Triss vs Yennefer [NOW WITH SPOILERS. Oh, well.]

[keldrath]

Except you didn't provide a single example.

There's dozens of examples throughout the books. She saves Dandelion, Sacrifices herself to try and rescue Ciri, knowing full well it's probably suicide, and that her name wont be cleared or Geralt rescued, and endures months of torture because of it, she uses every ounce of vital energy she has trying to revive Geralt. None of which was done for herself, but to aid the people she cares about, without a care for her own well being. Also constantly bankrolling Geralt so he doesn't need to sleep under the stars.

She's a protective and loving mother who puts her family above all others including herself.

and you just try to make her out to be some cold bitch who cares about nothing besides herself and her own advancement. She doesn't even care about her own advancement. She only wants to care for her loved ones.

 

[Charcharo]

I wouldn't call it naivety. Philippa is a mastermind manipulator and Triss considers her a mentor. I wouldn't call following advices of your mentor a naivety. You may argue about moral image of Phillipa but you cannot deny that she's one of the most skilled sorceress existing. Therefore Triss listening to Philippa's advice is justified.
And Triss is infertile not because she's too old. See replies by others, they pretty much explained it all.

---------- Updated at 03:41 AM ----------


Except you didn't provide a single example. Altruism is a not a doing something good for other people but doing those good deeds without expecting anything in return, so helping Geralt doesn't count because she scores points in his eyes by helping him since she's attracted to him.

Here's an example what is not altruism:
- A psychopath can make a large donation to charity. But it's not altruistic because such donation will be definitely made public and known to everyone so a lot of people will see the act of generosity. It serves as an advertisement, not as a desire to help poor. The altruistic act would be to make such donation incognito, without publicity. Psychopaths will consider incognito donations stupid.
- A psychopath can save someone from death or injury, even if some reasonable risk is involved, if he wants to impress a girl, for instance. The difference with the altruism is that the psychopath won't do it if nobody's watching him.
- A psychopath will be the best buddy and friend of anybody higher on the hierarchical ladder of power and will be helping them with a zeal. But it's not altruism because this way they score points with more powerful people in the hope to gain their favors and get a shear of power themselves.

- Not applicable. None ever know that Yen is giving Geralt money. Except Ciri. But it is to be kept a secret. Geralt does NOT know that...
- Not logical. Even if there were witnesses, she was already hated. Wont do a thing. 100 years of that shit would teach her that.
- Almost all of Geralt's friends are lower on the "social ladder" than her.

 

[Maerd]

- Not applicable. None ever know that Yen is giving Geralt money. Except Ciri. But it is to be kept a secret. Geralt does NOT know that...
- Not logical. Even if there were witnesses, she was already hated. Wont do a thing. 100 years of that shit would teach her that.
- Almost all of Geralt's friends are lower on the "social ladder" than her.

- As I said, helping Geralt doesn't count because she has a romantic interest in him. Giving him money openly would have pissed him off thus loosing her points. If you find me where in the books she secretly helped a struggling poor farmer who was nobody to her then you'll have a point.
- Again, she was helping Geraltl, not somebody she has no direct interest in. Helping Ciri also has a great potential because she has a supre-duper magic abilities after which half of the world powers are chasing. And since they are all bounded by destiny she actually were helping herself too in an indirect way. Therefore no, not altruism still.
- True, and I don't remember when Yennefer ever helped Geralt's friends out of a kind heart.

The only altruistic act in the books was to give her life trying to save Geralt at the end but I cannot accept it seriously because Sapkowski in some interview said that he was tired of the series and decided to kill main characters to avoid writing another sequel.

Just not to answer to every fanboy here the same things many times: The example of altruism will count when you find a description (it would be awesome if with citation, or at least a page and the book (probably won't work because of the language differences...)) when Yen helped to somebody who is not Geralt , who is a romantic interest therefore she has a gain from helping him, nor to someone helping whom can score some points from Geralt, and not a royalty, nor another Lodge member, nor other mages, nor other high ranking individuals (since its a potential gain in the future). Argument your answers and examples, please.

 

[Ganen]

overpraising a character while downgrading another really is a futile endeavor guys...
both women have significant character boons and character flaws, you will better enjoy the characters if you don't look at them one sidedely, you like one's traits more than the other? can live with one's flaws more than the other? fine, thats awesome, why not leave it at that?

you could make a list of "pros and cons" for both characters with plenty to fill in both rows...

Yen is Callous, ruthless, at times even cruel, manipulative did things as terrible as wanting to kill dragons (they are like people in witcher lore) just so she could try to cure her infertility and did as awesome things as sacrifice herself for Geralt and Ciri.
Triss is naive, manipulative, jealous did things as terrible as being submissive even compliant of Lodge schemes that ironically caused all the mage problems that transpired during the games that they were fighting against and things as wonderful as sacrifice herself for Geralt and Ciri and other mages/friends.

 

[Charcharo]

- As I said, helping Geralt doesn't count because she has a romantic interest in him. Giving him money openly would have pissed him off thus loosing her points. If you find me where in the books she secretly helped a struggling poor farmer who was nobody to her then you'll have a point.
- Again, she was helping Geraltl, not somebody she has no direct interest in. Helping Ciri also has a great potential because she has a supre-duper magic abilities after which half of the world powers are chasing. And since they are all bounded by destiny she actually were helping herself too in an indirect way. Therefore no, not altruism still.
- True, and I don't remember when Yennefer ever helped Geralt's friends out of a kind heart.

The only altruistic act in the books was to give her life trying to save Geralt at the end but I cannot accept it seriously because Sapkowski in some interview said that he was tired of the series and decided to kill main characters to avoid writing another sequel.

Just not to answer to every fanboy here the same things many times: The example of altruism will count when you find a description (it would be awesome if with citation, or at least a page and the book (probably won't work because of the language differences...)) when Yen helped to somebody who is not Geralt , who is a romantic interest therefore she has a gain from helping him, nor to someone helping whom can score some points from Geralt, and not a royalty, nor another Lodge member, nor other mages, nor other high ranking individuals (since its a potential gain in the future). Argument your answers and examples, please.

Giving him enough to survive even after he ran away from her? Sure... logical...
Not what I would do.

She helps a village woman giving birth.
She saves Dandelion's life.

Your logic basically means that EVERY single person in the Witcher universe is a psychopath. Hell, I am a psychopath too. So are you it seems...
We are all psychopaths? Meh... I can live with that.

 

[Maerd]

Giving him enough to survive even after he ran away from her?

He cannot runaway from her for long due to the last wish, isn't it? Even though she's a horrible person.

She helps a village woman giving birth.

As I said I don't remember this particular episode. Motivation here can be different from helping a woman. It can be that she was just curious what it's like to give birth and wanted to observe it first hand. Can you provide the exact quote of the situation?

She saves Dandelion's life.

Oh yeah, Geralt would have been totally thrilled if Yen let him die.

Your logic basically means that EVERY single person in the Witcher universe is a psychopath.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? The important characters, who are clearly psychopaths in TW3 are: Yen, Philippa, Dejkstra, Radovid, Emhyr, Eredin, head of witch hunters (don't remember his name), Whoreson Junior.

Hell, I am a psychopath too.

I can guarantee you that you're not. If you were, your responses here would have been very different.

We are all psychopaths?

About 1% of total population by statistics are psychopaths.

 

[CTPhipps]

Yennefer and Triss are both flawed people.

So is Geralt.

You can like both as Geralt and outside of it.

No need to demonize one or the other.

The problem with Archie is he can't make up his damned mind. Better OR Veronica.

 

[Maerd]

Yennefer and Triss are both flawed people.

So is Geralt.

True. Besides, nobody's perfect.

You can like both as Geralt and outside of it.

As Geralt, yes, I understand why he likes them, but not as a player who plays the game.

No need to demonize one or the other.

Demonization would be attributing nonexistent negative trails to the person to deliberately make that person look worse than he/she is. This is not the case here.

 

[CTPhipps]

Demonization would be attributing nonexistent negative trails to the person to deliberately make that person look worse than he/she is. This is not the case here.

Eh, I don't make more of it than is. Yennefer is expliclty a jerk but a lot of guys like jerkish women.

Myself included.

Just like the reverse is true,

Also, she's a bit of an anti-hero but Geralt can be too.

She's not to your tastes, I get that.

Ditto some for Triss.

But I also note even if a character is not someone I *LIKED*, I can still appreciate them as well-developed enjoyable characters who enrich the story.

 

[wright1978]

Eh, I don't make more of it than is. Yennefer is expliclty a jerk but a lot of guys like jerkish women.

Myself included.

Just like the reverse is true,

Also, she's a bit of an anti-hero but Geralt can be too.

She's not to your tastes, I get that.

Ditto some for Triss.

But I also note even if a character is not someone I *LIKED*, I can still appreciate them as well-developed enjoyable characters who enrich the story.

Yeah i don't particularly like Yen but yeah i can appreciate her as an interesting character

 

[OutgoingHermit]

Triss is naive, manipulative, jealous did things as terrible as being submissive even compliant of Lodge schemes that ironically caused all the mage problems that transpired during the games that they were fighting against and things as wonderful as sacrifice herself for Geralt and Ciri and other mages/friends.

Triss is definitely naive and takes advantage of Geralt's amnesia, but it's pretty explicit in TW2 that she is not part of the Lodge anymore. If you give Iorveth back his sword in the Elven Ruins, you get the scene where Triss contacts Philippa on the megascope and starts talking about how the Lodge needs to find out who's responsible for the assassinations and bring them to justice while clearing Geralt's name. Then when she later finds out that the Lodge ordered the hit on Demavend, she storms off to confront Philippa and gets ambushed by Cynthia. Then she gets thrown into a dungeon.

If anything, TW2 is a story about a lot of horrible stuff happening to Triss because she's trying to help Geralt. I think that's a huge part of why people who have only played the games see Triss as a much more sympathetic character.

 

[CTPhipps]

The games really retconned themselves.

The Lodge is suddenly NOT the Mean Girls Illuminati.

It's now a Morally Neutral Group.

and Triss is suddenly loyal to them again.

Despite the fact they almost ruined the world.

 

[Ortwyn]

And Triss is infertile not because she's too old. See replies by others, they pretty much explained it all.

They provide one of the possible explanations. I doubt that Triss would be powerful enough to become a member of the Lodge when 40 years old.

A girl who can give birth, because this is about a dynasty. That sets the bar and excludes you, Philippa and excludes me, it even excludes Keira and Triss, the youngest among us.

See it? Why would Margarita say that it excludes even the youngest of them if they were sterile anyway?

 

[Charcharo]

He cannot runaway from her for long due to the last wish, isn't it? Even though she's a horrible person.

As I said I don't remember this particular episode. Motivation here can be different from helping a woman. It can be that she was just curious what it's like to give birth and wanted to observe it first hand. Can you provide the exact quote of the situation?

Oh yeah, Geralt would have been totally thrilled if Yen let him die.


Why are you putting words in my mouth? The important characters, who are clearly psychopaths in TW3 are: Yen, Philippa, Dejkstra, Radovid, Emhyr, Eredin, head of witch hunters (don't remember his name), Whoreson Junior.

I can guarantee you that you're not. If you were, your responses here would have been very different.

About 1% of total population by statistics are psychopaths.

Somehow I doubt that she would think so far ahead...

Well then. Re-read it. As is I cant read the saga again. Not for another month.
Also, she has already seen birth you know... many times. She helped noble-women with that...

He would be dead mate...

I am not. This is how I see your logic. Yen is not a psychopath. To be fair, neither is Dejkstra (IIRC).

No. I can assure you that the longer I look for those acts of altruism in me, the more I see myself as a psychopath...

 

[Maerd]

I can assure you that the longer I look for those acts of altruism in me, the more I see myself as a psychopath...

Lack of altruism alone is not enough. A person can be an asshole but not a psychopath (i.e. Lambert). Lack of altruism should be combined with the lack of empathy, the main reason for psychopathy. Lack of empathy is an inability to relate feelings of others, which produces in psychopaths such traits as ruthlessness, lack of compassion, excessive confidence, absence of modesty, inability to feel remorse, high resistance to any stress.

The following exercise is effortless for psychopath: Go outside, find the prettiest girl on the street going alone, come directly to her, say confidently and without hesitation: "Hello, pretty girl. I'd like to fuck you, let's go to my place." Then press her till she either harshly reject you or agrees. After that to qualify for a psychopath you must feel no remorse, no regrets, no thoughts like "what if she has a boyfriend and he'll go after me?", "what if she call the police?", "What will she think about me?", or "but I'm not even looking good". To qualify, the reaction to my proposition of such exercise for psychopath can be either "sounds fun, it would be hillarious to see the face of that cunt when I tell her that" or "I can do it but it's boring and nothing special, on the other hand for $200 (some substantial sum for the psychopath, not necessarily 200, or a favor) I can do it, so be it".

---------- Updated at 02:56 AM ----------

But I also note even if a character is not someone I *LIKED*, I can still appreciate them as well-developed enjoyable characters who enrich the story.

I totally agree, which is why I enjoy Philippa in both TW2 and TW3 and Henselt in TW2 as in-game characters. Their writing is superb, they are nasty but very believable characters. But the question was whom we like as a players, no? By the way, Yen's writing is inconsistent throughout: it's OK in the beginning and in Skellige, it's awesome in Kaer Morhen, and it's bad in the final part of the game. It feels that the writer who wrote Yen's part tried really hard to make her likable without deviating much from the books, such too obvious efforts created directly opposite reaction from me, it made her less likable.

 

[mkm1911]

Triss, 1000% more. I couldn't care less if Yen dies.

I took me a month to really play TW3 (ignored the game for weeks) after meeting Yen in White Orchard and later in Vizima. Especially outside of that inn in White Orchard when you first meet her with those soldiers. I was like, "This is my long lost love? Stay lost b***h." She turned me off so much.

 

[krieckmann]

Yen all the way for me. Better looking IMO, and a more well rounded person. She even has a good sense of humor.

 

[mbaker51591]

I will go w/ Yennefer due she is willing to sacrifice everything just to find Ciri.

 

[daveyido]

No Keira no party.

 

[wichat]

OK. the man who I'm badly in love is concerned and afraid about his dautgher fate. First I tell him where he could... maybe, perhaps, find some information. After he's risked his life and meanwhile discovered his BEST friend is also in danger for helping my lover's daughter. I'm present myself as volunteer to sacrifice, asking him do not not become involved no matter what (even knowing that he will listen to me hardly). In the worse case, I lose my nails (don't care, I'll make them grow again, I'm a powerful healing sorceress).

And after all that, just not abusing from the generousity of my lover one, who still concerned for his daughter, and now for his best friend fate too) I have nothing more altruist than asking him for delaying his search, to save some sorceresses and mages (who he has never seen) while the world is in danger because his daughter fate....

Could this POV of view correct?