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Two weeks after: your thoughts on CDPR's vision of Cyberpunk

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Rawls

Rawls

Moderator
#241
Jul 8, 2018
Snowflakez said:
I agree with TW3, but definitely not with Mass Effect. Very, very linear experience, but part of that feeling may come from how small the world is (not just in size, but in scope, amount of side quests and interesting characters, etc.)
Click to expand...
ME1's main quest was non-linear. You could compete the main quests in different orders and make different choices within all of them that led to different results both in that game and in later games. However, once you stole the Normandy, it was pretty linear from there.

ME2 & ME3 were definitely more linear in the main plot ... but it's the companion quests and the variables there in that supply the different feel in different play-throughs. At least IMO.

I preferred ME1s main plot structure as compared to the others. But the bottom line is that for me, those games and TW3 are the only recent RPGs that both made me feel connected to the characters and story, and made it feel like it was my story ... simultaneously. I guess that's the sweet spot I'm talking about. Where the story affects the player, and feels like the player's story. Getting both of those is hard. And those games are the only ones that have done both in the last decade or so.
 
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Snowflakez

Snowflakez

Forum veteran
#242
Jul 8, 2018
Rawls said:
ME1's main quest was non-linear. You could compete the main quests in different orders and make different choices within all of them that led to different results both in that game and in later games. However, once you stole the Normandy, it was pretty linear from there.

ME2 & ME3 were definitely more linear in the main plot ... but it's the companion quests and the variables there in that supply the different feel in different play-throughs. At least IMO.

I preferred ME1s main plot structure as compared to the others. But the bottom line is that for me, those games and TW3 are the only recent RPGs that both made me feel connected to the characters and story, and made it feel like it was my story ... simultaneously. I guess that's the sweet spot I'm talking about. Where the story affects the player, and feels like the player's story. Getting both of those is hard. And those games are the only ones that have done both in the last decade or so.
Click to expand...
Ah, okay. I'll take your word for it, I never played ME1. Slightly off-topic, but would you say it holds up as a game worth playing now? I found the gameplay of 2 and 3 to be adequate, but never bothered with 1.
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#243
Jul 8, 2018
Snowflakez said:
Ah, okay. I'll take your word for it, I never played ME1. Slightly off-topic, but would you say it holds up as a game worth playing now? I found the gameplay of 2 and 3 to be adequate, but never bothered with 1.
Click to expand...
You pretty much have to play 1 to properly get into the story of 2 and 3.

Gameplay-wise... it's probably pretty generic by now, compared to later games that did many elements it featured better. Plus, some of its gameplay elements seeped into other franchises, like Fallout.
 
Rawls

Rawls

Moderator
#244
Jul 8, 2018
Snowflakez said:
Slightly off-topic, but would you say it holds up as a game worth playing now?
Click to expand...
The combat & graphics are dated now. It's not really a cover shooter even and plays very different from ME2 & 3. Vehicular Combat is REALLY rough. I mean the Mako is a legend for being pretty bad. Oh and elevator rides take forever. Otherwise it's great. ME3 is my favorite of the series, but that's mostly because I loved the gameplay, the the groundwork had been laid to love the stories from ME 1 & 2. I feel like that series is one that has to be played from the start to be appreciated. The personal stories of each game effects the other games.

EDIT: It's also a series where the DLCs are super important in ME2 and 3. Lair of the Shadow Broker, Overlord, Javik, Kasumi, Zaeed, Leviathan & Citadel are almost necessary to get the full experience (PS yes EA is that evil). Omega, Bring Down the Sky and Arrival are decent too, and I always have them installed ... but I wouldn't call them necessary. The others can be safely ignored IMO.
 
Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
Snowflakez

Snowflakez

Forum veteran
#245
Jul 8, 2018
Cool. Thank you both. I have the full trilogy on Origin (shudder), so I'll download 'em and start from scratch this weekend.
 
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metalmaniac21

metalmaniac21

Senior user
#246
Jul 8, 2018
Loostreaks said:
( What's funny is how even Chris Avellone, criticized design of Fallout's rigid system of skill checks and how it's a poor, outdated design from player engagement perspective. Literally from the mouth of person who had a hand in creating it.)
Click to expand...
Meat fights the bone? Bees rise against the mead? Chris Avellone is a writer, he's not a system designer and not even Fallout creator (that would be Tim Cain).
Loostreaks said:
Second, CDPR is designing Action rpgs..
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Action RPGs is an RPG subgenre with 'Action', prefix means that the player also should git gut. The rest falls under what I said before.
Loostreaks said:
Not sure if you actually understood what is talked about here. Poster said that rpgs have to completely open story "to be considered rpgs": that is true for sandbox games, nearly every rpg has a predetermined story path, even with player choices taken into account.
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But I was talking at you when you said that RPG is a broad term and so, I guess(?), hard to classify or even draw a line. I just disagreed with it.
Snowflakez said:
Is this what you meant when you were referring to "changes in direction" and such? If not, could you PM me your theory? Kofe would probably be interested too.
Click to expand...
Nothing too special. I think what happened is that somewhere at late 2011 CDPR decided to do something different and wrote a script and a sort of pitch a cyberpunk game, a some sort of FPS-RPG based on a familiar PnP setting as a plan B in case if The Witcher 3 fails but on a smaller scope and I guess compensated it for having an actual RPG system tied to it. The Witcher 3 didn't fail, moreso dictated the next direction to follow and so, previous preproduction material had to go or got reworked, the game was redone into a known hueg sandbox action game with voiced protagonist and you know the rest. Or so I presume.
 
kofeiiniturpa

kofeiiniturpa

Mentor
#247
Jul 8, 2018
Restlessdingo32 said:
It's far more difficult to develop a strong narrative or plot around an undefined character, is the problem. ...
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I don't think it's any more difficult. It just depends on how the narrative is approached. With an undefined character, you'd want a narrative that relies on the characters personal goals and a world that has interesting, but mostly optional things to do and achieve and meddle with. The player character is more like a wild card that enters the scene (or not, if he chooses not to) and affects how things roll with his actions.

Skyrim (and Bethesda) doesn't give a damn about storytelling, it has a narrative arc because it's accustomed to have one, but it is a game about just "doing stuff". So in that light the comparison to Witcher 3 - a game that is HIGHLY narrative driven and predefined - is a bit unfair. A more fair comparison is to Fallout or Fallout 2 where the story builds up as you go and how you choose to go and the ending provides the long term consequences. There's an interesting world to explore, an effective narrative that's mostly player driven, but the predefined path is really, really open. You get just the amount of depth of storytelling as you choose to.
 
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Snowflakez

Snowflakez

Forum veteran
#248
Jul 8, 2018
kofeiiniturpa said:
I don't think it's any more difficult. It just depends on how the narrative is approached. With an undefined character, you'd want a narrative that relies on the characters personal goals and a world that has interesting, but mostly optional things to do and achieve and meddle with. The player character is more like a wild card that enters the scene (or not, if he chooses not to) and affects how things roll with his actions.

Skyrim (and Bethesda) doesn't give a damn about storytelling, it has a narrative arc because it's accustomed to have one, but it is a game about just "doing stuff". So in that light the comparison to Witcher 3 - a game that is HIGHLY narrative driven and predefined - is a bit unfair. A more fair comparison is to Fallout or Fallout 2 where the story builds up as you go and how you choose to go and the ending provides the long term consequences. There's an interesting world to explore, an effective narrative that's mostly player driven, but the predefined path is really, really open. You get just the amount of depth of storytelling as you choose to.
Click to expand...
If you had a game with CDPR's level of storytelling but Bethesda's approach to "making your own story," that would be one for the ages. Plus RPG systems, of course.

I hope someone makes that game some day. I truly think it would appeal to everyone, not just hardcore RPG fans. Good storytelling + player freedom? Yes, please.

CDPR initially said the story would be low-level, and said a few other things that led me to believe they were going for a "doing many regular quests builds the bigger story" approach, but it seems they would prefer something more linear here.
 
Motsie

Motsie

Forum regular
#249
Jul 8, 2018
Isn't that what Witcher 3 already did, though? As far as 'making your own story' goes, there's a lot of things that occur as you go through the story which can directly and indirectly impact the people around you.
 
Snowflakez

Snowflakez

Forum veteran
#250
Jul 8, 2018
BigGuyCIA said:
Isn't that what Witcher 3 already did, though? As far as 'making your own story' goes, there's a lot of things that occur as you go through the story which can directly and indirectly impact the people around you.
Click to expand...
Not in the way we're asking, no.
 
kofeiiniturpa

kofeiiniturpa

Mentor
#251
Jul 8, 2018
BigGuyCIA said:
Isn't that what Witcher 3 already did, though? As far as 'making your own story' goes, there's a lot of things that occur as you go through the story which can directly and indirectly impact the people around you.
Click to expand...
Witcher 3 had quite strict orders on what to do and where to go for the story to go as intended. It did have choices here and there, but not on the level a more freeform RPG (like Fallout for example) should; Witcher isn't really like that (by intent), so it not going that way is understandable.

Cyberpunk, however, should definitely go that way with its narrative drive, rather than going the Witcher route. Even if CDPR has decided to give us a character rather than letting us make one (to what ever degree that's the case... to some it is for sure).
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#252
Jul 8, 2018
Snowflakez said:
If you had a game with CDPR's level of storytelling but Bethesda's approach to "making your own story," that would be one for the ages. Plus RPG systems, of course.
Click to expand...
Aren't those opposite approaches?
 
ooodrin

ooodrin

Forum veteran
#253
Jul 8, 2018
Not trying to be condescending, but asking for narrative quality of The Witcher series in combination with freedom of some sandbox-oriented RPGs in addition to great voice acting, cinematics and graphics that will make current gen consoles cry for help is about as realistic as asking for amphibious Rolls Royce with speed of F1 cars. Nether CDPR nor any other developer have the resources to pull it off.
 
Snowflakez

Snowflakez

Forum veteran
#254
Jul 8, 2018
BaalNergal said:
Aren't those opposite approaches?
Click to expand...
No, why would they be?

Bethesda's writing has always been pretty bad. Uninteresting "fetch" side quests, a main story that doesn't grab your attention in any way.

Slap CDPR's writers in there and have them create engrossing, dark, and complex stories, add more RPG elements (bring attributes and actual skills in).

Recipe for a damn good game.

ooodrin said:
Not trying to be condescending, but asking for narrative quality of The Witcher series in combination with freedom of some sandbox-oriented RPGs in addition to production value (namely graphics) that will make current gen consoles cry for help is about as realistic as asking for amphibious Rolls Royce with speed of F1 cars. Nether CDPR nor any other developer have the resources to pull it off.
Click to expand...
It's a good thing I wasn't asking anybody (especially not CDPR) for that, then, huh? ;)
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#255
Jul 8, 2018
Snowflakez said:
No, why would they be?

Bethesda's writing has always been pretty bad. Uninteresting "fetch" side quests, a main story that doesn't grab your attention in any way.

Slap CDPR's writers in there and have them create engrossing, dark, and complex stories, add more RPG elements (bring attributes and actual skills in).

Recipe for a damn good game.
Click to expand...
Bethesda can do some pretty good writing when they try. Some of the quests in Skyrim and Fallout 4 were very well written. Just that not trying to tell a good story is part of their approach to making your own story. You make up your own reasons for why you are doing the quest rather than relying on the game's reasons.

CDPR actually puts in effort, which is part of why their stories tend to have much lower player freedom. Rather than assuming you're going to make up your own reasons, or even mod your own reasons into the game, they assume you are there for the story they intend to tell.

That's why it's opposite approaches. And why mixing them might not work. I mean, I can see how it might be a good game, but I can also easily see how it would be an unplayable disaster.
 
Snowflakez

Snowflakez

Forum veteran
#256
Jul 8, 2018
BaalNergal said:
That's why it's opposite approaches. And why mixing them might not work. I mean, I can see how it might be a good game, but I can also easily see how it would be an unplayable disaster.
Click to expand...
I can't predict the future, but remember, this is a hypothetical game.
We aren't mixing game design styles in my specific game example. Just story and writing quality, specifically in relation to "mini" stores and side quests.

I see no way in which a Bethesda-style game would be compromised by having better, more interesting side stories. It does not hinder the player's ability to make their own story, it just makes them more engaged with the mini-stories throughout the world, as CDPR accomplished with the Witcher series. The main story is another beast entirely, and not something I can get into here.

I didn't mean to malign Bethesda's writers too much, by the way. I agree that they've created some compelling stories. My point was more that their writers don't really seem to approach writing with the creation of compelling stories in mind. Rather, they just make "stuff" that feels believable for the player to do (Bandits burned our sawmill, we need logs, or bears killed our cows, we need meat) so they can maintain their suspension of disbelief.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic, so apologies.

I know it won't happen with 2077, but I do think CDPR could benefit from some elements of Bethesda's games.

Game dev budgets, unfortunately, seem to go towards improving graphics over time. So, I'm not confident we will ever see a game like the one I'm suggesting, because that's not where the budgets go.
 
Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
Restlessdingo32

Restlessdingo32

Senior user
#257
Jul 8, 2018
kofeiiniturpa said:
I don't think it's any more difficult. It just depends on how the narrative is approached. With an undefined character, you'd want a narrative that relies on the characters personal goals and a world that has interesting, but mostly optional things to do and achieve and meddle with. The player character is more like a wild card that enters the scene (or not, if he chooses not to) and affects how things roll with his actions.
Click to expand...
It's more difficult for the reason you just stated. The narrative has to be written with the characters in mind. Throwing any character into a story can lead to a narrative the character just does not fit into. An altruistic, empathetic, hero works with a story involving heroic deeds. A self-serving psychopath does not fit with this type of narrative. You end up with a character whom is, well, out of character.

When you have a set, well developed character the attributes, wants, desires, and persona of this character is known ahead of time. It's far easier to look at this character and create a narrative they fit into appropriately (or vice versa).

Most games with multiple character types and personas you can pick either limit these character types, so they can account for each option in the narrative, or give a plethora of options and develop a story where the character persona isn't a focal point, or completely irrelevant. This to say the story is just there, anyone could be integrated into it and the character is just there.

kofeiiniturpa said:
Skyrim (and Bethesda) doesn't give a damn about storytelling, it has a narrative arc because it's accustomed to have one, but it is a game about just "doing stuff". So in that light the comparison to Witcher 3 - a game that is HIGHLY narrative driven and predefined - is a bit unfair. A more fair comparison is to Fallout or Fallout 2 where the story builds up as you go and how you choose to go and the ending provides the long term consequences. There's an interesting world to explore, an effective narrative that's mostly player driven, but the predefined path is really, really open. You get just the amount of depth of storytelling as you choose to.
Click to expand...
Yes, Skyrim writing wasn't anywhere near the level of W3. This isn't the reason for the comparison. In Skyrim the focus is on the character living in the world, and experiencing a very large number of small, often unrelated, narratives or mini-stories. You run across a random mine owner and clear out the giant, evil spiders in his mine. You join the thieves guild to steal things, because, uh... stealing things is fun. The main plot is secondary to all of this and completely optional. Skyrim is less of an RPG and more of an exploration, adventure game.

The main reason for the comparison was to show the difference between a single, developed character, in Geralt, vs whatever the player wants to be. Most games taking the latter path do exactly what Skyrim did. They focus on unrelated stories, exploration, getting by and spend far less effort establishing any well developed narrative.

The other reason for the comparison is because in W3 you actually felt an attachment to the characters and the story. I honestly cannot think of any highly open ended games where this was accomplished on a comparable level. You could argue this is based entirely on poor writing or narrative design. There is no doubt this plays a role. It's also partly because getting a video game story to accomplish this, and draw you into it to this level, is close to impossible to pull off when you give so much freedom to the player you cannot account for all of it in the writing.
 
Motsie

Motsie

Forum regular
#258
Jul 9, 2018
Snowflakez said:
I can't predict the future, but remember, this is a hypothetical game.
Click to expand...
It's promising since they've insisted that despite the FPP it's not an FPS first, rather it's an RPG first and foremost and everything else is supportive of that.
 
Lexys2077

Lexys2077

Rookie
#259
Jul 9, 2018
.
 
Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
Rawls

Rawls

Moderator
#260
Jul 9, 2018
To way over simplify things, the problem I see with marrying Bethesda and CDPR games is that one focuses on width of story and the other focuses on depth. One you can go off and do anything. The other your character has a purpose. To have that type of purpose in multiple ways of handling situations for a very wide story would be very challenging. Sure you could go for both ... but it would take a huge amount of investment ... and I'm not sure a console disc could handle it ... making the financials problematic.
 
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