Tutors everywhere

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We have tutors for every faction's special card category (so Skellige and Monsters even have two tutors). We have artifact, special cards and witcher tutors. New Hattori will be the traps tutor of sorts. Some faction echo cards work like tutors too. But each of those is limited to its category and has additional limitations.
And then there's Oneiromancy. The ultimate tutor to rule them all. Echo, no limitations. Yes, it's high provision, yes, it breaks devotion. But devotion mechanics isn't strong enough to compensate for the Oneiromancy's "benefits" - I, at least, see oneiromancy in 9 out of 10 decks, while decks with devotions are disappearingly rare. And the cost isn't that high either - people just put some cheap trash cards they won't play anyway in their decks and rely of the same strong or near-broken card combos.
Is card draw RNG really this scary? I somehow manage without oneiromancy (except for my neutrals deck, where it helps me playing more cards and completing neutral quest faster). People don't learn to adapt to the cards they get (and they themselves put into decks), they just play the cards they want. This leads to rows and rows of same decks played the same way. It's not even a matter of winning or losing - it's just extremely boring.
My question is - am I the only one being tired of this? Because Oneiromancy remains untouched by the devs despite meeting all criteria of an overplayed card.
 
I've always thought it's not a good design, and I never even use anymore (and never did in a "real" deck) it because of that. I don't care that I have less consistency, not like I play in high ranks anyway. Not the only card I refuse to use for such a reason, either, but that's a different topic.

The only things I like about Oneiromancy are that it's great food for Squirrel, and that it can trigger Serpent Trap and win me the game.
 
The only things I like about Oneiromancy are that it's great food for Squirrel, and that it can trigger Serpent Trap and win me the game.

Squirrel's existence is almost entirely defined by echo cards. I'd prefer echoes removed and some more graveyard manipulation mechanics added instead, so squirrel could banish discarded cards that are waiting to be used, not just returned to the deck.
A for the trap - yes, it's a nice "back at ya!" effect. But I rarely play traps (actually, just for the artifact quest) - because I don't like elves. :)
 
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I'll do something philosophical and give you your main argument as a gift:
You're right, Oneiromancy is in every deck, it's overpowered etc.

BUT I still like CDPRs new philosophy to power up the other ways to play instead of nerfing good stuff.
If you like consistency, there you go, have FUN.
But here are some new and strong devotion cards (like in this patch), they're FUN too.

So you may be right logically, but I want to have FUN.
 
I'll do something philosophical and give you your main argument as a gift:
You're right, Oneiromancy is in every deck, it's overpowered etc.

BUT I still like CDPRs new philosophy to power up the other ways to play instead of nerfing good stuff.
If you like consistency, there you go, have FUN.
But here are some new and strong devotion cards (like in this patch), they're FUN too.

So you may be right logically, but I want to have FUN.
I'm totally fine with fun. And yes, me having fun by building deck that should work (almost) regardless of draws i get is not the only way. I understand the benefits of tutors - they support certain consistent gameplay styles (like druids with a lot of alchemy or NR decks with siege weapons). The problem with Oneiromancy for me is that it allows players to not learn the cards the game offers, instead focusing on a small set of working (I give them that) card combos. It's almost painful to watch enemy cursor hover over almost every card I play sometimes. :(
Maybe removing echo from Oneiromancy (and other echo cards) while lowering its cost will keep this card alive and "fun" while encouraging players to add backup schemes into their decks? But then again - for me variety over predictability i just the most fun.
 
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I'm totally fine with fun. And yes, me having fun by building deck that should work (almost) regardless of draws i get is not the only way. I understand the benefits of tutors - they support certain consistent gameplay styles (like druids with a lot of alchemy or NR decks with siege weapons). The problem with Oneiromancy for me is that it allows players to not learn the cards the game offers, instead focusing on a small set of working (I give them that) card combos. It's almost painful to watch enemy cursor hover over almost every card I play sometimes. :(
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That being said certain combo decks would immediately be too inconsistent without it.
If one does not get Foltest Round 1 it effectively becomes mediocre to bad.
All those cards like Foltest could not exist in any remotely viable way without Oneiromancy.
So I would argue it is the opposite of what you state, this allows more variety, given that otherwise only cards that always work (or past Round 1, like SK Warriors) would be viable.

Also if you want to go for pure power you would want cheaper Tutors or none at all, given that 13 provisions is not exactly cheap, in fact people play Oneiromancy, because it becomes better if you miss your important cards.
 
That being said certain combo decks would immediately be too inconsistent without it.
If one does not get Foltest Round 1 it effectively becomes mediocre to bad.
All those cards like Foltest could not exist in any remotely viable way without Oneiromancy.
So I would argue it is the opposite of what you state, this allows more variety, given that otherwise only cards that always work (or past Round 1, like SK Warriors) would be viable.

Also if you want to go for pure power you would want cheaper Tutors or none at all, given that 13 provisions is not exactly cheap, in fact people play Oneiromancy, because it becomes better if you miss your important cards.
Why not getting Foltest round 1 will make him weaker? He just won't be able to support same self-drawing cards being played round 1 and then replayed again. But by getting Foltest later you can pair him with one type of self-drawing cards in one round while using other types in other rounds. So what I mean - without echo tutor, you can play Foltest round 1 if you get him and go for your main option. If you don't get him round 1, you aim for another strategy, perhaps less powerful, but you have options. If you use echo tutor, you always go for the "better" scenario, playing it again and again.
My Foltest example may be bad, for I have not played him at all yet. But look at ursine ritual decks (especially discard ones - and I saw max one or two non-discard deck with ritual) from last season - they always use Oneiromancy to draw Cerys round 1. I saw no exceptions, sadly. If this is consistency you aim for, then yes, I choose not too choose it.
 
[...] But look at ursine ritual decks from last season - they always use Oneiromancy to draw Cerys round 1. I saw no exceptions, sadly. If this is consistency you aim for, then yes, I choose not too choose it.
But in that case it is not the consistency that is the problem.
 
You're right. But others like consistent decks. So they have the option to use Oneiromancy and other tutors.
It's just an option, you choose not to choose.
Yes, because players too rarely use Oneiromancy with their unique self-made decks. I saw same decks played again and again with Oneiromancy used to draw the same cards again and again. It's like playing against training AI, but even more boring. So I try to make at least my part of the table less predictable.
Gladly I've already made it to Pro once (with my own decks without those tutors), so I have all the avatars I wanted and don't need to amass victories to get into Pro - where I actually saw the same bot players.
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But in that case it is not the consistency that is the problem.
Well, in a way it is. They want to play their own chosen small set of cards regardless of any circumstances. Tutors make it easier, echo tutors make it almost effortless. I remember when Cerys became the monstrosity she is today (because her original ability was considered too weak, I presume), but with only King's orders to draw her her use was limited.
 
[...]
Well, in a way it is. They want to play their own chosen small set of cards regardless of any circumstances. Tutors make it easier, echo tutors make it almost effortless. I remember when Cerys became the monstrosity she is today (because her original ability was considered too weak, I presume), but with only King's orders to draw her her use was limited.
Cerys ability was just a joke before she got buffed.
The issue however is not that playing Cerys Round 1 is consistent, it is that playing Cerys Round 1 is possibly too strong, although with Lippy falling out of favor most Cerys are kept for Round 3 if possible.
Opening Cerys is about 50%, with Oneiro that becomes about 75%, I do not see how that alone is an issue, if the 50% before would not be an issue.
 
Cerys ability was just a joke before she got buffed.
The issue however is not that playing Cerys Round 1 is consistent, it is that playing Cerys Round 1 is possibly too strong, although with Lippy falling out of favor most Cerys are kept for Round 3 if possible.
Opening Cerys is about 50%, with Oneiro that becomes about 75%, I do not see how that alone is an issue, if the 50% before would not be an issue.
I don't know, I played old Cerys just fine, stopped using her after the "buff" (that actually broke her). And yes - not even "bad" draw can protect you from seeing this (or any other) broken card round 1 and then again. Tutors make not only consistent decks easier to use, they help broken decks too (and sometimes those two kinds are the same actually). Decks and (which is worse) the ways they are played become rows of clones. And yes, Cerys is strong, but not too strong, good engine can overcome her points quite fast - but seeing her in every ursine ritual deck makes me yawn so hard it almost dislocated my jaw.
 
That being said certain combo decks would immediately be too inconsistent without it.
If one does not get Foltest Round 1 it effectively becomes mediocre to bad.
All those cards like Foltest could not exist in any remotely viable way without Oneiromancy.
I'm confused. Doesn't Foltest have Devotion?
 
As if most tutor-oriented players care for devotion.

To repeat my point:

BUT I still like CDPRs new philosophy to power up the other ways to play instead of nerfing good stuff.
If you like consistency, there you go (with Oneiromancy), have FUN.
But here are some new and strong devotion cards (like in this patch), they're FUN too.

I'm sure there will be more and better Devotion decks. Eist and Jutta with Blaze of Glory only work with Devotion for example.
 
I'm confused. Doesn't Foltest have Devotion?
Yes, however the devotion part is only a small buff and since both versions you would build (around Commandos and Dun Banner) have to "Escape, then Enter", in case they do not open their tools, it is a lot more important to reduce the odds of immediately losing by not drawing a usable Round 1 hand, given that in a Round 2 the setup will not be possible and the entire deck collapses in that case.
Honestly I am usually not even considering to run Oneiromancy, if Devotion is actually worth the effort (new Spies, Warriors, Vampires etc).
 
To repeat my point:

BUT I still like CDPRs new philosophy to power up the other ways to play instead of nerfing good stuff.
If you like consistency, there you go (with Oneiromancy), have FUN.
But here are some new and strong devotion cards (like in this patch), they're FUN too.

I'm sure there will be more and better Devotion decks. Eist and Jutta with Blaze of Glory only work with Devotion for example.

Yes, I got the "different kinds of fun" point and totally agree with it. As for devotion - I'm a huge fan, so I can only hope more people will see the benefits of faction loyalty.
The problem I see is that abundancy of tutors breeds players that cannot play at all without their specific favorite cards on specific rounds and turns. They cling to them, making their decks easy victims of the infamous mill decks (or way too predictable - like why did they always play Kolgrim on his precise adrenaline turn even when playing against traps? a simple fire trap is waiting on that turn for the poor guy, killing him and in 90% of cases forcing the "consistent" NG player to start having sudden "connection problems").

To wrap this discussion on my side - my final issue with "overly consistent" decks it's that they are no fun to play against (especially when you see specific decks thousands of times). But the only thing I can really do (since many players and devs seem happy with the situation and are having fun with it) is to never send them GG.
 
Imo Oneiromancy should cost even more. This isn't Magic the Gathering: you don't need a load of tutors.

The best use for the card is in combo decks, and those should generally play cards with a lower cost, where it's affordable.

In a way, it's keeping metadecks in check because you can pack some "sideboard" cards that you always mull.

In the end they should just work on raplacing "non-ranked" with an actually fun mode. How about inventing a format where cards like Oneiromancy are banned? (but there's always draft beta, isn't there? :p)
 
Imo Oneiromancy should cost even more. This isn't Magic the Gathering: you don't need a load of tutors.

The best use for the card is in combo decks, and those should generally play cards with a lower cost, where it's affordable.

In a way, it's keeping metadecks in check because you can pack some "sideboard" cards that you always mull.

In the end they should just work on raplacing "non-ranked" with an actually fun mode. How about inventing a format where cards like Oneiromancy are banned? (but there's always draft beta, isn't there? :p)
Maybe it should cost less, but lose the "echo" part? That way it could still save consistent players from an abysmal r1 draws - but only once.
And current seasonal mode is luckily tutor-less. Yet i still miss the bear fights from 2019.
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Yes, however the devotion part is only a small buff and since both versions you would build (around Commandos and Dun Banner) have to "Escape, then Enter", in case they do not open their tools, it is a lot more important to reduce the odds of immediately losing by not drawing a usable Round 1 hand, given that in a Round 2 the setup will not be possible and the entire deck collapses in that case.
Honestly I am usually not even considering to run Oneiromancy, if Devotion is actually worth the effort (new Spies, Warriors, Vampires etc).
If you immediately lose because of one bad draw, you're a terrible player. BTW, met rows of your favorite consistent one trick ponies today - all playing Foltest r1, spamming stripes, resurrecting them wirth Pavetta r2, then resurrecting Pavetta r3 and playing Roche. Such diversity, much fun.
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To repeat my point:

BUT I still like CDPRs new philosophy to power up the other ways to play instead of nerfing good stuff.
If you like consistency, there you go (with Oneiromancy), have FUN.
But here are some new and strong devotion cards (like in this patch), they're FUN too.

I'm sure there will be more and better Devotion decks. Eist and Jutta with Blaze of Glory only work with Devotion for example.
The only flaw of your logic is that but always adding new cards devs never stop to try to balance the game. You hope that new cards will help its current broken state, but they only create more broken decks.
 
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The echo tutors are a lazy band-aid solution to bronzes being too weak compared to high-end golds.
It ultimately allows what used to be perfectly fine risky decks like Pavetta/Lippy to run rampant.
High risk high reward decks do not exist anymore in Gwent because players who didn't like risks wanted to play them and subsequently became upset when they realized they were in fact risky. Now there is just reward.

What the people defending the echo tutors always leave out is the fact that we had a fair amount of tutor options before, only they didn't guarantee you to play anything you want anytime you want TWICE. Anyone remember Royal Decree? Matta?

I'm fine with category tutors that come at a cost like Quen. And tutors that are there to thin out your options a bit like War Council.
But with MM the devs did as they tend to which is to go overboard to the extreme and effectively powercrept these perfectly fine tutors to the point where every single top tier deck is now forced to include universal tutors although this was already starting to become an issue before this (Call of the Forest).
 
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