dialogue is not dependent on sex, rose of remembrance, or anything else. And again, saying that he doesn't want to lose her doesn't change anything between them for the rest of the game. Their relationship proceeds the same way even if you say you'll catch the kingslayer and get out of the bathhouse as soon as possible. When you go to rescue her from Nilfgaardinas you'll get the same dialogue options to explain why are you doing it, regardless of what you said at the bathhouse. Therefore - it didn't mean "once the dust settles, you'll choose her". Relationship with her was railroaded since there was no possibility of break-up.

Not entirely convinced of that. You do have the option to not rescue her. I'm also fairly certain (but I could be wrong) you have the option to tell her you want to search for Yen alone, either of which are effectively a break up. Regardless, comparing the romance with Triss in the third game to the romance with her in the second isn't helpful when the disparity lies within the same game, not within the franchise.

No one is saying there needs to be any negative alterations to the story in Yen's romance, on the contrary, I think there are small improvements that should be made to that (chiefly a lack of context for her condescension if you haven't read the books), it's simply that that romance grows across the game were as Triss' is reduced to two quests. As I said before, it's a mini-game that unlocks a sex scene. It isn't unreasonable to suggest that to improve it, she get more screen time to allow the story to be unveiled more organically, especially if you're a player new to the franchise and so have no knowledge of events from previous games.

 

[Guest 3847602]

You do have the option to not rescue her.

Yes, but there in no evidence that the game recognizes this choice as the automatic break-up (especially in Iorveth path it could mean that Geralt decided to do something for "the greater good", not that he got sick of Triss. As I said (several times already), even if you rescue her, it could be for the reasons other than love.

I'm also fairly certain (but I could be wrong) you have the option to tell her you want to search for Yen alone, either of which are effectively a break up.

The dialogue options you get when Triss says she's prepared to drop everything and search for Yennefer with Geralt (you don't need to give her the rose or to have sex for her to say this) are:

1) I don't want to lose you
2) I'll catch the kingslayer before you finish your preparations

As you see - the 2nd option doesn't imply the break-up with her at all.

No one is saying there needs to be any negative alterations to the story in Yen's romance, on the contrary, I think there are small improvements that should be made to that (chiefly a lack of context for her condescension if you haven't read the books), it's simply that that romance grows across the game were as Triss' is reduced to two quests. As I said before, it's a mini-game that unlocks a sex scene. It isn't unreasonable to suggest that to improve it, she get more screen time to allow the story to be unveiled more organically, especially if you're a player new to the franchise and so have no knowledge of events from previous games.

I don't dispute that Triss was treated badly in TW3 (character rewrite and the transformation into a boring cutesy, non-importance after Novigrad, non-involvement in the politics). I'm just explaining that the developers, even if they wanted, couldn't pinpoint any particular conversation in TW2 as the moment you've locked yourself into Triss romance since nothing you say matters the next time you talk to her, nor is there a possibility to end the relationship with her in that game.

 

[saladin1701]

1. The inference is explicit. They don't need to put it on a big sign saying "Break up!". Therefore you're not railroaded in to anything.
2. That dialogue is post-sex scene, a sex scene you're not forced to undertake. Again, if you don't do the bathhouse scene the inference is clear, it's a break up.
3. The issue is not of maltreatment, it's of inconsistent writing. What writing there is is great and on par with Yen, it's simply too centered on those two quests. One romance develops over the course of the game. The other starts with a forced break up because of a lack of save import and is further reduced to two quests to unlock a sex scene.

Look at the way it works:

Prologue - wake up with Yen, flirt with Yen.
Prologue - Meet Yen in White Orchard, flirt with Yen.
Prologue - Meet up with Yen in Vizima, flirt with Yen.
Act 1 - Meet Yen in Skellige, flirt with Yen, sleep with Yen.
Act 1 - Yen's personal quest in Skellige, reaffirm your romance with her.
Act 2 - Meet Yen in Kaer Morhen, flirt with Yen, sleep with Yen.
Act 3 - Continue flirting with Yen.

Compared to Triss which is:

Prologue - Wake up with Yen? WTF? I'm in a romance with Triss!
Act 1 - Meet Triss in Novigrad, get the cold shoulder? Err, when did we split up?
Act 1 - Go the party with Triss, end up with blue balls!
Act 1 - Finally re-affirm a romance you where already in when you finished the last game.
Act 1 - Sleep with Triss, agree to meet at Kaer Morhen.
Act 2 - WTF is Triss? More Blue balls.
Act 2 - Post-battle. Blue balls again. She's off to Novigrad.
Act 3 - Decide to settle down, never flirt with Triss. Everyone still thinks I'm seeing Yen. Still got giant blue balls.

The difference is stark for those who romanced her in the previous game. It's imbalanced for those who TW3 is their first Witcher game. So again, I ask you. What's so wrong with asking that Triss be treated as an equally viable love interest as Yen when it comes to the story telling? Not more, not less, just equal.

 

[sv3672]

They weren't meant to be locked in during the events of TW2 because Geralt had to find Yen first. I won't be bothered to post vids, but the language is clear: you're telling her once the dust settles, you'll choose her. This is after you've had a chance to dip your diddle in everything that moves, so you're hardly railroaded.

All the relevant dialogue (TW2 and TW3) can be found in this older post.

Not entirely convinced of that. You do have the option to not rescue her. I'm also fairly certain (but I could be wrong) you have the option to tell her you want to search for Yen alone, either of which are effectively a break up.

In my opinion, TW2 does allow one to role play either way (broken up or not) after the prologue, there are definitely dialogue choices throughout the game that reflect that. Perhaps the most significant one is giving the rose or not. However, many of those may not actually set facts that are stored in the save file and thus can be imported into TW3. Importing the other choices could also have been possible, but it would have required patching TW2 first. So far, I found these: q104_triss_proposition_accepted, q104_triss_proposition_refused (in the Rose of Remembrance (= q104) quest), and q308_triss_saved. The actual save import in TW3 only uses the last one for some minor consequences (none of which affect interaction with Triss).

 

[Guest 3847602]

In my opinion, TW2 does allow one to role play either way (broken up or not) after the prologue, there are definitely dialogue choices throughout the game that reflect that. Perhaps the most significant one is giving the rose or not. However, many of those may not actually set facts that are stored in the save file and thus can be imported into TW3. Importing the other choices could also have been possible, but it would have required patching TW2 first. So far, I found these: q104_triss_proposition_accepted, q104_triss_proposition_refused (in the Rose of Remembrance (= q104) quest), and q308_triss_saved. The actual save import in TW3 only uses the last one for some minor consequences (none of which affect interaction with Triss).

"q104_triss_proposition_accepted" and "q104_triss_proposition_refused" facts are very likely related to her proposition to go your way and leave chasing Letho to Roche (that decision actually affects Triss journal entry, unlike the rose of remembrance and sex)
Speaking of Triss journal entry, it's another evidence of Geralt not breaking-up with her no matter what choices players are making in the game. Not a single word indicates they're not together anymore.
But, thank you for getting what I'm repeating over the last two pages: TW2 doesn't create facts for the outcome of those choices, it doesn't recognize any of them as "Triss romance lock-in decisions", therefore it's not something that can possibly be imported in TW3 (not without patching TW2). So, the problem lies within the 2nd game, not the 3rd.

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

But, thank you for getting what I'm repeating over the last two pages: TW2 doesn't create facts for the outcome of those choices, it doesn't recognize any of them as "Triss romance lock-in decisions", therefore it's not something that can possibly be imported in TW3 (not without patching TW2). So, the problem lies within the 2nd game, not the 3rd.

It can be solved in TW3. Like a flashback, that shows Geralt's break-up dialogue with Triss between TW2 and TW3. And according to selected lines during this conversation - things can go differently, when Geralt meets Triss again.

 

[Guest 3847602]

It can be solved in TW3. Like a flashback, that shows Geralt's break-up dialogue with Triss between TW2 and TW3. And according to selected lines during this conversation - things can go differently, when Geralt meets Triss again.

Yeah, it can be solved, it wouldn't even need a flashback, they could've done something similar as they did with Shani in HoS. But, my point was about whether TW3 ignored the player's decisions from TW2 and whether those decisions were reflected within TW2 itself

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

But, my point was about whether TW3 ignored the player's decisions from TW2 and whether those decisions were reflected within TW2 itself

I agree that TW2 simply doesn't put any restrictions. (As TW3 tbh). Geralt could say to Ves, that there is nothing serious between him and Triss, didn't give rose to Triss, didn't have sex with her, responded to Renuald, that they are close and automatically responded to Triss, that he will slaughter half of Nilfgaard army for a friend. (lmao). So if player wants to create mess - he can, game will even help him.
That's why in think in TW3, during prologue, or near, there should be possibility to reach some logical point about this situation, before Geralt meets Triss again.

 

[Guest 3847602]

That's why in think in TW3, during prologue, or near, there should be possibility to reach some logical point about this situation, before Geralt meets Triss again.

Be careful what you wish for, looking at how the writing often goes in the similar scenes in TW3, the choice could have been between:

1) Sorry Triss, but the amnesia is gone for me
2) I love you, durinbeforafta

Seriously though, I wouldn't mind having 2 variations of the start of Novigrad chapter, but it seems it was too complicated to properly implement in the game.

 

[Garrison72]

. I'm just explaining that the developers, even if they wanted, couldn't pinpoint any particular conversation in TW2 as the moment you've locked yourself into Triss romance since nothing you say matters the next time you talk to her, nor is there a possibility to end the relationship with her in that game.

The conversations I listed worked for me. The fact the rest of the game plays out more or less the same simply means she had prominent role to play no matter their present feelings. At any rate, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

Be careful what you wish for, looking at how the writing often goes in the similar scenes in TW3, the choice could have been between:

1) Sorry Triss, but the amnesia is gone for me
2) I love you, durinbeforafta

Seriously though, I wouldn't mind having 2 variations of the start of Novigrad chapter, but it seems it was too complicated to properly implement in the game.

There is no need to create absolutely new quests or situations to save immersion of players decisions. (But they are welcome, of course ). Change several dialogues and facials expressions of the characters during them, like an example. Geralt could do same things, but absolutely with another motivation.
I agree about some flaws of the dialogues from 1.10. I personally like banter before final battle and with Ciri. I am grateful for the attention of the developers regarding players' request. And I'm sure that they should be implemented earlier. Other new dialogues (with Triss), probably - excess, I'm gladly trade them for more politics in game, imo. Initially, I though: "If they fixed it like that, maybe, let this theme die, already", but later: "Damn, mistakes and flaws are not something, that should stop developers from trying to do something better".

REDs said, that:

The biggest issue that we as a team identified with the Triss situation is that the current implementation does not really represent the very core design philosophy we hold dear. Namely, that your choices carry consequences and those consequences WILL present themselves to you.

But what we have from our previous choices, concerning Triss? Rose? Yes. No matter what: Geralt gave rose to Triss or not - rose, always, will be present in TW3. (Correct me if I wrong). Always dry. And always doesn't affect anything. That's all. This hardly correlates with statement above.

Spoiler

:teeth:

I don't know, if these sporadic talks about Triss and other things in another threads will bring something new and positive to the game in future, but, at least, I hope that REDs will consider these "slips" and will try to avoid them in future projects.

 

[sv3672]

I agree about some flaws of the dialogues from 1.10. I personally like banter before final battle and with Ciri. I am grateful for the attention of the developers regarding players' request. And I'm sure that they should be implemented earlier. Other new dialogues (with Triss), probably - excess, I'm gladly trade them for more politics in game, imo.

It would be possible (in theory) to have both in new or expanded quest(s). The same applies to the general lack of quest content in the third act, especially starting from Battle Preparations. The best use of resources is to solve more than one problem with the same content. Regarding the patch, there are more or less enough "romance dialogues" now, although the quality of some of the additions could have been better (notably the new default dialogues and the Kaer Morhen scene).

REDs said, that:

But what we have from our previous choices, concerning Triss? Rose? Yes. No matter what: Geralt gave rose to Triss or not - rose, always, will be present in TW3. (Correct me if I wrong). Always dry. And always doesn't affect anything. That's all. This hardly correlates with statement above.

Well, it is not like they really fixed the choice in TW3 itself, either. There is still no reaction whatsoever to the Triss choice between Now or Never and The Battle of Kaer Morhen, and that is very disappointing for those who complete Now or Never before going to Skellige (as the quest levels suggest, i.e. typical for a new player).

I know it was different during the development of the game, and that Now or Never was intended to be after Ugly Baby, but it was changed before the release, and completely ignoring a choice like that for such a long time (all the Skellige quest line and Ugly Baby, with about 63% of the Yennefer content in the game, and the related conversations and forced flirting) is disappointing from developers that take pride in even seemingly inconsequential choices mattering later in the game.

And even after The Isle of Mists, the reactions to the choice are kind of patchy and inconsistent, and in any case it never matters in a really meaningful way (other than for the different ending). Also, if I recall correctly, there are still "goofs" where a Yennefer romance is suggested by dialogues or other interaction despite breaking up.

I don't know, if these sporadic talks about Triss and other things in another threads will bring something new and positive to the game in future, but, at least, I hope that REDs will consider these "slips" and will try to avoid them in future projects.

It is probably an issue of managing the resources and the overall narrative of the game mostly, especially with TW3 being the first open world game by CDPR, and a very ambitious one in the initial plans; perhaps it might have been better to stick with the formula from the prequels, and make the switch only in Cyberpunk.

 

[saladin1701]

"q104_triss_proposition_accepted" and "q104_triss_proposition_refused" facts are very likely related to her proposition to go your way and leave chasing Letho to Roche (that decision actually affects Triss journal entry, unlike the rose of remembrance and sex)
Speaking of Triss journal entry, it's another evidence of Geralt not breaking-up with her no matter what choices players are making in the game. Not a single word indicates they're not together anymore.
But, thank you for getting what I'm repeating over the last two pages: TW2 doesn't create facts for the outcome of those choices, it doesn't recognize any of them as "Triss romance lock-in decisions", therefore it's not something that can possibly be imported in TW3 (not without patching TW2). So, the problem lies within the 2nd game, not the 3rd.

Come on mate, read between the lines. Authors don't have to put every single thing in either narrative or dialogue, they expect you to put two and two together sometimes. You'd have to be a complete loon to still want to be in a relationship with someone who A) says they want to go find their ex-girlfriend on their own and B) leaves you in the torture chamber to rot. If they don't result in a breakup nothing will!

 

[calasade]

"q104_triss_proposition_accepted" and "q104_triss_proposition_refused" facts are very likely related to her proposition to go your way and leave chasing Letho to Roche (that decision actually affects Triss journal entry, unlike the rose of remembrance and sex)
Speaking of Triss journal entry, it's another evidence of Geralt not breaking-up with her no matter what choices players are making in the game. Not a single word indicates they're not together anymore.
But, thank you for getting what I'm repeating over the last two pages: TW2 doesn't create facts for the outcome of those choices, it doesn't recognize any of them as "Triss romance lock-in decisions", therefore it's not something that can possibly be imported in TW3 (not without patching TW2). So, the problem lies within the 2nd game, not the 3rd.

Then this is especially horrible planning on CDPR's part because they knew there would be a sequel to 2 when they developed 2., so doesn't really matter how you slice this. Not one iota. Still the third game pays, one that is already inferior now made to look worse because of...what, what ill-fated logic could there be for missing something so fundamental? Don't know to be honest. Certainly doesn't weaken my stance of refusing to buy any further "RPG" games from CDPR. Perhaps any games period.

As for fixing the issue of 2 not flagging the aforementioned, those missing flags can be fixed in an EE for 3 through 2's flags where it's possible to infer Triss's importance to Geralt and reflect those in 3 (you know, after they fix 3 and have it actually reflect choices made within the context of its own story). Easier and better, though, to simply have a patched import that asks the gamer a couple of questions. Basically, whatever they can do to expand upon 3's role-playing opportunities and fix broken continuity would be an improvement.

But then you're looking at rewriting a whole lot of content, which would be glorious because the writing in 3 is about as solid as putty, but yeah, admittedly, I can't see any of that happening.

 

[Charcharo]

The core philosophy of the Witcher is never coming back. Gamers do not want choices and consequences. They want choices with somewhat differing content. At most consequences should never be challenging or personal or in any way "personally hard" for the gamer.

It is how it is. My hopes for Cyberpunk are low.

Do not expect any changes people. I hope I am wrong for your sake, but... probably nothing will happen. The mainstream gaming press is not very adept (at anything really) so they cant level too much critique here. As far as CDPR thinks, they are the best right now (and in many ways they are... but not writing, nor characters).

 

[saladin1701]

The core philosophy of the Witcher is never coming back. Gamers do not want choices and consequences. They want choices with somewhat differing content. At most consequences should never be challenging or personal or in any way "personally hard" for the gamer.

It is how it is. My hopes for Cyberpunk are low.

Do not expect any changes people. I hope I am wrong for your sake, but... probably nothing will happen. The mainstream gaming press is not very adept (at anything really) so they cant level too much critique here. As far as CDPR thinks, they are the best right now (and in many ways they are... but not writing, nor characters).

A rather pessimistic view, don't you think? I believe CDPR very much is interested in what we think and if they have the slightest bit of business sense, which they clearly have, do not believe they're the 'big I am' right now. They are most likely reading this forum, taking notes from the best threads, and, once the expansion is finished, I should imagine will have discussions internally if not about what future content, if any, to provide to this game but their future direction as a company. Rather than complaining that they've become some egotistical, maniacal corporate, lay out your concerns and ideas in a coherent manner. You never know, they might just listen.