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Nikola_Nesic

Nikola_Nesic

User
#61
Oct 6, 2019
But not to that extent, sure some cyberware is mandatory like neck chip slot or that jack in your hand, but rest should be totally optional, also why they scrap humanity and cyberpsychosis from the game?

In the end you will turn in another Adam Jensen who will have access to all cyberware he want with no side effect and cons.
 
Hoplite_22

Hoplite_22

User
#62
Oct 6, 2019
Nikola_Nesic said:
But not to that extent, sure some cyberware is mandatory like neck chip slot or that jack in your hand, but rest should be totally optional, also why they scrap humanity and cyberpsychosis from the game?

In the end you will turn in another Adam Jensen who will have access to all cyberware he want with no side effect and cons.
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but you don't, you can't go full conversion borg or anything like that. they probably abandoned it after they found none of the mods they where going to include would ever get your score low enough for it to matter.

Never mind that calling someone with augments "less human" is fucking grim.
 
Restlessdingo32

Restlessdingo32

User
#63
Oct 6, 2019
kofeiiniturpa said:
@Restlessdingo32

Referring to our previous discussion in that other thread... This is an example of narrative sacrificing gameplay. Not in a ”major” way, but nonetheless. An interesting gameplay prospect through a genuinely unique characterbuild is gone because the narrative demands a chip in your head (and a ghost). And I’m not sure if it’ll be ultimately for the better.
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In that case, I'm right there with you. The only real point I was getting at in those discussions is such sacrifices have the potential to apply in either direction.

In regards to this thread.... I wouldn't consider a person less human for augmenting themselves with technology. As an example, a soldier returning from war and being equipped with a prosthetic leg or arm due to an injury isn't magically less of a "true" person. After all, when you really get down to it in technical terms "human" is a reference to human beings, aka homo sapiens, or the species. A human missing an arm or leg is still a human. Replacing the lost limb with an artificial one doesn't really change that. Particularly because one of the defining characteristics of "humans" is tool use and artificial enhancement, in some capacity or another (this is not to say things like tool use are unique to people, it's more meant to convey we're better at it in many ways relative to other animals and it's kind of critical to our survival...).

None of this is to say "humanity" loss wouldn't be a real possibility from artificial enhancement. I just think this view point gets applied a bit too liberally. Bob changed his arm. Oh my, how will he ever deal with the loss of his humanity? Yeah... no....

I'd also add it would probably be uncommon for a person to avoid various ubiquitous technologies. Especially for a person in V's line of work. Yes, it would be preferable to pick and choose how deep the player character enters the self-augmentation route with cyberware. it's understandable if the player character is unable to avoid it entirely though.
 
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KakitaTatsumaru

KakitaTatsumaru

User
#64
Oct 6, 2019
Hoplite_22 said:
but you don't, you can't go full conversion borg or anything like that. they probably abandoned it after they found none of the mods they where going to include would ever get your score low enough for it to matter.

Never mind that calling someone with augments "less human" is fucking grim.
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Restlessdingo32 said:
In that case, I'm right there with you. The only real point I was getting at in those discussions is such sacrifices have the potential to apply in either direction.

In regards to this thread.... I wouldn't consider a person less human for augmenting themselves with technology. As an example, a soldier returning from war and being equipped with a prosthetic leg or arm due to an injury isn't magically less of a "true" person. After all, when you really get down to it in technical terms "human" is a reference to human beings, aka homo sapiens, or the species. A human missing an arm or leg is still a human. Replacing the lost limb with an artificial one doesn't really change that. Particularly because one of the defining characteristics of "humans" is tool use and artificial enhancement, in some capacity or another (this is not to say things like tool use are unique to people, it's more meant to convey we're better at it in many ways relative to other animals and it's kind of critical to our survival...).

None of this is to say "humanity" loss wouldn't be a real possibility from artificial enhancement. I just think this view point gets applied a bit too liberally. Bob changed his arm. Oh my, how will he ever deal with the loss of his humanity? Yeah... no....

I'd also add it would probably be uncommon for a person to avoid various ubiquitous technologies. Especially for a person in V's line of work. Yes, it would be preferable to pick and choose how deep the player character enters the self-augmentation route with cyberware. it's understandable if the player character is unable to avoid it entirely though.
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I just wanna point the fact that C2077 is the videogame adaptation of C2020, and that humanity loss is the result of that fact: in cyberpunk 2020 getting cyber change (possibly a lot) your perspective and that's just it.

Arguing against that because of logic would mean that the game is supposed to follow that logic, which it doesn't.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

User
#65
Oct 6, 2019
Hoplite_22 said:
but you don't, you can't go full conversion borg or anything like that. they probably abandoned it after they found none of the mods they where going to include would ever get your score low enough for it to matter.
Click to expand...
Probably more they didn't want to try to deal with what happens when your character goes cyberpsycho.

Because let's be honest, a LARGE percentage of players will get every piece of cyberware available then even if warned complain when their character goes bonkers and they can't control their psychotic mass murderer.
 
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Maelcom404

Maelcom404

User
#66
Oct 6, 2019
Bloodartist said:
Was it seen that max humanity is 100 or are you assuming?
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Empathy skill can go at 10max, then it makes 100humanity points, he was correct (unless they went of from the original rules and worked something else).

Suhiira said:
Probably more they didn't want to try to deal with what happens when your character goes cyberpsycho.

Because let's be honest, a LARGE percentage of players will get every piece of cyberware available then even if warned complain when their character goes bonkers and they can't control their psychotic mass murderer.
Click to expand...

I don't think so, it could be a cool feature.
Your screen glitching as your character starts to shoot at random etc...
People aren't that dumb, nobody ever complained about frenzies in Vampire's games, it works kinda the same.

It's either that:
They didn't found an actual fun way of doing it/ hadn't the ressources to make it.

Or just that they want to strictly focus on the story and so... You don't want Psycho-Patrick doing some cyber rampage and screwing the storyline at some crucial moments.

The fact it's very heavy on narration kinda cut the psychosis out, I feel the game will be pretty "guided" and "scripted" (story wise), like Fallout 4
 
Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#67
Oct 7, 2019
Maelcom404 said:
They didn't found an actual fun way of doing it
Click to expand...

This, I believe. They talk about it.

Worth noting: very very few PCs in Cyberpunk 2020 go psycho. They can see it on their stats - and Ripperdocs have a vested interest in making sure you don't go nuts.

It acts as a caution/limit and also as a Dark Future theme, but players, with only one life to live and a Team to help them, rarely go psycho.

Rarely, but not impossible. You still need to take into account the player losing his character - it's typically character death. Having that happen is rarely a small thing in a story.

I don't think CDPR could find a way to integrate it into V's story in a fun way. Simply put, V wouldn't reasonably go psycho, any more than a player would.
 
Bloodartist

Bloodartist

User
#68
Oct 7, 2019
KakitaTatsumaru said:
I just wanna point the fact that C2077 is the videogame adaptation of C2020, and that humanity loss is the result of that fact: in cyberpunk 2020 getting cyber change (possibly a lot) your perspective and that's just it.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is true. As far as I know its a video game adaptation of Cyberpunk red. And I imagine they have been writing both at same time.

Sardukhar said:
Rarely, but not impossible. You still need to take into account the player losing his character - it's typically character death. Having that happen is rarely a small thing in a story.

I don't think CDPR could find a way to integrate it into V's story in a fun way. Simply put, V wouldn't reasonably go psycho, any more than a player would.
Click to expand...
I have always been of the same opinion. HOWEVER, I think it would be great if there was some negative effect associated to (besides your bank balance) for heavy cybernetization.
 
Restlessdingo32

Restlessdingo32

User
#69
Oct 7, 2019
KakitaTatsumaru said:
I just wanna point the fact that C2077 is the videogame adaptation of C2020, and that humanity loss is the result of that fact: in cyberpunk 2020 getting cyber change (possibly a lot) your perspective and that's just it.

Arguing against that because of logic would mean that the game is supposed to follow that logic, which it doesn't.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't dare to dispute any of this :). It's clear humanity loss is an important element in the CP stratosphere. It's also clear cyberware plays a large role there. We're talking a hypothetical, futuristic world here. There are any number of ways to tie modification of a person via cyberware to humanity loss from a logical perspective. For instance, you could say it leads to those results due to the way the cyberware is integrated with the person in the hypothetical, futuristic world. It was more of a general statement.

Let me put it this way.... In Deus EX MD there is a lot of aug hate going around. In that game you could easily argue most of it was founded in blind fear mongering. Yeah, the augs went off the rails. It was not because they were augs. It was because someone did something malicious to make it happen. Augs were merely the tool to get the result. The real culprit there was the people responsible for the "incident".

Obviously, Deus EX isn't CP. The fact remains unless there is a concrete reason for enhanced people ending up subject to new behavior from the enhancement, on a psychological level, the issue of human vs less human is not really about the technology at all. It's more about how people have a tendency to judge, criticize and direct hate toward things they identify as different or do not understand. Even if there is a functional reason for the behavioral change, exploring the topic likely has as much to do with this tendency as the technology itself.
 
Watche_Doge

Watche_Doge

User
#70
Oct 7, 2019
Tomice158 said:
I really hope there will be augments that don't alter our look in any meaningful way.
Stuff like nanomesh woven through our skin making it more resilient while not altering our look.
Or gene-therapy that strengthens our muscles, but doesn't replace them.
Click to expand...
I am completely in for bio-aug for this origin story, relying on genetics (and mutations (hint hint)).
With the NIK (AR interface that shares animations with the regular basic cyberware but also fits within the purist lore)

This faction as a whole is themed around doing what all augs do, without the actual implants.
What I have in mind is nothing Amish like, more like people using alternative tech.
Besides, the world in 2077 has no actual internet and everyone is relying on local networks, our character can come from a nomad clan that focuses on old world tech, has no implants, has muscle-fiber bioenhacners (gene theraphy) from 2050 or something and their focus is pushing our own evolution further trough such methods. Bone-thickening calcium injections and bone micro-breakdown in order to strengthen the tissue and get to let's say STR of 6 without implants.
They deem implants as something that weakens you and saps you of your natural strength due to your reliance on them.

Would be a pretty cool alternative playstile I think.

I mean we have the Animals who are stim junkines, why not have a bio faction that looks on implants as something that saps us of our humanity and natural evolution (even tough in 2077 they have become our natural evolution)
Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2019

Restlessdingo32 said:
Obviously, Deus EX isn't CP. The fact remains unless there is a concrete reason for enhanced people ending up subject to new behavior from the enhancement, on a psychological level, the issue of human vs less human is not really about the technology at all. It's more about how people have a tendency to judge, criticize and direct hate toward things they identify as different or do not understand. Even if there is a functional reason for the behavioral change, exploring the topic likely has as much to do with this tendency as the technology itself.
Click to expand...
Jensen never asked for this :-\ :D

 
BabalKabak

BabalKabak

User
#71
Oct 7, 2019
@Watche_Doge I expect to meet at least one faction that rely on bio techs rather than cyber techs. But somehow I don't think that V will get the chance to be enhanced that way.
 
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KakitaTatsumaru

KakitaTatsumaru

User
#72
Oct 7, 2019
Restlessdingo32 said:
The fact remains unless there is a concrete reason for enhanced people ending up subject to new behavior from the enhancement, on a psychological level
Click to expand...
That's C2020 position actually: Cyberpsychosis.
My only C2020 book, the core manual, doesn't extend over it's cause, just saying "When you start adding metal and plastic to people they start to change and it isn't pretty".
It is an effect linked to how C2020 world works, and C2020 world isn't really like reality, that's just it.
 
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