Ringlin;n7239870 said:
Well, Tempo isn't just the pace of the game, it is the pace of threats in the game as well. In Gwent examples of Tempo Plays are Isengrim and Margarita. They turn other normal actions into an additional threat. Those tempo threats can then be answered with things like Manticore Venom, which is a CA play (countering the tempo advantage). Giant Toad eating Olgierd would be an example (counterable, of course) of a Tempo and Card Advantage play. The tempo of going straight to a 11 STR unit is strong. If the opponent needs more than one card to counter that tempo advantage, then it has become card advantage. If they just pass, then it remains a Tempo advantage moving into round 2 (at the cost of card advantage since you are down 1 and the opponent hasn't played anything).
Tempo and Card Advantage are inextricably intertwined, but neither is truly a term for just "How many turns can I make a play in the round" (which is generally number of cards in hand, but not the same thing - see decoy, spies, etc). The ratio (you/opp) of "plays per round" is the portion that is fairly Gwent-unique and not entirely defined though being named "Pancake" (I suggest PR - Pancake Ratio - for short from here on out).
shdcs1975;n7237440 said:
Last Wish and similar would be examples of Card Filtering, you are not increasing your number of cards, but you are increasing the chance of finding the card(s) you need in <given situation>.
Caretaker is just a straight tempo play, with the possibility of resource denial if the opponent is playing an Archetype that uses the GY as a resource.
Last edited:
Laveley;n7237680 said:Exactly. Call whatever you want. Card advantage is card advantage and card advantage is this game is how much cards you have in hand compared to your opponent.
You can call it tempo, you can call it mammoth, you can call it mother, you can call it whatever you want.... doesnt change the fact that whats important in this game is how much cards you have on hand compared to your opponent.
So lets just simplify and call it card advantage.
The real reason for my post was not really what you call what, but mixing up two different things
Right, which is why I said it "refers to controlling the pace of the game." I like the definition from the MtG link above of "board presence."Treamayne;n7242340 said:
As far as this thread is concerned, the reference to pace is why it's called "tempo (and why most players use "tempo" to refer to what's happening on the board rather than in the hand).
Yes, but be aware that your explanationaspsnake0;n7243850 said:The real reason for my post was not really what you call what, but mixing up two different things
aspsnake0;n7243850 said:
uses those terms in the opposite way of most card discussions. As said above, you can define them however you want: the key concepts are board presence and in-hand options.
Card adventage vs. tempo
Card adventage vs. tempo aka "Why everybody plays spies, but when I use them I lose terribly?"
In gwent there exist a concept of card adventage that is similar to all other card games - and is quite natural. You gain adventage if you use less cards than opponent o achieve something, because you have more cards left to do your stuff. If you play 3 Wild Hunt Riders, and buff them twice with Thunderbolt Potion, while you opponent plays 3 Wild Hunt Riders, and buffs each with Swallow Potion you rached the same board state. But you used 3 cards, and oppoent used 4 cards, and you can probably win that round. If you Scorch opponents Eradin, you just exchanged 1 card for 1 card, which is OK. But if Scorch oppoents Eredin, that is buffed with Swallow Potion you killed 2 opponets cards with just one, gaining an adventage.
Spies and decoy cards are terrible in this mindset. Imagine you both play decks consisting only of Redanian Knights. Would you add Prince Stennis to this deck? The answer is no. Imagine last card on your hand is Prince Stennis. You play him, you draw Redanian Knight, you play Redanian Knight. You used up 1 card and gained 0 adventage in strength. You would have wanted just another Knight instead and gain some adventage. Same is true for Decoy - by Decoying your Redanian Knight, and replaying him you just lose 1 card and gain 0 strength. You would have just wanted another Redanian Knight!. (Decoy can be usted with powerful cards like medics, or as healing etc. to negate this effect and even generate card adventage. Spies can't)
So why everybody plays those cards? Because they generate another important resource - tempo. In fact they sacrifice card adventage in order to gain some tempo. And what is tempo? Tempo is the ability to play card last. You have probably experienced this before - you have strong melee lane, and your last card on hand is First Light. You play it, fetch just another Redanian Knight, the opponent plays Biting Frost as his last card stealing the game. There are so many powerful combinations, that can be used, but the weather is the easiest and the most powerful example.
Spies and decoy (and Scoia'teal ability, and many other cards and passing at the right moment) can generate tempo. Basically each turn you are forced to use a card from your hand, but by playing Prince Stennis you cheat it. You use card, that replaces itself, therefore swinging the privelage of playing last card one step closer to you. It does not always work (eg. opponent already passed) but when used correctly you will be sure to have the adventage.
This is what I dislike in Gwent ATM - there are too many ways to just swing the entire board that you cannot answer if you dont have moves left (aard + fog nerf plz). There are decks that rely solely on tempo and win despite generating huge amounts of card disadventage - they can wipe everything you do in a few last moves.
But if your deck cannot utilize tempo adventage to pull off something sick (or prevent opponent from doing so) then the chances are playing spies will hurt you more than it is worth it. And crafting Avallac'h as first legendary is a terrible idea.
Card adventage vs. tempo aka "Why everybody plays spies, but when I use them I lose terribly?"
In gwent there exist a concept of card adventage that is similar to all other card games - and is quite natural. You gain adventage if you use less cards than opponent o achieve something, because you have more cards left to do your stuff. If you play 3 Wild Hunt Riders, and buff them twice with Thunderbolt Potion, while you opponent plays 3 Wild Hunt Riders, and buffs each with Swallow Potion you rached the same board state. But you used 3 cards, and oppoent used 4 cards, and you can probably win that round. If you Scorch opponents Eradin, you just exchanged 1 card for 1 card, which is OK. But if Scorch oppoents Eredin, that is buffed with Swallow Potion you killed 2 opponets cards with just one, gaining an adventage.
Spies and decoy cards are terrible in this mindset. Imagine you both play decks consisting only of Redanian Knights. Would you add Prince Stennis to this deck? The answer is no. Imagine last card on your hand is Prince Stennis. You play him, you draw Redanian Knight, you play Redanian Knight. You used up 1 card and gained 0 adventage in strength. You would have wanted just another Knight instead and gain some adventage. Same is true for Decoy - by Decoying your Redanian Knight, and replaying him you just lose 1 card and gain 0 strength. You would have just wanted another Redanian Knight!. (Decoy can be usted with powerful cards like medics, or as healing etc. to negate this effect and even generate card adventage. Spies can't)
So why everybody plays those cards? Because they generate another important resource - tempo. In fact they sacrifice card adventage in order to gain some tempo. And what is tempo? Tempo is the ability to play card last. You have probably experienced this before - you have strong melee lane, and your last card on hand is First Light. You play it, fetch just another Redanian Knight, the opponent plays Biting Frost as his last card stealing the game. There are so many powerful combinations, that can be used, but the weather is the easiest and the most powerful example.
Spies and decoy (and Scoia'teal ability, and many other cards and passing at the right moment) can generate tempo. Basically each turn you are forced to use a card from your hand, but by playing Prince Stennis you cheat it. You use card, that replaces itself, therefore swinging the privelage of playing last card one step closer to you. It does not always work (eg. opponent already passed) but when used correctly you will be sure to have the adventage.
This is what I dislike in Gwent ATM - there are too many ways to just swing the entire board that you cannot answer if you dont have moves left (aard + fog nerf plz). There are decks that rely solely on tempo and win despite generating huge amounts of card disadventage - they can wipe everything you do in a few last moves.
But if your deck cannot utilize tempo adventage to pull off something sick (or prevent opponent from doing so) then the chances are playing spies will hurt you more than it is worth it. And crafting Avallac'h as first legendary is a terrible idea.
Well written, but I do want to add a few things.
As mentioned in another thread, card advantage and tempo go hand-in-hand in Gwent. Basically, if you have a card advantage, the opponent can decide to negate that by given up tempo.
- You could bait an opponent to use his better cards and then lose the round. It's a valid tactic that can be used with certain decks; making the opponent lose card advantage.
- In the same vein, you could counter an opponent tactic by using a removal spell, which can generate tempo. For example if the opponent wanted to buff a card you destroyed, he needs to play another.
- Playing Witcher x3 + Thunderbolt Potion, while being a risky move, can create artificial tempo, because the opponent could need more cards to counter (thus he should pass).
- Ambushes have a rule of their own. You can pre-emptively play them and even after you pass, it can wreck the opponent which also creates card advantage as well as artificial tempo in certain cases.
As mentioned in another thread, card advantage and tempo go hand-in-hand in Gwent. Basically, if you have a card advantage, the opponent can decide to negate that by given up tempo.
Some people using wrong terms. So can we using only Board advantage and Hand advantage. Because all other terms like tempo or card advantage come from other tcg and can't be copied 1:1 to this game. And the most people using wrong words.
Tempo is a term from magic and mean generate high threads with low ressources. Prince Stennis don't bring tempo, he reduce my tempo. I play a ressource (card) get a ressource back and i loose power. So Stennis generate hand advantage and generate board disadvantage. Tempo generate allways board advantage, cards like Witchers, Play 1 card get 3 cards with Power 19, is a good example for a tempo card.
Tempo is a term from magic and mean generate high threads with low ressources. Prince Stennis don't bring tempo, he reduce my tempo. I play a ressource (card) get a ressource back and i loose power. So Stennis generate hand advantage and generate board disadvantage. Tempo generate allways board advantage, cards like Witchers, Play 1 card get 3 cards with Power 19, is a good example for a tempo card.
Should this thread be merged with this one?
Decoy is a Pancake play (read the linked thread). Neither Tempo nor card advantage, unless the card you have decoyed is one or the other. Tempo is not the number of cards in hand, or the number of plays per round (which are similar but not the same) Tempo is the rate of threats on the board. Filtering is another term that should be addressed. Separate from CA and TA, filtering allows the player to find the cards they need, usually with either a tempo (e.g. Stennis) or card disadvantage (e.g. King Bran).
Spies concede tempo for either a filtering or card advantage. Decoy is a way to reuse another advantage card without losing a play for the turn. From the other thread:
While Tempo and Card Advantage are not Gwent unique, they do apply to Gwent. However, both terms really need slightly modified definitions to fit in the round-based, play limited format we have. And there isn't a term that really covers the ratio of "plays per round" between both players (hence the previous threads running Pancake joke).
Decoy is a Pancake play (read the linked thread). Neither Tempo nor card advantage, unless the card you have decoyed is one or the other. Tempo is not the number of cards in hand, or the number of plays per round (which are similar but not the same) Tempo is the rate of threats on the board. Filtering is another term that should be addressed. Separate from CA and TA, filtering allows the player to find the cards they need, usually with either a tempo (e.g. Stennis) or card disadvantage (e.g. King Bran).
Spies concede tempo for either a filtering or card advantage. Decoy is a way to reuse another advantage card without losing a play for the turn. From the other thread:
Treamayne;n7242340 said:
While Tempo and Card Advantage are not Gwent unique, they do apply to Gwent. However, both terms really need slightly modified definitions to fit in the round-based, play limited format we have. And there isn't a term that really covers the ratio of "plays per round" between both players (hence the previous threads running Pancake joke).