Trust me, you only need the first two novels (Spoilers)

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Trust me, you only need the first two novels (Spoilers)

Disclaimer: This is not flamebait, even if some arguments I present might come across as provocative for provocation's sake. This is my honest opinion. I'm not debating Sapkowski's literary merit or claming that he writes bad books, only stating what I think and feel he did wrong with the Geralt saga, and how CDP did so much better than him. Feel free to disagree or to rectify wrong assumptions I may very well have made, or things I might have remembered wrong, but kindly refrain from flaming. Also, spoilers up ahead for those who haven't read the novels. Oh, and apologies in advance for the ranty stream of consciousness.

Here's what happened to me: I read The 'Last Wish' (sole edition available in my country at the time), liked it but filed it as 'nice short story collection with no follow-up', played the Witcher 1 a few years later, bought the other books (in German) and finally played the Witcher 2.

So why do I believe you don't need the novels? Simply put, because in my opinion, what CDP have done with Geralt and his world has easily surpassed what Sapkowski accomplished in his novels, even if they are the source material on which the games were based. More, the two games completely left the books eating their dust. The quality, coherence and character development took Sapkowski to school. I'm dead serious, and I never thought I'd say something like this when juxtaposing a book with a game. Here's why.

'The Last Wish' is a great book of intertwined short stories. Really, really good. Gives you bite-sized chunks of goodness and leaves you wanting more when you finish. An intriguing new world with elements that are familiar and foreign at the same time, a sympathetic badass main character, snappy dialogue and nice doses of action. Were it not for the end, it'd easily be an excellent standalone novel in its own right. Enter 'The Sword of Destiny'. More of the same, to a point. I didn't feel it had the same impact and pizzazz of its predecessor, but still a good follow-up, and the end had just the right mix of closure and open-endedness.

I felt things starting to go south on 'Blood of the Elves'. For some strange reason, the vibe I got was that Sapkowski was no longer that into Geralt, or hellbent on proving he could create better characters, and thus began our favorite witcher's exodus into the role of part-timer in the books that readers expected to be about him. So the reader has to put up with his understudy, Ciri, which I simply don't feel to be a compelling or sympathetic character, or rather not compelling enough to carry the better half of a series. Sapkowski created a fascinating mythos about the witchers, but after two books he presents them to us as a dying breed that no longer has any real relevance, and the focus shifts into political intrigue. No imbibing of potions, no usage of signs, and other than the one or two monsters to slay in rather throwaway fashion, there's no witchering to be done until very, very late in the series, and even then it almost feels like fanservice rather than an organic part of the story.

'That's what happens in the games as well', you might say, and you'd be right. The focus of both games' stories is not monster-hunting. However, you get the feeling that being a witcher is still a relevant part of who Geralt is, with contracts aplenty, danger lurking around every corner and monsters trying to fit in a changing world. What Sapkowski did was create an intriguing setting only to use it for two books, and then discard it, rinse it and present you with a rather generic alternative. Like coming up with a unique selling point and discarding it in favor of something that has been done many times before and by better scribes to boot.

Now, does this mean that witchering is all Geralt should do? Absolutely not. But it's what he *does*. You don't put a special ops agent in, say, a romantic comedy unless you mean to poke fun at him, and oddly enough, that's exactly what happens to Geralt for the better part of the saga. He gets regularly trounced and mocked and becomes a shadow of his former self right up to the penultimate volume, but by then it's already too little, too late. I'm serious. He seldom gets the verbal upper hand, is a bully to humans and gets his pale behind handed to him whenever confronted with more powerful opposition. Not only that, but at a certain point in the story, he gets his hands full while fighting a human knight he insulted and - get this - both are subsequently belt-whipped by another companion, who only stops whipping Geralt when he screams for her to stop, leaving him covered in welts and with a cauliflower ear. I kid you not.

Even near the end, when he finally vanquishes his nemesis, he gets told that he was lucky. Lucky that his nemesis had previously been partially blinded. And this from the mouth of someone he's just saved. "Oh, that guy was going to kill us all. Nice job, Geralt. Good thing he was handicapped from the start, or else you'd never have made it. Yay you for skewering a myopic opponent". It just felt so forced and unnecessary, stealing your main character's thunder in his one moment of glory, when he spent half the story wallowing in the mud. Just boggles the mind.

As if that weren't enough, the story takes a turn to the weird as frack, with dimension-hopping that takes the character of Ciri to medieval France(!), a knights of the round table demiplane and other assorted zaniness. Felt like an Eastern bloc weird tales fanzine at times. CDP pulls if off much, much better with Alvin/Grandmaster and the dimension-hopping Wild Hunt, meshing that sort of high concept harmoniously with the rest of the story so as not to have it stick out like a sore thumb from the coherence of the setting. It's like Sapkowski was high on something or trying really hard to make you care about Ciri and her plight. I mean, why read about a measly witcher in decline when you've got a plane-hopping witcherette, right?

And then, of course, there's the little matter of the ending. The big reveal comes when the closest thing to a big baddie turns out to be a secondary character in one of the 'Last Wish' tales, but that's ok, because he's this laid-back guy who says it's all cool and leaves. And then, sometime later, Geralt dies in the arms of his loved one in almost callously offhand fashion, and Ciri teleports both into Deusexmachinaville, where they're kinda sorta alive, and then she hops back on her unicorn to go back for some more knights of the round table goofiness.

What...?

And people here are clamoring for translations? Take my word for it, you're better off having just read 'The Last Wish' and a fan translation of 'Sword of Destiny', and then playing the games. The remaining five books simply aren't worth it and CDP did an amazing job to resurrect the franchise and breathe new life into it. They've taken it on an 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' spin Sapkowski clearly wasn't interested in, and crafted a fantastic tale with all the better elements of the witcher universe, seamlessly blending new ideas into it; ideas that fit organically with what had previously been established. CDP got the formula right. The Witcher is Geralt and Geralt is The Witcher. Take Geralt out of the equation, and all you've got is a run-of-the-mill slavic game of thrones with magic thrown into the mix.

So yeah. Kudos to CDP for expanding on 'The Last Wish' and doing it right. My money is on you delivering an absolutely killer final chapter, gentlemen.
 
I played both games before reading The Last Wish and Blood of Elves, then having read those books made me want to play the game so much more and then playing the game made me want to read the books again. I just enjoy the Witcher franchise in general, also the games are meant to be a continuation of the books or at least part of the original story so they cant be totally disregarded.
 
While your right that the focus shifts from Geralt in "Blood of Elves" he's still a main part. Now I have only read the short stories and "Blood" so I'll take your word for the others, but I feel that with the book that it's about showing that he wants to have that kind of human relationships with his kind-of daughter and kind-of wife with these big political storylines instead of tiny self contained tales of badassdome. It does go away from the formula of him fighting monsters, removing curses and helping people when they have the coin I think that is the point. The shorts have to be short or else they would not be as good. I mean could you see any of those in a 300-500 page book? It just wouldn't work. With "Blood" though we see that it shifts to more of a multi-character book and I think that makes it work as we can have the characters that made up that book (Ciri, Geralt, Yennefer, Triss and Dandelion) do many different things that still tie in with the plot in a major way. Ciri and Yennefer begin to have the bond between an odd, magic mother and daughter and Dandelion we learn is a spy. The Geralt chapters varied enough for him to be a main focal point and were probably the best in the game. But what made the CDPR games so great was that they blended the short and long very well. We can have these self contained missions like Troll Trouble and Little Sisters that have the same kind of style Sapkowski had with Geralt and then the long political stories (again with multiple main characters) that go on for the whole game. So while I can see that the books aren't needed they are still good even when they go away from Geralt.
 
I haven't read the books, but I take issue with the title of this thread.

No, I will not trust you. Why should I? I'll read the books and make my own judgement on their merit. It's rather foolish to trust only one anonymous person on the internet when deciding whether or not to read something.
 
So basically you are just pissed off that Geralt in the books is not some "bad ass" superhero, also that he is not really main character of the series. I don't agree that cdpr made better job then sapkowski, simply because they took gaeralt from short stories ad throwed him into mishmash of books and there is little to no original concepts. I read witcher novels first, and treated the witcher game more like fan-service than continuation. In that regard witcher 2 made much better, there is a lot more originality though they also rewrote some concepts. For example artifact compression of triss was just copy pasted from books, except in books that was yenefer. Lets see: alvin - ciri 2.0, vernon roche-dijkstra 2.0, saskia-boroch2.0 etc. Don't get me wrong, i like witcher games but they are nowhere near witcher books. Also in the books geralt and yenefer died... there was no "deusexmachinaville" it was more like personal heaven for them. You just misunderstand few last pages, probably lost in translation.
 
I played the games first, then I bought the two books that were released in English so between that and the fan translations I've read everything except for the last two novels in the series. From the first post it sounds like there's a lot of craziness in the last two books, but I haven't read that yet so I'm just going to comment on what I have read so far.

I don't think that reading the books is strictly necessary to understand the games because the games did a good job of providing back-story where necessary. However I really enjoyed reading the books so far so I think they're definitely worth reading on their own. And then on top of that, having read the books, I understand a lot of the secondary references in the games which I missed the first time I played them. It adds a new layer of depth and appreciation to the games for me.

And about the short stories versus the novels, I think it was kind of necessary to change the focus a bit in order to present a larger story arc in the novels. It would be very frustrating to me as a reader if the novels went off on a lot of tangents that didn't have any real connection to the main plot. But in an RPG it's a different format and it's normal for there to be a lot of side quests that I can choose to do whenever I want to do them, or I can choose to continue the main plot if that's what I'd like to do. They can have more not-really-related side plots and contracts in the games because even though those things don't advance the main plot, they advance the player's character/skill development which is also very important in a game.
 
I´ve also read all the books, and even though I wasn´t actually thrilled about the final plot twist, or about the last two books in general, I´d strongly recommend reading them. I mean, when some piece of art, let it be a tv series, movie or a computer game which is originally based on a book, here even on a whole saga, I think you should always try to read the book, because that is the basic.

Of course that in this case it´s necessary to take books and the games as separate things, but it would really be a shame to miss out on reading them, especially when you are lucky enough and they are translated into your language. It gives you a better perspective of things going on in the games, not to mention you can enjoy a lot of remarks connected to the books. Plus you can make a complex opinion concerning some choices or characters...
 
i agree they arent "needed" to play the games, but it adds alot more to the experience of playing them, imho.

then when you play the games, you can see where they draw certain references/ comparisons from.

if you ask me, id softly suggest reading the novels when you cant play the witcher 1 or 2. thats logical anyway.

to me its like comparing a movie adaptation vs the actual novel. theres just too many minute details that are left out. like getting your brains humped out by yennifer (hubba, hubba) is like being "rocked in a sea of chamomille, that grew aggitated and seethed." ...etc. must be nice. i digress. got sidetracked, where was i..ah yes..

not to mention theres something to be said for the good old imagination, one thing the game wont provide.

at least read last wish if nothing else. BoEs, i didnt really care for the ending... i wont divulge why ;) although it could be argued it would be a better prelude into the AoK because of the political overtones that seem to be more prevalent.
 
Aewyre said:
What Sapkowski did was create an intriguing setting only to use it for two books, and then discard it, rinse it and present you with a rather generic alternative. Like coming up with a unique selling point and discarding it in favor of something that has been done many times before and by better scribes to boot.
Quite the contrary, I'd say. What happend in novels, it has been Sapkowski throwing away most of the heroic fantasy' trapings, and creating actual literature, instead. Yes, it is no longer about badassness of the main character, author have already said about it all there was to say, then moved on. It is not fan service. Superhero is now in the situation where all his prowess are almost useless, and he needs to lern how to cope with the feeling of hopelessness. You could as well complain why, say, George Martin killed your favorite hero.
Sure, it is a matter of taste, you gonna to like the transition or not, and late Sapkowski do gravitate towards Umberto Eco, "Zmija" novel is a final example.

But, literature likes and dislikes aside, yes reading the novels is not strickly nessesary. But it helps. It adds depth.
From gamer perspective, seeing a redhead in green robe, at the bigining of the first chapter, in TW1. My first thought has been "It got to be Shani". Hearing coughing and wheezing of Shoeshine Boy, I knew who he is right away, so after winning the book I bee-lined back to him.
 
Your post is very long, so unfortunately I couldn't read it all. But impressive.

I have heard so many great things about the novels and from my experience with the game, I am really wanting to read them (will be purchasing the first book soon). I love writing and creating stories, so I am thrilled that there is actually a game out there concerned about story and is based off of an acclaimed novel.

I think that the books compliment the game and vice versa. It's a win-win!
 
(Google Translator)

I do not know English so I can not write what I want.

I am surprised that your biggest objection is that the book is not typical, stamped and trivial. The game has an interesting story, but in many cases had to compromise.

Games are good, but can not compare to the books! You are referring to a TW1, that a lot of copies of books. For the game, these copies are very simplified.

For me the biggest failure in TW1 is the story of Alvin. It's a poor copy of Ciri... Very poor... Next, we have a repeat of the release of Strigoi ... Again, much less than in the story.

If you read the book, then you need to "notice" the stories of other characters, except the Geralt. You have such a subtle story like this about Essi, in the story "A little bit of sacrifice." In the game there is no such thing. In the book, such stories are many! You have to see them, and not only think, "Geralt, Geralt, where Geralt?"

You have the curvature of the psyche, typical for gamers, who first played and then read: "Geralt in the center", "Geralt-centrism", "Geralt, Geralt. Only Geralt, I want to read just about Geralt, and let only kills monsters!"

Stories about killer monster who does not complain of lack of work, and the monsters lurking around every corner, would be boring, stamp, trivial! Geralt would be transformed in Conan the Barbarian!

Sapkowski created a witcher, a killer monster who does not have many perks, because times are tough for his profession. This is an integral part of the personality of Geralt, an integral part of his problems, his moral dilemmas.

When do you consider that the game shows Geralt better because it gives him a horde of monsters to slaughter, and thus, Geralt is a real killer of monsters ... This means that, unfortunately, is an integral part of Geralt's personality in the game was fucked up ...

Hordes of monsters that is only a compromise for the game! Yes! You get a stamp situation! Hordes of monsters are present in every game! Are present in many fantasy books, in many films! You get a super muscular hero who bravely smashes it through the whole story, by the way saves the world from destruction!

I remember how fans of the book, criticized the REDs for the hordes of monsters, criticized for the fact that Geralt is not like in the books.

Your criticism of the book comes down to is that you want to get trite characters. You want Ciri, which you will be worried and take care, because it presented by Sapkowski is that bad ... Not badass (pleasant, unshaven hero fucking system, but with "their" rules) ... Ciri is so true ... morally ambiguous ...

Ciri is not nice, stamped badass. The Witcher is not a badass. Conan is a badass. And many, many heroes of Hollywood are badass. Badass guys are bad, dirty, fucking system, but in fact, resemble one another, friendly, and readers care about them. Ciri awakens in the minds of readers of a more mixed feelings.
 
nocny said:
If you read the book, then you need to "notice" the stories of other characters, except the Geralt. You have such a subtle story like this about Essi, in the story "A little bit of sacrifice." In the game there is no such thing. In the book, such stories are many! You have to see them, and not only think, "Geralt, Geralt, where Geralt?"

I thought the games did have some interesting side-stories about other characters. For example I thought Carmen's story arc was very interesting.
 
I never heard that you need read the novels for playing The withcher. If you do it great for you cause reading is a tool that cultivates personality, but it's your choice, not an obligation. And never, never the performance of a book will be perfectly acurate cause the author is a singular person who's trying to offer by words all he see in his mind to another singular person: the reader.
 
I see the point of your epic rant, but i disagree. I liked the novels for all (okay, most) of the things that pissed you off.
 
Apologies for the misleading topic title: It was supposed to be "Trust me, you only need the first two novels". That's what you get for stream of consciousness... I'll try to have it changed.

This is not a literature vs games discussion. Books all the way for me, baby. Anytime, anyplace. What I mean is that the games picked up on the essence of a given setting, that was established in the first two books, and did a far better job than the remaining volumes of the series. Sapkowski's books are perfectly fine pieces of literature in their own right; it's just that for me, the two games tell a far better witcher story. I feel that the witcher mythos is Sapkowski's finest creation, the one that gave him notoriety and the one that sets his world apart from the others, and that he neglected it as the story went on.

And yes, it is true that you won't get a lot of references and some of the game's characters won't resonate as much with you if you don't know them from the books. However, one of the things that made me write this topic is the constant clamoring for the English translation of the remaining books, or for CDP to please somehow get the books translated. I hoped to assure whomever might be concerned that I don't feel they're missing out on much by not having read the remainder of the saga. That is all.

Now, on to personal replies:

jaxboxdude said:
It does go away from the formula of him fighting monsters, removing curses and helping people when they have the coin I think that is the point. The shorts have to be short or else they would not be as good. I mean could you see any of those in a 300-500 page book? It just wouldn't work.

That is indeed my point. The witcher mythos works better as a collection of intertwined short stories. However, that doesn't mean Geralt can't take part in an epic tale rife with political intrigue; the games proved that. What I feel Sapkowski did wrong was to deprive him of pretty much everything that makes him a witcher.


jaxboxdude said:
I haven't read the books, but I take issue with the title of this thread.
No, I will not trust you. Why should I? I'll read the books and make my own judgement on their merit. It's rather foolish to trust only one anonymous person on the internet when deciding whether or not to read something.

No need to get all prickly, friend. I'm not telling you that you can't read them. Just giving you some insight into why I believe you don't need to; make of it what you will. Like I said, however, the topic title was misleading. My bad.

jaxboxdude said:
So basically you are just pissed off that Geralt in the books is not some "bad ass" superhero, also that he is not really main character of the series... Also in the books geralt and yenefer died... there was no "deusexmachinaville" it was more like personal heaven for them. You just misunderstand few last pages, probably lost in translation.

Again, no need to get all prickly. I'm not kicking your dog or fondling your mother. I'm not 'pissed off' and there's no reason you should be either. Below I expand on what I took issue with.

jaxboxdude said:
Quite the contrary, I'd say. What happend in novels, it has been Sapkowski throwing away most of the heroic fantasy' trapings, and creating actual literature, instead. ... Superhero is now in the situation where all his prowess are almost useless, and he needs to lern how to cope with the feeling of hopelessness. You could as well complain why, say, George Martin killed your favorite hero.
Sure, it is a matter of taste, you gonna to like the transition or not, and late Sapkowski do gravitate towards Umberto Eco, "Zmija" novel is a final example.

Are you somehow implying that the first two Witcher books had heroic fantasy trappings? Or that heroic fantasy can't be 'actual literature'? Because those are two very long shots you're taking there, my good man.

jaxboxdude said:
You have the curvature of the psyche, typical for gamers, who first played and then read: "Geralt in the center", "Geralt-centrism", "Geralt, Geralt. Only Geralt, I want to read just about Geralt, and let only kills monsters!"

Stories about killer monster who does not complain of lack of work, and the monsters lurking around every corner, would be boring, stamp, trivial! Geralt would be transformed in Conan the Barbarian!

Sapkowski created a witcher, a killer monster who does not have many perks, because times are tough for his profession. This is an integral part of the personality of Geralt, an integral part of his problems, his moral dilemmas.

I appreciate that English is not your first language and that you went through all that work to say what you think. I think I get what you were trying to say, so I will do my best not to feel insulted by 'typical of the gamers curvature of the psyche' and try to expand on your points. I will also leave the discussion on Ciri's merit as a character for another day, if you don't mind, as this post is already long enough.

You forgot that I first read 'The Last Wish' and only then played the Witcher I, so your first point does not stand. And I'll say it again: The witcher mythos - and Geralt in particular - is why people read Sapkowski in the first place, and why they bought the games. It's his setting's selling point, that which differentiates it from other books of its kind. So yes, I did buy the other books of the saga with a 'witcher-centric' frame of mind. That's what I had been led to expect by the previous two books, and that's what got me interested in the setting in the first place.

Funny that you mention Conan the Barbarian. Imagine, if you will, that you read two Conan stories and really like them. You know, Conan being a barbarian as only Conan can be. And then, the remaining books of the series are about Conan playing the role of a spy in the Stygian court, James Bond with sandals and loincloth. Or maybe Solomon Kane. Imagine Solomon Kane being Solomon Kane for two books and then assumes the role of a quaker colonist in America, fighting off Indians who are trying to steal his beets and kill his cows.

Sure, they can still kinda be themselves in those two roles, but that's not what you paid the price of admission for. You don't make preparations for meat loaf, invite guests and let them smell the delicious aroma from the kitchen, and then serve them fried fish.

Also, I strongly disagree on your points concerning Geralt. His perks are all about his personal moral code, his constantly being forced to choose the lesser of two evils, his loner life as the saviour of people who either mistrust or openly dislike him. Does that mean he couldn't or shouldn't figure in stories that take him out of his milieu? Certainly not. You can take the witcher out of the witching, but you should never, ever take the witching out of the witcher. It's just self-defeating, the way I see it.

jaxboxdude said:
I never heard that you need read the novels for playing The withcher. If you do it great for you cause reading is a tool that cultivates personality, but it's your choice, not an obligation. And never, never the performance of a book will be perfectly acurate cause the author is a singular person who's trying to offer by words all he see in his mind to another singular person: the reader.

Like I said, this is not about books vs games. I mostly posted this because plenty of people are constantly pining for the English translation of the books.
 
Aewyre said:
Are you somehow implying that the first two Witcher books had heroic fantasy trappings?
Didn't they? C'mon, the first short story starts with time honored tavern scene. Yeah, I loved the story at the time (and still like to return to it, once a couple of years), but mostly because I expected some bland debiut. If I was told, "now you'll read a mastepiece", it would be the hell of disapointment.
Aewyre said:
Or that heroic fantasy can't be 'actual literature'? Because those are two very long shots you're taking there, my good man.
It is literature, just not very good one. And I am glad that Ace did not stay at that level, that he continued to evolve. That he makes fun of convention, that he sometimes winks an eye to the reader, as if saying "LOL, calm down, it is just a book".
Let me guess, in witcher games you hated when Hermit was talking about "Bronze Dan", or Geralt joking about running barefooted on the volcano?
 
I came into the first Witcher game a Sapkowski virgin and enjoyed it immensely, so yes you don't need to read the books. However since then i've read the english translations (last wish and blood of the elves) and delved deep into the lore and on the whole they're a damn good read, so it doesn't hurt. Given time i'll finish reading the fan translations on the site, which are in some places better than the professional translations.
 
Sirnaq said:
Also in the books geralt and yenefer died... there was no "deusexmachinaville" it was more like personal heaven for them. You just misunderstand few last pages, probably lost in translation.
Don't blame it on the translation. The German is fine. They certainly "die" to the world they're in, but what happens after is up for debate what with the unreliable narrator and all. Aewyre has a particular take on what that means and is frustrated by it. I don't really agree with the interpretation, but Sapkowski does like to keep things flexible, so I see where it comes from.

I think Aewyre is right at least to say that you don't have to read any of the books to appreciate the games and get a lot out of the stories. CDPR really pulled off something spectacular on that count. An attentive player can piece the larger context together pretty well and still enjoy the immediate events of the games (personal experience with TW1). I still think it's better to read the books at some point because it helps expand one's perspective on the characters and their world and why CDPR does things a certain way sometimes.

I don't agree at all with telling people that they shouldn't want further English translations. When they do eventually come out, some people will be disappointed but others will enjoy them. It's fine to express your opinions, OP, and it's nice that you're trying to be helpful, but let people take their own chances with the material.
 
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