Triss's so called "Betrayal" (BOOK SPOILERS)

[NukeTheMoon]

Betray: ---SNIP---
One can have other reasons to betray someone beside being sociopath. It's still called "betrayal".
Does this mean Triss is a horrible human being? No. What this means is - she sided with the organization with shady motives against the interest of three of the main characters from the novels.

The issue is - royalty/nobility usually are responsible for raising and supporting their kids before marrying them off. On the other side, Lodge never did anything for Ciri, they were just threatening her.
There is also that thing about being Lodge's puppet + Tancred's mistress =/= Queen of Kovir.
But, apart from those two very insignificant details, what aristocracy is doing with their children is the same to what Lodge planned to do with Ciri.

I think Triss failed to refuse to allow herself to be pigeon holed, and that's all she failed at.
She most certainly did not do something against the interest of Geralt and Ciri. If anything, Yen did. Yen had information, that if it had be given to The Lodge, could have been used to find Vilgafortse, and save Ciri from him.

Let's assume, that Yen's view was right, that Vilgafotse has Ciri, and that Geralt will get his ass kicked when Geralt attacks Vilgafotse again.
Then let's consider the risk that Vilgafotrse could defeat her, and that The Lodge gives up after a year of looking because they assume he has her, and has already impregnated and discarded her.
The result is Vilgafotse slits Yen's throat, dumps her in a ditch. Vilgafortse impregnates Ciri, takes the baby, slits Ciri's throat, and dumps her in a ditch. Geralt attacks Vilgafotrse, Vilgafortse defeats Geralt, slits Geralts throat, dumps him in a ditch.
This risk was the danger Yen could assume quite possible. And she went against The Lodge anyway.

Triss on the other hand, knew that saving Ciri and Geralt could be assured through the Lodge finding Vilgafortse. You might not like what The Lodge wanted, not that it was all that relatively abnormal, but what they wanted is definitely a better outcome than what Yen could assume would happen if she failed to defeat Vilgafortse.

I'm not sure you're correct that she was to become his mistress. Tancred's wife is the one who will have the right to have her children put on the thrown. Not Tancred's bastards. Most kings had bastard children. I'm not sure that Kovir requires royal blood for marriages either.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Those dictionary definitions (picked from about half a dozen at each site) can be interpreted pretty broadly, even what is quoted in the spoiler in this post could be called betrayal. But what word to use in a particular context is not only a matter of it matching a definition in a dictionary, it also has some subjective aspect depending on what you want to express. For example, the word "betray" has some strong negative connotations when applied to a person, it usually implies malicious intent (see also: traitor, treason), rather than just the failure to do something.



Now, let's be honest, in nearly all discussions where this "betrayal" is brought up, it is done with the intention of trying to prove that (perhaps in the hope of making people change their game choices, or to put pressure on CDPR to remove the character from future games, who knows what motivates this kind of crusade), openly or not. I rarely saw it mentioned in other contexts. Even your own post, while seemingly denying it, at the some time does its best to still give that impression to the reader.

First point and second point are quite correct in my opinion.

I doubt that what the OP was really interested in are the dictionary definitions of the word "betrayal", that would not have needed asking on a forum, but rather why some consider that particular action (or rather lack of action) under the given circumstances such a horrible offense that can never be forgiven. Nevertheless, it is nice to know that Yennefer betrayed Geralt by deliberately not helping him before TW3 (despite knowing where he is) out of petty jealousy, and she also betrays Ciri by having plans with her against her will. And of course there are more, these are just two random examples. While I previously thought it would be an exaggerating way to describe those, they match some of the definitions, so it is not like I can argue.



I know perfectly well what your and Zyvik's real agenda is, and do not understand the point of trying to pretend something else. Anyway, that is not on topic, and I knew these kinds of discussions are never productive, so I figure it is best to leave, like the OP apparently already did as well.

This "but rather why some consider that particular action (or rather lack of action) under the given circumstances such a horrible offense that can never be forgiven." is really the heart of the matter.

As for Zyvik's and ooodrin's motivations for conversation, I consider unimportant. I am simply grateful they chose to express the reasoning, whether I agree or not. I ask for other people's opinions so I can understand them, not argue with, or change anyone's mind, except perhaps I thought maybe I might have missed something from a translation error or something like that.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

I think the act of not sticking up for Yen because Phil is there is a betrayal. The reason Yen is so pissed about it is it led to putting Ciri in danger (though Triss did not know this would be a consequence). Triss made a choice. It betrayed her relationship with Yen, which she said in BoE was more important to her than her relationship with Geralt IIRC.

Do I think it's some great moral failing? Not really objectively speaking. She had a hard choice, and she chose whether based on a cold calculus or fear. She seems to think the Lodge is a means to achieve some true good for her Kingdom. However ... if I was Yen I would be REAL pissed about it.

I don't get how Triss put's Ciri in danger. Triss has never put Ciri in danger.
On the other hand, Yen has repeatedly.
First (Unknowingly of Ciri's Elderblood), putting her with the Sorceresses in the magic school, right in their grasp, all they would have needed to do is figure out who she was, which wouldn't stay a secret for 10 years of schooling.
Secondly, by putting Ciri in a trance and using her against Phillipa instead of taking the girl and running away, which Yen admitted was wrong.
Thirdly, by instead of taking the most likely action to save Ciri's life, which Yen thought was in Vilgafortse's hands, by helping the Lodge find Ciri, instead she decided to try and attack him by herself, for a relatively unimportant reason.

Yen was pissed about was not getting Triss to do what she wanted, which is nothing new.

 

[Guest 3847602]

I think Triss failed to refuse to allow herself to be pigeon holed, and that's all she failed at.

Correct on the first point. As for the second - her "pigeonholed status" made her fail some people who needed her assistance. She had a binary choice, she chose something many people thought it was wrong. That's it. As you could notice, description of the term "betrayal" covers this eventuality.
Is it really that unexpected readers, at this point in the books, are more invested into the fates and well-being of three main characters than things like prosperity of the Lodge and Kovir? She didn't do something evil or nonsensical, I get that. Her idealism is nice thing, but her optimism about her capability of influencing Lodge's decisions is very naive.

She most certainly did not do something against the interest of Geralt and Ciri.

What Triss is doing is what Lodge allows and asks her to do. Their interest is Ciri and her child. They wouldn't move a finger to help Geralt. Had he decided to challenge Lodge's plans for Ciri (which was expected) he would become their target. That's what Ciri tried to do in Rivia - persuade him not too go against the Lodge, for his own sake. Triss probably went with them for similar reason.

I need to talk to Geralt. Say goodbye to him. And tell him the truth. You should know one thing, ladies. When we left castle Stygga, leaving behind their dead and ours, I asked Geralt if it was all over, if we had won, if evil was defeated then good had prevailed. He did not answer, he just smiled a sad smile. I thought it was from fatigue and the sorrow of leaving all his friends buried under the walls. Only now I know what his smile meant. It was a sympathetic smile at the naivety of a child who believed that killing Vilgefortz and Bonhart represented the triumph of good over evil. I have to try and convince Geralt that what you ladies want to do with me, differs substantially from what Vilgefortz wanted to do with his glass tube. I’ll try and explain to him the differences between castle Montecalvo and castle Stygga, although Vilgefortz thought he was doing was for the good of the world and you ladies also do for the good of the world. I know it is not going to be easy to convince as old wolf like Geralt. Geralt will say that I’m a brat and can easily be fooled into doing noble things. But I have to try. It is important that he understand it, that he accepts it. It is very important.

Yen had information, that if it had be given to The Lodge, could have been used to find Vilgafortse, and save Ciri from him.

- Who would save Ciri from them?

Triss on the other hand, knew that saving Ciri and Geralt could be assured through the Lodge finding Vilgafortse.

Again, just Ciri. Geralt could become problem later.

‘Do not attack Triss’ relationships, Yennefer.’ Philippa retaliated with her own fire in her eyes.

‘We will find and rescue the girl without your help. And if you succeed, that's fine, a thousand thanks, because you will have saved us the trouble. You tear the girl out of the hands of Vilgefortz and we will be happy. And Geralt? Who cares about Geralt?’

I'm not sure you're correct that she was to become his mistress. Tancred's wife is the one who will have the right to have her children put on the thrown. Not Tancred's bastards. Most kings had bastard children. I'm not sure that Kovir requires royal blood for marriages either.

‘Yes,’ she confirmed. ‘First of all you must impress prince Tancred. because you are going to become his lover and give him a child.’
‘If you were still Cirilla of Cintra,’ Philippa continued after a long pause, ‘still the daughter of Pavetta and granddaughter of Calanthe, you would become Prince Tancred’s legal wife. You’d be the princess and later the queen of Poviss and Kovir. Unfortunately, and I tell you with genuine regret, fate has deprived you of everything. Including your future. You will only be his mistress. His favorite.’

Finally, and it's nice to have someone reply to the actual points I was addressing without oversensitive reactions, crackpot theories and claims of having mind-reading powers. Kudos to that.
:cheers:

 

[Domhnallaich]

There is no way that Triss would not have agreed to Yen to her "last request" for a postmortem declaration if Phillipa was not there. Not a chance in hell.

What part of the book was this? I can't remember.

 

[dmcaldw]

Triss's so called "Betrayal"

First off I think I think people are looking to deep to find the betrayal . From Yen's point of view she felt betrayed , I am a little fuzzy when it comes to the books but it is said that Triss and Yen shared a bond akin to being sisters . Yen is pretty black and white when it comes to emotions or over protectiveness . Triss's feelings towards Geralt and dealings with the lodge concerning Ciri hurt Yen's feelings hence the betrayal . The other points made with Yen's dealings concerning Ciri have more to do with her feelings she has for Ciri . School was suppose to be for Ciri's benefit Yen was afraid she couldn't teach Ciri any more without hurting her . As for the lodge finding Ciri she didn't trust them . As for the game not showing this I think it shows quite well Yen pushed the blame on Geralt hence his dunk in the lake . At the end of Witcher 2 Triss knew the game was up , in 3 if you choose to follow the Triss romance path it is up to you .

 

[Lunchi]

no kidding

 

[NukeTheMoon]

What part of the book was this? I can't remember.

Towards the end of The Tower Of Swallows, right before Yen does a suicide attack against Vilgafortse in Stigga castle.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Triss's so called "Betrayal"

First off I think I think people are looking too deep to find the betrayal. From Yen's point of view she felt betrayed , I am a little fuzzy when it comes to the books but

it is said that Triss and Yen shared a bond akin to being sisters . Yen is pretty black and white when it comes to emotions or over protectiveness.

Triss's feelings towards Geralt and dealings with the lodge concerning Ciri hurt Yen's feelings hence the betrayal. The other points made with Yen's dealings concerning Ciri have more to do with her feelings she has for Ciri.

I agree strongly with the first point, although discussing the motives for why is something else.

For the second point --- I never got that from the books. Just that they were friends. However I also am beginning to doubt the official translations of the books, I'm thinking I might be better off going through them again with fan translation to get a better picture, although I'm not sure where to grab em.

For the third point, I don't really think that anything about it was a surprise to Yen. I believe Yen predicted everything, including that Triss would not be alone at contact. To that, Yen says as much. For someone as smart as Yen is supposedly to be, her requests make little sense except for basically attacking Triss personally.

no kidding

?

 

[Zyvik]

For the second point --- I never got that from the books. Just that they were friends.

There were several moments wich implied that they were exceptionally close.

Triss herself admitted that Yennefer was more important to her than Geralt:

Spoiler

Then Geralt of Rivia appeared. A witcher leading a stormy life, and tied to her good friend Yennefer in a strange, turbulent and almost violent relationship. Triss had watched them both and was jealous even though it seemed there was little to be jealous of. Their relationship quite obviously made them both unhappy, had led straight to destruction, pain and yet, against all logic ... it had lasted. Triss couldn't understand it. And it had fascinated her. It had fascinated her to such an extent that . . . she had seduced the witcher - with the help of a little magic. She had hit on a propitious moment, a moment when he and Yennefer had scratched at each other's eyes yet again and had abruptly parted. Geralt had needed warmth, and had wanted to forget.No, Triss had not desired to take him away from Yennefer. As a matter of fact, her friend was more important to her than he was.

Yennefer risked her life protecting Triss during the Battle of Sodden:

Spoiler

There was a moment when out of sheer terror I forgot all my spells except for one — and thanks to that spell I could have teleported myself from that horrific place back home, to my tiny little tower in Maribor. There was a moment, when I threw up from fear, when Yennefer and Coral held me up by the shoulders and hair

Yennefer mentioned Triss as the only person aside from Ciri and Geralt whom she wanted in her dream life:

Spoiler

‘A pretty dream,’ said Yennefer, stroking him lightly on the shoulder. ‘A home. A house built with your own hands, and you and I in that house. You would keep horses and sheep, and I would have a little garden, cook food and card wool, which we would take to market. With the pennies earned from selling the wool and various crops we would buy what we needed, let’s say some copper cauldrons and an iron rake. Every now and then, Ciri would visit us with her husband and three children, and Triss Merigold would occasionally look in, to stay for a few days. We’d grow old together, beautifully and with dignity. And should I ever get bored, you would play for me in the evening on your homemade bagpipes. Playing the bagpipes - as everyone knows - is the best remedy for depression.

Apparently Triss has seen Yennefer being vunerable many times. Something i doubt Yennefer would show to a casual friend:

Spoiler

When Yennefer was telling the assembly about Ciri, Triss Merigold looked attentively at her. Yennefer spoke calmly and without emotion, but Triss knew her too well and had known her for too long to be fooled. She had seen her in many situations, including stressful ones, which had exhausted her and led her to the verge of sickness, and occasionally into it. Now, without doubt, Yennefer found herself in such a situation again. She looked distressed, weary and ill.

She's the first to defend Yennefer when she escapes from the Lodge:

Spoiler

‘She’ll tell them everything:’ Sabrina Glevissig yelled. ‘Everything about the lodge! She’ll flight straight to-’ ‘Nonsense,’ Triss Merigold interrupted animatedly, looking at Francesca and Ida Emean. ‘Yennefer won’t betray us. She didn’t escape to betray us.’ ‘Triss is right’, Margarita Laux-Antille added, backing her up. ‘I know why she escaped and who she wants to rescue. I’ve seen them, she and Ciri, together. And I understand.

Triss blows her cover when she hears that Yennefer is dead:

Spoiler

Barely two months had passed since the events on the Isle of Thanedd, and the names of the traitors bribed by Nilfgaard were remembered. The name of the celebrated Yennefer too. ‘We takes ‘er.’ the fisherwoman continued, ‘to jarl Crach an Craite in Kaer Trolde on Ard Skellig. Never seen her after that. The jarl was away on an expedition, but they said when he returned he first received the witch harshly, but later treated her polite and courteous. Hmm…. And I was just waiting to see what kind of surprise the sorceress would conjure up for me before the jarl. But no. Never said a word, never complained. I know that. Honorable witch. Afterwards, when she killed herself I even felt sorry for ‘er…’ ‘Yennefer’s dead?’ Triss screamed, so overwhelmed she forgot about the importance of remaining incognito and the secrecy of her mission. ‘Yennefer of Vengerberg’s dead?’

It's also important to note that it was Triss's desire to protect Yennefer wich ultimately helped her to overcome her greatest fear:

Spoiler

Hail sparkled in the sun like diamonds. They were still falling, but the biggest downpour had abated, Yennefer could tell by the pounding on the magical shield, then the hail stopped. Suddenly, as if cut off. Guards stormed into the street, the shoes of their horses scraped on the ice. The rabble screamed and fled, whipped by whips and beaten with the flats of swords.'Bravo, Triss,' croaked Yennefer. 'I don't know what that was... But it was effective.''There was something to defend,' croaked Triss Merigold - heroine of the hill."

Oh, and by the way in the original Polish version Yennefer refers to Triss as "przyjaciółka" a word wich Poles don't use lightly:
https://sylwiaofwarsaw.wordpress.com...my-przyjaciel/

 

[dmcaldw]

Oh, and by the way in the original Polish version Yennefer refers to Triss as "przyjaciółka" a word wich Poles don't use lightly: https://sylwiaofwarsaw.wordpress.com...my-przyjaciel/

Thanks for this because the translations of books I read they were described as friends as close as sisters nice to see that other languages can describe closest friend or true friend with one word .

For the third point, I don't really think that anything about it was a surprise to Yen. I believe Yen predicted everything, including that Triss would not be alone at contact. To that, Yen says as much. For someone as smart as Yen is supposedly to be, her requests make little sense except for basically attacking Triss personally.

It makes sense if you look at it like this regardless if Yen suspected stuff or knew about stuff she finally had enough , speaking from 23years marriage you usually strike at the person closest to you . This usually comes about when things have built up over time . Yen expects trust and loyalty each little thing Triss did went against her expectations that also may be why the blow up seemed like nonsense . Triss's betrayal was real to Yen even if it doesn't make sense to all readers , it was there . Everyone is looking too deeply it was the final straw with Yen she let stuff build up . Yen could have also as easily blown up on Geralt , Yen struck out at her closest friend instead betrayal was there just not in the view you would expect . Also if they were as close of friends as described it wouldn't take much to mend .

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Thanks for this because the translations of books I read they were described as friends as close as sisters nice to see that other languages can describe closest friend or true friend with one word .

Where did you get your fan translations from?

 

[dmcaldw]

http://forums.cdprojektred.com/foru...cussions/16706-our-community-fan-translations Some of them seem to be here . I had to google some of them .

 

[Deren_Bong]

This is the most detailed and civilised debate between Triss and Yennefer on the internet,

so in a nutshell,
Yennefer started feeling betrayed by Triss because she made the realistic decision to save Ciri and Geralt by siding with the Lodge without knowing their intentions?

Yennefer then acted out on Triss in front of the Lodge which makes things worse as the crisis between Yennefer and the Lodge deepens to a point that it forced Triss to choose a side?
Triss chose the Lodge and therefore she is a traitor to Yennefer, Ciri and Geralt?
I would say that is far over reaching as she was put in those shoes by yennefer’s understandable love for Ciri, but then again, love can be blind and sometimes a mother doesn’t make the best decision for her child out of love,

therefore it all depends on what Triss’s action is after the pleading by yennefer to Phillipa while she remain silent,