Venendal Elite Completely Ruining Ranked Play

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

Again all those cards you mentioned are simple units and fairly easy to counter and none of them ruin the golds in your hand.

Vendrenel is in a league of it's own my friend, hence the thread and the majority of people asking for it not to be able to target golds.

No matter how well constructed your deck is their is still a chance you will not get back golds you mulliganed and why?

because you were scared of a pesky bronze.

No bronze should have that level of power over your hand.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Again all those cards you mentioned are simple units and fairly easy to counter and none of them ruin the golds in your hand.

Vendrenel is in a league of it's own my friend, hence the thread and the majority of people asking for it not to be able to target golds.

No matter how well constructed your deck is their is still a chance you will not get back golds you mulliganed and why?

because you were scared of a pesky bronze.

No bronze should have that level of power over your hand.

The golds in the deck that I am currently using are the following strength 2, 2, 2, and 9. Why should I be afraid of elites again?

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

The golds in the deck that I am currently using are the following strength 2, 2, 2, and 9. Why should I be afraid of elites again?

That's what your running, great. Most casual players have a few high level golds in there like geralt, olaf, hjallmar, ciri:dash.

I mean what if you have been buffing ciri:dash for round 3 only for a bronze to completely destroy it?

Dosen't sound right to me

 

[4RM3D]

So yeah.. you can go ahead and mulligan it next round, but if you don't get it back in R3, then VE has indeed performed a power-swing equivalent to double the value of the card drained.

That is not necessarily true because:

1. If you've won the round, you can just bleed the opponent with it.
2. If it's a tech card, you can still use it.
3. If you mulligan it away, you might get something similar or even better.

BTM is a guaranteed power-swing on the turn you play it. VE could be a delayed power-swing later on, but no guarantees, and even it's average value is lower than BTM (which is normal because BTM is a silver card).

 

[StrykerxS77x]

That's what your running, great. Most casual players have a few high level golds in there like geralt, olaf, hjallmar, ciri:dash.

I mean what if you have been buffing ciri:dash for round 3 only for a bronze to completely destroy it?

Dosen't sound right to me

It's a low chance that they will have the elite in hand and reveal that card as well. As the other guy said if that happens you can still just play the card. If the elite doesn't have a good target that is actually a bigger problem for them than it is for you to simply play the card. Olaf and the others will still bring decent value if played early.

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

Well it's happened to me on a number of occasions hence the reason i made this stupid thread.

 

[Philologus]

That is not necessarily true because:

1. If you've won the round, you can just bleed the opponent with it.
2. If it's a tech card, you can still use it.
3. If you mulligan it away, you might get something similar or even better.

BTM is a guaranteed power-swing on the turn you play it. VE could be a delayed power-swing later on, but no guarantees, and even it's average value is lower than BTM (which is normal because BTM is a silver card).

1) I'm not going to "bleed" the opponent with a one-power card, usually. I'm going to mulligan it. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but if it's an important card, I'll take the lower odds of reacquiring in subsequent rounds.
2) Can one use VE on a tech card? I didn't know that. The wording doesn't indicate as such.
3) Yeah.. or not. You're dealing in suppositions. The fact at that moment is that there is a power swing equal to the power of the drained card. If it's a high power card (as it usually is), then VE has performed more admirably than BTM. Furthermore, i doubt anyone packs "unimportant" cards in their respective decks. If it happens to any of my cards in-hand, I'm not going to giggle with glee and think: "OH JOY! I can mulligan it and maybe get a better card!" (As if that doesn't happen at the beginning of a given round, anyway)

 

[4RM3D]

Philologus

1. You could keep the 1 strength card to prevent bricking your hand in the final round. It's an okay tactic, if you've won the round.
2. Tech cards or any card where its ability is more important than its strength. Not to mention, the lower VE hits, the more likely you are to keep the card in hand.
3. If you can trigger BTM, it's always better than VE, unless you're specifically going for the delayed power-swing (aka a reduced carry-over), usually only when the round is lost anyway.

(Of all the problematic cards out there, VE doesn't even reach the top 10. Not saying anyone claimed otherwise, even though this thread does make it appear so.)

 

[Cardzilla]

if i play against anyone using this card, it's auto no-GG, as this card is broken and basically tells me the person using it is trying to take advantage of that fact.

i've seen it too many times get a 40+ swing or enable a 1 pt CA.

and don't give me that, "risk/reward, sometimes it doesn't work" crap. the fact it can create 40 pt swings or enable 1 pt card advantage plays is ridiculous.

 

[ZenaRose]

VE should be netfed from 1 to 5 str at least

 

[Sheva007]

Many times A 40+ swing? :hmm:

this community is hilarious xD

 

[ZenaRose]

Many times A 40+ swing? :hmm:

this community is hilarious xD

No, 40+ is ofc rare, but 25 point swing with own Cantarella is more often than not. 25 for bronze LUL, Ciri Nova is smokes nervously aside

 

[Cardzilla]

Many times A 40+ swing? :hmm:

this community is hilarious xD

yes, many times. olaf 3 times since midwinter, and prior to midwinter, i used a vet buff pirate captain deck (pirate captains could be built past 20) where i got hit at least half a dozen times.

you attacking first just because of your own personal experience not taking into the account of others proves the point, that yes, the community (to use your own words) is hilarious (not in a good way)

 

[Sheva007]

yes, many times. olaf 3 times since midwinter, and prior to midwinter, i used a vet buff pirate captain deck (pirate captains could be built past 20) where i got hit at least half a dozen times.

you attacking first just because of your own personal experience not taking into the account of others proves the point, that yes, the community (to use your own words) is hilarious (not in a good way)

Olaf being hit by a VE is not a 40+ swing, is 38. So you got once a 40+ swing hit.

what worries me, is that when you got your olaf revealed, instead of inmediatly playing it, you chose to keep it in your hand as a sitting duck for VE, that can happen once, no more.

 

[Draconifors]

One post deleted and another one edited. Keep personal disputes away from public threads and your posts civilized.

Also, ridiculing others is not allowed. Another post deleted.

 

[Cardzilla]

Olaf being hit by a VE is not a 40+ swing, is 38. So you got once a 40+ swing hit.

what worries me, is that when you got your olaf revealed, instead of inmediatly playing it, you chose to keep it in your hand as a sitting duck for VE, that can happen once, no more.

why are you ignoring this part of my statement, "prior to midwinter, i used a vet buff pirate captain deck (pirate captains could be built past 20) where i got hit at least half a dozen times." ?

also you are justifying 2 pts off of an olaf hit by a bronze card?

and i'm not saying those things to get more BS from you (where you started things above by trying to use me as an example above in a disparaging way to attack the community), i'm saying them because my statements were misrepresented earlier and i'm stating things in the question format to rectify the situation.

 

[Philologus]

I knew it could be interpreted this way but that's not where I want to extend it. CA spies are so good not because of what they offer but because if the timing is right, they basically offer it for free or for very little drawbacks. The Venendal Elite ruins that timing, basically hurting the CA spies, my argument was just a way to show how they can do so. Sure it offers a lot of points. But really, the CA spies don't matter when played right because either the opponent will be too far ahead in terms of points or somewhat behind, enough for you to still be in the fight. In both of those occasions the CA spy doesn't change much. With the VE you have to wait to activate the combo, potentially ruining your draw because reveal has no powerful bronzes, only bronzes that combine well (daerlans and scorpions are nigh useless without a revealer).

In all fairness I've tried the VE, I once went with a Reveal deck that had 3 of those at the core because I figured that the power swings would be great. It still failed horribly.



No. Venendal is not the same as former Twisted Mirror. Twisted Mirror swapped the power of the Highest and Lowest unit on the battlefield. So if you had a vicovaro medic and the opponent a Tibor Eggebracht, boom, now it's the opposite. That's nowhere near what the Venendal does. The comparison with the old Twisted Mirror is inaccurate to say the least. Not to mention that you can easily get around 50% of the Venendal's power by swapping the card they sapped the next round



Right. I've got 4 Voorhis decks, a spotter deck, a mangonel deck, a reveal-spy deck and a soldier deck. Wanna know how many venendals are, in total, in all of those decks? None. It's nowhere near as good as it sounds. I am defending it because I've played it, I've tried it out, a lot, and it simply isn't as good as it seems. Sure, it's a good card. I am not denying that it's pretty good. But it just never did it for me.

If it's so powerful explain to me how it ruins ranked play. Reveal is barely a Tier 2 deck. Before Midwinter it was Tier 3 and it still had the VE.

Goodness, you have a way of ignoring pertinent things I have mentioned.
1) The chance of one redrawing a card affected by VE is low. This should be obvious.
2) VE makes Cantarella better. You get a 13 pt bronze and CA while only giving your opponent 1 pt! How can you possibly downplay that? If you can VE her, great. If not, Cantarella is still good value.
3) Your lack of VEs in your respective NG decks proves nothing. I have been hit by the VE/Cantarella combo so many times, I've lost count. And I have had VE hit high target cards in my hand enough times to know what a pain it is, and the low chances of redrawing the card. (Do you want me to run the statistics for you?)

I have no idea if it's Tier 1 or 2, and I don't know what that means with regards to your subjective view. Please cite evidence, or I'll happily discard your statement as "factual opinion".

 

[Philologus]

So in other words, if you mulligan the VEd card the chances of redrawing it are quite low?

Your argument is still based on a fair bit of ifs and buts. The circumstances have to be right for VE to have any effect on the board whatsoever, and let's remember that unless VE hit an 11+ target it's a net tempo loss, as far as bronzes go these days.

So the core argument remains: a situational bronze card that is good sometimes after being set up with multiple other plays is sometimes equal to average bronze plays in the game and is occasionally really really good when the stars align.

Broken, indeed.

You're obfuscating. If VE hits an 11 pt bronze, it's more than just 11 pts, since that bronze is most likely useless for that round. And again, YES, the chances of redrawing are low for R2 and R3. (Seriously man.. c'mon.. even if you run the numbers in your head, you should realize this!)

Your second to last statement is just absurd and borderline dishonest.

 

[iamthedave]

You're obfuscating. If VE hits an 11 pt bronze, it's more than just 11 pts, since that bronze is most likely useless for that round. And again, YES, the chances of redrawing are low for R2 and R3. (Seriously man.. c'mon.. even if you run the numbers in your head, you should realize this!)

Your second to last statement is just absurd and borderline dishonest.

At this point I have to ask. Have you actually played with VE and seen how rarely the stars align for it? Sure, Cantarella combo is a thing. It's good, no question. But that's not what all this whining is about, it's about VE attacking cards in your deck.

Have you ever played with VE?

 

[Khreygond]

1) The chance of one redrawing a card affected by VE is low. This should be obvious.

No one is saying it isn't. But as the rounds progress and deck thinning takes place it unavoidably becomes higher.

2) VE makes Cantarella better. You get a 13 pt bronze and CA while only giving your opponent 1 pt! How can you possibly downplay that? If you can VE her, great. If not, Cantarella is still good value.

Not really. I can downplay it because I've tried this combo myself a gazillion times. I know it's not as good as it sounds. If you don't VE her you are getting screwed because very rarely will the stars align for other VEs in your deck to find good enough value with enemy cards. Not to mention you don't even know when you'll draw them. And running only one to use Cantarella with isn't worth it. It's really as simple as that.

3) Your lack of VEs in your respective NG decks proves nothing. I have been hit by the VE/Cantarella combo so many times, I've lost count. And I have had VE hit high target cards in my hand enough times to know what a pain it is, and the low chances of redrawing the card. (Do you want me to run the statistics for you?)

As have I in probably as many matches as you have or more. If you read the last part of my previous post (maybe it just doesn't work for me) you'd know that I was just stating my opinion with this particular part and in no way did I suggest it proves anything. It's not a bad card. I never even said that. Quite the contrary it is quite good. But not even the menace everyone seems to be describing it. And you are free to try it yourself and see how well that works for you. Because Reveal is one of my oldest decks and I've been fine tuning it for a long time. (just in case it isn't clear again, this is my opinion. For facts, please respond to the last part of my post, see below)

I have no idea if it's Tier 1 or 2, and I don't know what that means with regards to your subjective view. Please cite evidence, or I'll happily discard your statement as "factual opinion".

Gladly. But first I have to ask what counts as evidence for you. Is it the GwentUp report? Is it Swim's analysis? Or you can just sit and think how many times you've lost to Reveal in total on your own too, that would work. But sure. I'll let you know what I came up with after you let me know