Venendal Elite Completely Ruining Ranked Play

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In my opinion (response to the original post) Venendal elite is an extremely powerful card for a bronze. It can be played up to 4 times (even though using a decoy on an already boosted card is not the best idea), and in my experience NG can reveal cca 8 cards without problem. It can also switch its power with the boosted power of any revealed unit, not the base. At least some aspects of VE should be changed:
a) it becomes a silver
b) it switches the base power (scoia'tael can boost many cards in hand)
c) it can't affect golds

I am not suggesting all of these should be changed, I think that would weaken the card too much. I also like to play the Venendal elite card myself, but I still feel it is to powerful, especially for a bronze. I mean if Cynthia is silver, why isn't the Venendal elite? I think that would be the best solution. If you'd want to play with it, you'd have to give up another silver.

The other main con of the VE (and the whole NG reveal tactic) is the lack of counter powers. Mangonel you can lock, but against use and re-use of Fire scorpions there is nothing I can think of. But this is one of the main points of NG and not the point of this post. My problem is that the only things to do against VE is to swap the revealed cards (which not many decks can do) or to play them (but I think this is still in part a success for the VE owner, for only the threat of it forced the play of revealed card). Proving how powerful this bronze card is.
- A suggestion for a possible counter card could be a neutral special (or a unit for every faction) that conceals cards.

Another point I wanted to make was already well written:
DRK3;n10247122 said:
For people complaining that Venendal can be a dead card if obtained on R3 or when you dont have valuable revealed targets - so what? there are many other bronzes who work like that, its called 'risk and reward' ex. reaver scouts, they easily bring another one of your units, but if those units were killed, he's a dead card, you have to consider that risk.
And maybe you havent noticed, but revealing your opponent's entire hand had become really easy, to the point sometimes you had more reveal options but only your own hand as target - so what did CDPR did? Created this new 'conceal' mechanic so you can never 'reveal too much' as you can keep revealing those fire scorpions to hit again, etc.
Sure, there are decks that are pretty resistant to Venendal, and one of those decks might be the most popular atm, but does that make the card "balanced" when its still OP against most other decks?
 
mpk_394;n10264572 said:
[SNIP] re: Cynthia [/SNIP]

And Cynthia, along with being a silver, only reveals and copies the revealed cards power as a boost rather than drains it; so at least with Cynthia you may have a revealed 10pt card, but it's still a 10pt card - with VE being able to drain the power for a bronze and you have very little to counter this seems backasswards to me - VE should be at least a Silver card imho.

 
My only gripe with NG is its current design. The Midwinter patch GAVE them the power to both have a finisher, alongside their tempo, all while bleeding the board and draining your opponents ability to fight back.

Their tempo will carry them through Round 1, then cards like VE with Canderella (at the worst) and draining revealed opponent cards allow them a mid round card advantage WITH a finish. On top of the advantage of knowing their opponents hand.

The entire concept and identity of NG was killed. They had a peek at their opponents hands and adapted their play around it. Where'd that go? You're just killing their hand entirely.
 
ser2440;n10264132 said:
No one is saying it isn't. But as the rounds progress and deck thinning takes place it unavoidably becomes higher.



Not really. I can downplay it because I've tried this combo myself a gazillion times. I know it's not as good as it sounds. If you don't VE her you are getting screwed because very rarely will the stars align for other VEs in your deck to find good enough value with enemy cards. Not to mention you don't even know when you'll draw them. And running only one to use Cantarella with isn't worth it. It's really as simple as that.



As have I in probably as many matches as you have or more. If you read the last part of my previous post (maybe it just doesn't work for me) you'd know that I was just stating my opinion with this particular part and in no way did I suggest it proves anything. It's not a bad card. I never even said that. Quite the contrary it is quite good. But not even the menace everyone seems to be describing it. And you are free to try it yourself and see how well that works for you. Because Reveal is one of my oldest decks and I've been fine tuning it for a long time. (just in case it isn't clear again, this is my opinion. For facts, please respond to the last part of my post, see below)



Gladly. But first I have to ask what counts as evidence for you. Is it the GwentUp report? Is it Swim's analysis? Or you can just sit and think how many times you've lost to Reveal in total on your own too, that would work. But sure. I'll let you know what I came up with after you let me know

Ser.. you made the statement, so you back it up! Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to make a claim and then ask someone else to prove it? What kind of tactic is that?
 
Ser.. you made the statement, so you back it up! Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to make a claim and then ask someone else to prove it? What kind of tactic is that?

I asked what you count as proof so that I may provide it. That's all. I don't see where you think I am asking you to prove it, aside from my third-to-last sentence which came right before and after 4 others telling you that I will provide the proof you seek as soon as you tell me what counts as proof for you.
 
I got done over good by a VE (this was before I realised what could happen). Cynthia reveals my Geralt (yes, it's not a great card, but I hardly had any Gold's to choose from for that deck). Next turn, VE takes Geralt's power. So I mulligan Geralt away in round 2. Then round 3 I get my 1 point Geralt back again after my only mulligan - argh!
So my point is that mulliganing the card away doesn't reset it's power back to base strength. Which mean's you don't want to draw it again, but sometimes you do!
 
After skimming through this thread i would say it's the general consensus that VE is a broken card that needs fixing as soon as possible.

:cheers:

CDPR really are great developers listening to the feedback of the community.

:wisegirl:

 
ser2440;n10266282 said:
I asked what you count as proof so that I may provide it. That's all. I don't see where you think I am asking you to prove it, aside from my third-to-last sentence which came right before and after 4 others telling you that I will provide the proof you seek as soon as you tell me what counts as proof for you.

You choose. I'll take whatever data analysis you present.
 
MU24bmw;n10267432 said:
I got done over good by a VE (this was before I realised what could happen). Cynthia reveals my Geralt (yes, it's not a great card, but I hardly had any Gold's to choose from for that deck). Next turn, VE takes Geralt's power. So I mulligan Geralt away in round 2. Then round 3 I get my 1 point Geralt back again after my only mulligan - argh!
So my point is that mulliganing the card away doesn't reset it's power back to base strength. Which mean's you don't want to draw it again, but sometimes you do!

Wait a minute.. mulliganing the card doesn't reset it?? That's even worse.. I though it did.
 
SHALLAHJUSTICE;n10269792 said:
After skimming through this thread i would say it's the general consensus that VE is a broken card that needs fixing as soon as possible.

If most people say the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so. Nevertheless, the perception of players is still important, regardless of whether it's correct. If CDPR wants to fix VE, it should be because players dislike it, rather than it being broken. A subtle, but important, distinction.
 
You choose. I'll take whatever data analysis you present.

Fair enough :) for starters, that's the latest GwentUP meta report. Voorhis has a 5.2% popularity but only a 45% winrate. Sure it's more popular than, say Eredin or even Henselt. Does it make the cut? Not really. And that's not even decks using Venendals, all of them.

In the Meta Snapshot by Gwentlemen, Reveal or any deck using Venendals, is not even there (to clarify, as the meta snapshot says, these are the 3 strongest archetypes of each faction. Reveal rates lower than swarm as such). Granted, the snapshot is a bit old, but it definitely was created after the Midwinter Patch, and at least a whole season for which we had Venendals.

All in all, when Reveal rates that low, I fail to see how this card is "ruining ranked play"

And finally, perhaps this discussion will do it for you, where every commentator agrees that not only it's inconsistent and polarized, but also that there are ways to work around it like armorsmiths or D-Bomb or mushrooms or Peter Saar or (formerly) Quen
 
ser2440;n10270952 said:
Fair enough :) for starters, that's the latest GwentUP meta report. Voorhis has a 5.2% popularity but only a 45% winrate. Sure it's more popular than, say Eredin or even Henselt. Does it make the cut? Not really. And that's not even decks using Venendals, all of them.

In the Meta Snapshot by Gwentlemen, Reveal or any deck using Venendals, is not even there (to clarify, as the meta snapshot says, these are the 3 strongest archetypes of each faction. Reveal rates lower than swarm as such). Granted, the snapshot is a bit old, but it definitely was created after the Midwinter Patch, and at least a whole season for which we had Venendals.

All in all, when Reveal rates that low, I fail to see how this card is "ruining ranked play"

And finally, perhaps this discussion will do it for you, where every commentator agrees that not only it's inconsistent and polarized, but also that there are ways to work around it like armorsmiths or D-Bomb or mushrooms or Peter Saar or (formerly) Quen

Lol.. you should actually read the thread to which you sent me! All of them seem to agree VE + Cantarella is OP! From there, some say it's mediocre.

I don't know about the GwentUp report; does it pertain only to the highest ranks? Because I run into reveal about 1/4 of the matches. (Yes, I have been counting)

I never said it's "ruining ranked play". Someone else may have. Please attribute quotes to the correct person. I said it's OP, especially as concerns the Cantarella combo.

A
nd that snapshot is almost one month old!!! It was taken ONE DAY AFTER THE PATCH? C'mon man! Don't be that way!

edited to add: You know what else?!? I noticed that thread you sent me to is over two months old! It's pre-patch.
 
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Lol.. you should actually read the thread to which you sent me! All of them seem to agree VE + Cantarella is OP! From there, some say it's mediocre.

VE + Cantarella, most say it is a great combo true. But everyone, EVERYONE, says they are not worth anything else. And everyone's opinion, is that the overall value of the card is mediocre to say the least even with that one good combo. Seeing as my original statement was:

Not really. I can downplay it because I've tried this combo myself a gazillion times. I know it's not as good as it sounds. If you don't VE her you are getting screwed because very rarely will the stars align for other VEs in your deck to find good enough value with enemy cards. Not to mention you don't even know when you'll draw them. And running only one to use Cantarella with isn't worth it. It's really as simple as that.

The one you asked proof for, this is exactly what this proves. That even the so called "OP" combo with cantarella can be countered by armorsmiths (has happened to me too), resetters/d-bombs and NG has a lot of ways of reducing Cantarella's swing anyway (like other users point out, in a spy deck she often even makes positive value for example). So once again, no. The combo, while good on its own, even if it's broken, does not warrant the card needing a rework/nerf. The card itself is completely inconsistent and on that, everyone from this thread agrees on.

I don't know about the GwentUp report; does it pertain only to the highest ranks? Because I run into reveal about 1/4 of the matches. (Yes, I have been counting)

I am no expert but it's been far less for me. I think the GwentUP report is about all the matches of the period stated, though I am not sure.

I never said it's "ruining ranked play". Someone else may have. Please attribute quotes to the correct person. I said it's OP, especially as concerns the Cantarella combo.

Please read the thread more carefully, as even those who say that the combo is OP/broken, all agree that the card itself is mediocre to say the least. Some of them even agree that the combo can easily be countered. And in the end, I am not disproving you. You asked for proof as to what I say, I am not shooting down your belief, I am trying to prove mine. So whether or not you said it is "ruining ranked play" is irrelevant. I am proving that it isn't seeing as you asked for proof.

And that snapshot is almost one month old!!! It was taken ONE DAY AFTER THE PATCH? C'mon man! Don't be that way!

Did you miss the part in the first paragraph where it says they will be updating the lists as much as possible? I know for a fact they've updated the dwarves list, at first it was just the second list there. Not to mention that whether or not it's 1 day after the patch is completely irrelevant, seeing as the Venendal Elite existed for a whole month before the patch and its ability has always been what it is now.
 
4RM3D;n10270202 said:
If most people say the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so. Nevertheless, the perception of players is still important, regardless of whether it's correct. If CDPR wants to fix VE, it should be because players dislike it, rather than it being broken. A subtle, but important, distinction.

Insightful comparison....

:wisegirl:

Whatever term you use, disliked or broken, it's a controversial card to say the least and deserves some attention by the developers.

No bronze should be able to wreck a gold card like that. It's very simple.

:yawn:
 
I think it is relevant in that the game changed a lot post-patch. But fair enough ser2440.. this card isn't worth so much argument. Furthermore, FINALLY someone used a VE against me and actually hit a target that wasn't worth much (Dijkstra). I about jumped for joy! Then in R2, my opponent hit one of my higher bronzes, but it was all good. I won.

On a different note: I'm gonna take a break from this game. The lack of (competitive) deck diversity due to bad balance, along with the shortened season and a few other problems with this game is frustrating, for me. I'll peak-in after the next patch and hope for the best.

 
Philologus;n10243032 said:
THAT is absurd too, especially given that NG runs the Ointment card.

NG just ****** me off right now - most of their archetypes have some kind of BS/cheapshot cards that ought to be looked at from a foundation gameplay perspective.
 

Guest_4248742

Guest
This post i can only say :GIT GUD .

Reveal is one of the coolest mechanics i have seen in a card game i like the concept and in fact recently i am on a huge losing streak with my reveal deck i find it way too weak compared to other type of decks so atm reveal is not as strong as it was before the last patch
 
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