Venendal Elite Completely Ruining Ranked Play

[Khreygond]

case in point is the most popular way to use it is with Cantarella.

And if you read the rest of the thread you would know this is a combo which is only good point wise as it severely limits you. First of all, it's not worth it running one venendal only to use it in that way. I've tried. If you try to do that, you have to wait until cantarella is revealed at least, even if you have the VE in hand. That affects the cards you get IMMENSELY. Because you will either reveal Cantarella with Leo or with the leader ability more than usually. With Leo, you need a suitable High Value Target, while the leader is the usual first - second turn play. That leads to you going down on a lot of revelations. Then Cantarella may simply not draw you a good enough card. What if you get a Daerlan while you have no other revealers? The combo you are describing only looks good on paper. Trust me, I've tried it many times. But CA spies have a very important timing they should be played at. The same goes for Cantarella. that combo ruins that. Even if you have revealers to synergize with the card you draw, you might be forced to waste more revelations than you want to, as alchemists, Vattier and the leader all reveal more cards than one.

 

[Klushluck]

NG has all the ways to mess with your opponent but that's what every other class needs. Stop printing straight value and give cards interesting abilities.

 

[Philologus]

And if you read the rest of the thread you would know this is a combo which is only good point wise as it severely limits you. First of all, it's not worth it running one venendal only to use it in that way. I've tried. If you try to do that, you have to wait until cantarella is revealed at least, even if you have the VE in hand. That affects the cards you get IMMENSELY. Because you will either reveal Cantarella with Leo or with the leader ability more than usually. With Leo, you need a suitable High Value Target, while the leader is the usual first - second turn play. That leads to you going down on a lot of revelations. Then Cantarella may simply not draw you a good enough card. What if you get a Daerlan while you have no other revealers? The combo you are describing only looks good on paper. Trust me, I've tried it many times. But CA spies have a very important timing they should be played at. The same goes for Cantarella. that combo ruins that. Even if you have revealers to synergize with the card you draw, you might be forced to waste more revelations than you want to, as alchemists, Vattier and the leader all reveal more cards than one.

Who is running one VE? Again.. with the "tutoring" ability of NG, it's not hard to get that combo. As for a "suitable high value target".. are you really insinuating that's hard to do? What's your cutoff for "high value"? Anything 9+ power is good enough IMO.

Usually, I see Voorhis being played second turn (after a Mangonel is played) for a total of 24 points (including damage), when including Imperial Golems. Then, add +5 or 10 more points of damage if one or two Fire Scorpions are revealed. This first round play is far from uncommon.

Back to the Cantarella combo: Ser.. just in the last three matches I have played against NG, all three pulled off this combo. Voorhis or Leo, or Alchemist or NG Knight.. it doesn't matter. You're getting a 13 pt bronze on the turn VE is played, and THEN card advantage whenever you play a ONE-POINT Cantarella, which is so important in R3. As for protestation concerning the potential quality of the card drawn from Cantarella.. that's not an argument against the combo. This is a card game, and such a vacuous argument could extend all the way to, "my mulligan may not give me good enough cards, so Gwent is unfair". The Darlean scenario you mentioned is variant of this.

As for timing issues, I'll take your word for that since I don't play NG at all. Then again, every single competitor in this game has to deal with timing issues, the least of which is the Dwarves and Axemen, since that's just matter of spamming points mindlessly.

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

its a card that ranges from subpar, to bad, or straighaway useless.

If it's so bad why are people defending it so passionately?

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

You say that because you aren't analysing the card properly.

Literally every argument people have made against the Elite here is 'I don't want to have to play around it'. Well tough. I don't want to have to play around tons of things in the game. Should every card I hate playing against be removed? No. I hate playing around Wrath of God in Magic: The Gathering, but the fact I have to isn't a problem with the game. Having to play around things is the literal skill part of card games. Sticking to Gwent, I hate playing around the following cards: Rag Na Roog, Drought, Ciri: Nova, Schirru, Ithlinne, Scorch (the most play-aroundey-card of all cards to play around), Geralt: Igni, Skellige Storm, Axemen, Henselt (the leader himself, he's a royal pain), Radovid (likewise, engine-locking git that he is), Harald and the list goes on and on.

Should all these cards be removed? Harald gives a simple axeman a 20 pt power swing! Heaven help if there's two!

All these arguments amount to 'I want my game to be easier for me'. Or even worse 'I don't want reveal/insert deck here to be an actual threat'. Not 'this is bad for the game'.

The Venendral Elite puts pressure on you. If a card you would rather was safe gets revealed, you suddenly have to take a risk. Do I play it now and pass on a better moment to do so, or do I take the chance on him having Venendral and this really sucking for me? Practice, learn how to play against reveal. The deck is not that good. It simply isn't. It struggles in all but the first round, and even then, in its strongest round, all you need to do is stop them from sticking a mangonel and suddenly they're fighting to win the one round that they can usually guarantee a win on.

Please, just practice against it. I can honestly say I've been inconvenienced by Venendral Elite maybe twice in the last week. On every other occasion I've simply mulliganed the things I wanted to protect and later mulliganed whatever the Elite hit, if anything. On a few occasions I had a hearty belly laugh as they hit my hand and reduced my Tanhamar from 4 points to 1, or once, a slave driver from 2 to 1.

The idea that this card should be silver is ridiculous. Silver cards are always pretty good, often great, sometimes game-breakingly powerful. The Venendral Elite requires set up to even have a chance to be powerful, and you can play around it and prevent it from doing much. It is perfectly fine as a bronze. I'd go so far as to say it's one of CDPR's better ideas, in fact, because it opens up a new avenue of attack for the reveal deck and makes people think about something else other than points on the board.

Well written and true, for the most part.

All those annoying cards you mentioned except axemen are gold and silver, Venedral is a bronze my friend, you should not have to work around it like the other cards you mentioned.

Plus all those cards you mentioned are fairly straightforward to workaround and don't require you mulliganing valuable game winning cards.

Rag Na Roog = clear skies / Ciri = Igni / Axemen = compression /locking

Venedral elite = Mulligan the most important and high level cards in your hand.



I love all these powerful cards and i'm all for new and interesting abilities, but the Venedral ability is simply too powerful for a bronze.

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

I could get behind that idea.

It's the right thing to do my friend.

:cheers:

 

[Lisandre]

If it's so bad why are people defending it so passionately?

Because people know it's OP, and are afraid CDPR nerfs it and they have to play with a more balanced version.

"Ah, but it requires setup..." Right, a "so difficult" setup, with NG cards revealing 2-3 cards each, and cards like Cynthia revealing automaticly the strongest unity.

Reveal may be not the strongest archetipe right now, but is extremely unfun to play against and it's loades with highly op cards like Venedal and Slave Driver

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

Let me present one last argument on how powerful Venendal Elite is - do you know the card Bekkers Twisted Mirror? It's a Silver Special. When was the last time you saw it played? Exactly.

Its a Silver, and not only is it risky, but it caps the 'switch effect' at 10 points maximum. And Venendal Elite, which is a bronze, and not so risky on a reveal deck, and yet it can be always more effective than Twisted Mirror, as it doesnt have any point cap and can target ALL units!

:what2:

 

[StrykerxS77x]

If it's so bad why are people defending it so passionately?

Because that's their legitimate opinion?

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Because people know it's OP, and are afraid CDPR nerfs it and they have to play with a more balanced version.

"Ah, but it requires setup..." Right, a "so difficult" setup, with NG cards revealing 2-3 cards each, and cards like Cynthia revealing automaticly the strongest unity.

Reveal may be not the strongest archetipe right now, but is extremely unfun to play against and it's loades with highly op cards like Venedal and Slave Driver

It's so OP that I see virtually no one ever using it. If I even attempt to play reveal I either don't use any or throw one in and pray it's able to do something.

Slave driver I agree needs to be changed. No way it should be pulling the SC card which also creates another SC card.

 

[Philologus]

It's so OP that I see virtually no one ever using it. If I even attempt to play reveal I either don't use any or throw one in and pray it's able to do something.

Slave driver I agree needs to be changed. No way it should be pulling the SC card which also creates another SC card.

Wow.. you see "virtually no one" using VE + Cantarella? I see it often when I play against NG.

Strange.

 

[Lisandre]

It's so OP that I see virtually no one ever using it. If I even attempt to play reveal I either don't use any or throw one in and pray it's able to do something.

Slave driver I agree needs to be changed. No way it should be pulling the SC card which also creates another SC card.

SC needs a LOT of changes, that is unquestionable. And well, only because YOU don't see it it means no one is using? Curious...

I never said it un unbeatable or opressive, but that's too strong to it's nature and unfun. And Twisted Mirror was nerfed by the same reasons Venedal is so questionable...

One can compare Reveal decks to the " pre-nerf quest rogues" in Hearthstone (since gwent is taking some steps in heartshtone direction): requires set up, have sub par winrates, have some counters, not extemely hard to beat, but EXTREMELY UNFUN to play against, and with too little conterplay. So, it receive a very minor nerf, and suddenly everyone who defended that "so balanced deck" stopped playing it

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Wow.. you see "virtually no one" using VE + Cantarella? I see it often when I play against NG.

Strange.

My mind was focused on the normal ability of the card which I definitely don't see used very often. Is the Canterella interaction the only reason this thread is up?

 

[4RM3D]

And Twisted Mirror was nerfed by the same reasons Venedal is so questionable...

Because BTM removes points from your opponent's side of the board and adds it to your own side, resulting in a far bigger power-swing than Venendal Elite realistically can pull off. There is a difference with points on the board and points in your hand.

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

My mind was focused on the normal ability of the card which I definitely don't see used very often. Is the Canterella interaction the only reason this thread is up?

No it's because it can target golds.

 

[Khreygond]

This is a card game, and such a vacuous argument could extend all the way to, "my mulligan may not give me good enough cards, so Gwent is unfair". The Darlean scenario you mentioned is variant of this.

I knew it could be interpreted this way but that's not where I want to extend it. CA spies are so good not because of what they offer but because if the timing is right, they basically offer it for free or for very little drawbacks. The Venendal Elite ruins that timing, basically hurting the CA spies, my argument was just a way to show how they can do so. Sure it offers a lot of points. But really, the CA spies don't matter when played right because either the opponent will be too far ahead in terms of points or somewhat behind, enough for you to still be in the fight. In both of those occasions the CA spy doesn't change much. With the VE you have to wait to activate the combo, potentially ruining your draw because reveal has no powerful bronzes, only bronzes that combine well (daerlans and scorpions are nigh useless without a revealer).

In all fairness I've tried the VE, I once went with a Reveal deck that had 3 of those at the core because I figured that the power swings would be great. It still failed horribly.

Twisted Mirror

No. Venendal is not the same as former Twisted Mirror. Twisted Mirror swapped the power of the Highest and Lowest unit on the battlefield. So if you had a vicovaro medic and the opponent a Tibor Eggebracht, boom, now it's the opposite. That's nowhere near what the Venendal does. The comparison with the old Twisted Mirror is inaccurate to say the least. Not to mention that you can easily get around 50% of the Venendal's power by swapping the card they sapped the next round

Because people know it's OP, and are afraid CDPR nerfs it and they have to play with a more balanced version.

Right. I've got 4 Voorhis decks, a spotter deck, a mangonel deck, a reveal-spy deck and a soldier deck. Wanna know how many venendals are, in total, in all of those decks? None. It's nowhere near as good as it sounds. I am defending it because I've played it, I've tried it out, a lot, and it simply isn't as good as it seems. Sure, it's a good card. I am not denying that it's pretty good. But it just never did it for me.

If it's so powerful explain to me how it ruins ranked play. Reveal is barely a Tier 2 deck. Before Midwinter it was Tier 3 and it still had the VE.

 

[Philologus]

Because BTM removes points from your opponent's side of the board and adds it to your own side, resulting in a far bigger power-swing than Venendal Elite realistically can pull off. There is a difference with points on the board and points in your hand.

Yes, there is a difference, but it's not a significant as you keep insinuating. The Cantarella combo aside, the fact is that VE usually targets a high-value card in your hand, regardless of its point value. So yeah.. you can go ahead and mulligan it next round, but if you don't get it back in R3, then VE has indeed performed a power-swing equivalent to double the value of the card drained. And the probability of re-drawing a card in R2 and R3 is much lower than for R1, even with multiple copies of said card.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

No it's because it can target golds.

What's the problem with that? The card doesn't work very well against bronzes so why are golds a problem? A lot of golds have a low value so the elite wouldn't do much to them even if it had the opportunity.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

If it's so powerful explain to me how it ruins ranked play. Reveal is barely a Tier 2 deck. Before Midwinter it was Tier 3 and it still had the VE.

I have to guess that whoever is complaining about this card lost to reveal playing casual or something and decided to make a thread. Reveal isn't that prevalent in ranked and from what I have seen it's only good in ranked utilizing Scorch, Yennifer, and Villi. The Venendal elites have basically nothing to do with what success reveal has.

 

[iamthedave]

Well written and true, for the most part.

All those annoying cards you mentioned except axemen are gold and silver, Venedral is a bronze my friend, you should not have to work around it like the other cards you mentioned.

Plus all those cards you mentioned are fairly straightforward to workaround and don't require you mulliganing valuable game winning cards.

Rag Na Roog = clear skies / Ciri = Igni / Axemen = compression /locking

Venedral elite = Mulligan the most important and high level cards in your hand.



I love all these powerful cards and i'm all for new and interesting abilities, but the Venedral ability is simply too powerful for a bronze.

Alright, let's stick to bronzes I don't like playing around.

Wild Hunt rider, Wild Hunt hound (if you don't draw weather clear these two cards suuuuuuuck to be up against), nekkers, siege support, the other siege guy, that NR knight who gets a massive boost if he's played from the deck, the regular knight who gets a massive boost if he loses his armour, the knight who buffs his pals if he has armour, Anything with the word 'Impera' in the title, vrihedd dragoons, that dwarf who buffs if he gets hurt or boosted (not a regular play but a pain in decks designed to exploit him), and others.

And your argument is a terrible one.

If you mulligan those game winning cards, it's so you can draw them again later, and if your deck is well constructed you probably will, since you'll be drawing tons of cards out of your library during the first round (most decks do a fair bit of this for greater reliability in future rounds).

But here's the thing, unless your hand is STUFF with 15+ point gold cards, you need to mulligan maybe one card. Almost every other card, if it gets revealed, you can just play it. If it's a tech gold, so what if it gets venendralled? The tech is the real power of the card anyway. So they reveal Villen. Fine. Play him. What's the elite supposed to do now? Every time you do this, the elite becomes a weaker and weaker play. And this assumes they even manage to reveal your power cards, which isn't a guarantee.

You talk about 'revealing your entire hand'. How exactly? A reveal deck's power play involves the following: Revealing a minimum of 2 Daerlan Foot Soldiers and maybe 2 cards from your hand for golems. The next play is usually revealing fire scorpions or one scorp and a card from your hand for the third golem. At this point they've played three cards - mangonel, Moovran and probably an alchemist or maybe vattier - and revealed a maximum of 3 cards from your hand, unless they're deliberately nerfing themselves and not revealing their own cards. Vattier gives a little more leeway, they might have a look at 4 cards from your hand. 5 at a big stretch.

How likely is it that you've a) played no cards they revealed at this time and b) that they have revealed every single power card in your hand and c) you are completely unable to play any of these cards to make them immune to Venendral?

Please, explain to me the hand of cards that would demand you mulligan every single power card in your hand instead of simply playing them if they got revealed. We'll exclude Olaf, because he's an auto-mulligan against reveal as he's hard to set up on the first round.

Yes, there is a difference, but it's not a significant as you keep insinuating. The Cantarella combo aside, the fact is that VE usually targets a high-value card in your hand, regardless of its point value. So yeah.. you can go ahead and mulligan it next round, but if you don't get it back in R3, then VE has indeed performed a power-swing equivalent to double the value of the card drained. And the probability of re-drawing a card in R2 and R3 is much lower than for R1, even with multiple copies of said card.

So in other words, if you mulligan the VEd card the chances of redrawing it are quite low?

Your argument is still based on a fair bit of ifs and buts. The circumstances have to be right for VE to have any effect on the board whatsoever, and let's remember that unless VE hit an 11+ target it's a net tempo loss, as far as bronzes go these days.

So the core argument remains: a situational bronze card that is good sometimes after being set up with multiple other plays is sometimes equal to average bronze plays in the game and is occasionally really really good when the stars align.

Broken, indeed.