Video games are highest form of art! Why are they ONLY judged by gameplay?

[KeldornOfLatria]

Art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. If it's art in your mind, it's art. Trying to convince others something is 'art' is missing the point completely. For me, Silent Hill 2 is high art that works on multitudinous levels, creating the pre-eminent gaming-art masterpiece, singe-handedly proving beyond doubt that games can work on the same level as books films music. To the next guy it's a janky piece of *&@£. The world seems to have forgotten that personal opinion is ALL that matters in entertainment / leisure pursuits.

I think what you say is true for people in their adulthood who have already experienced much of life and much of art (in the broadest sense). But you can't deny that something being considered art is (or should be) only subjective. Art is supposed to provoke, too, and therefore it sometimes also provokes discussion whether it even is or should be considered art.
Is Lady Gaga's music art or just pop music, is the persona "Lady Gaga" art reflecting on pop music? To even be able to start such a discussion makes it an art form – even if I don't necessarily "like" the concept of Lady Gaga etc.

 

[Terricola69]

Because they are just games. Don't get me wrong, SOME games are art. And I suppose it is legal to include videogames in art.

But I find it difficult to see the art of a tetris or a mario bross

 

[Andes_Attack_Mk2]

I think what you say is true for people in their adulthood who have already experienced much of life and much of art (in the broadest sense). But you can't deny that something being considered art is (or should be) only subjective. Art is supposed to provoke, too, and therefore it sometimes also provokes discussion whether it even is or should be considered art.
Is Lady Gaga's music art or just pop music, is the persona "Lady Gaga" art reflecting on pop music? To even be able to start such a discussion makes it an art form – even if I don't necessarily "like" the concept of Lady Gaga etc.

I completely get your point, and it is undoubtedly so, but my own world view has always pre-inclined me to suppose how lucky we all are to be sat having those discussions in the first place, as opposed to being I dunno, born in a warzone or whatever / wherever. Such discussions are a privilege not enjoyed by a surprisingly large percentage of the global population, and to my own fault I always hold that whole picture in my head, which layers a brutal sense of perspective upon the 'escapist folly' of such discussion. Honestly though, I'm fun in the pub

BTW I always thought / presumed Lady Gaga was an excellent exercise in marketing, but having recently watched her Moth Into Flame rehearsal with Metallica on YT I thought she could sing a bit too. Fair play to her for that

 

[Restlessdingo32]

If we take Minecraft. It's cubes, no story, with fairly basic gameplay (As they say in France, it doesn't break a duck's three legs). But what some players does with it is works of art.

It may be cubes but it's a creative work designed to be pleasing and capture the attention of the intended audience. The end goal is to draw attention to whatever the creative "thing" happens to be. To me using creativity to draw attention to that thing is sufficient. It could be to invoke thought, emotional responses, provide an alluring visual, sound, whatever. It could also be manipulating 1's and 0's so others can create whatever they desire for themselves. It's all arguably "art" to some degree.

The point was the thread title suggests games are only judged on their interactive qualities, or gameplay. It's a false premise.

Now is this art or entertainment? Or both?

Honestly, what's the difference? Ignoring the words as they're defined since, well, definitions are imperfect and are sometimes even changed. What would be the purpose of creating a painting? To invoke some response in the intended audience so they want to look at it. What's the point of a movie or book? To invoke some response in the intended audience so they want to watch or read it. What's the point of a game? I'll leave that one blank .

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

Honestly, what's the difference? Ignoring the words as they're defined since, well, definitions are imperfect and are sometimes even changed. What would be the purpose of creating a painting? To invoke some response in the intended audience so they want to look at it. What's the point of a movie or book? To invoke some response in the intended audience so they want to watch or read it. What's the point of a game? I'll leave that one blank .

That's exactly why I think there whole art vs entertainment discussion has no merit. You can't separate one from the other, so why bother trying to shoehorn some products in one category and one in the other? I think you can ask what a book/movie/game wants to achieve and then ask if it works and that is a way to tell if the product is any good (personal opinion might vary, though). The question should not be if in 200 years someone will think of Cyberpunk 2077 as art, the question is what does Cyberpunk want to convey (deep story with questions about the meaning of life and technology, entertaining gameplay, interesting characters, beautiful art design, a message about consumerism, maybe?) and to what degree does it achieve these goals...

 

[Delilah_]

i don't think going the "game is art" route is the right way to convince people but i like the intent behind this post, CP77 is clearly a piece of art, imo, but the issue at hand is not whether people consider it a piece of art or not, that was never the issue. In fact, it's the culture of clickbait reviewers and the state of gamers of this decade.

Humans love to complain about what could've been, should've been and would've been, it's in our nature. the same way you think about an exam and how you could've improved your mark, same way they complain about the "wasted" potential of Cyberpunk 2077, it's both useless, nothing will change, it is what it is. Instead of talking about the game, what's good. It's just infinite rage videos about bugs, bugs ,bugs ,bugs. As if bugs were never a part of video games. Truth is, they shot themselves to the foot when they set their expectations as high as people waiting for the second coming of Christ.

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

Humans love to complain about what could've been, should've been and would've been, it's in our nature. the same way you think about an exam and how you could've improved your mark, same way they complain about the "wasted" potential of Cyberpunk 2077, it's both useless, nothing will change, it is what it is. Instead of talking about the game, what's good. It's just infinite rage videos about bugs, bugs ,bugs ,bugs. As if bugs were never a part of video games. Truth is, they shot themselves to the foot when they set their expectations as high as people waiting for the second coming of Christ.

Well, CDPR promoted the game as being the best thing since sliced bread, so what do you expect? For players to shut up and only praise the "art", but ignore the rest? I think the problem with this game for many players (those that were lucky enough to actually finish the game due to crashed and gamebreaking bugs) is that the game contains a lot of stuff that is definitely praiseworthy and what you might call art (I don't, for reasons stated above). But all this "art" gets buried under bullshit and that's just not something you can ignore. Gameplay, performance, graphics, working mechanics, quest design - these are all vital parts of what makes video games video games, so you can't just tell people to ignore them. The game does have potential, but it did get wasted due to bad management and a rushed release and their marketing/PR capaign definitely was too much.

 

[Delilah_]

Well, CDPR promoted the game as being the best thing since sliced bread, so what do you expect? For players to shut up and only praise the "art", but ignore the rest? I think the problem with this game for many players (those that were lucky enough to actually finish the game due to crashed and gamebreaking bugs) is that the game contains a lot of stuff that is definitely praiseworthy and what you might call art (I don't, for reasons stated above). But all this "art" gets buried under bullshit and that's just not something you can ignore. Gameplay, performance, graphics, working mechanics, quest design - these are all vital parts of what makes video games video games, so you can't just tell people to ignore them. The game does have potential, but it did get wasted due to bad management and a rushed release and their marketing/PR capaign definitely was too much.

i never said they shouldn't complain, you can't stop them anyway, but that's my opinion, and i think it's unwarranted, anything besides the old gen console scandal is unwarranted, go play VR if you want a life simulator, this is a video game, not some simulation. [...], hell i don't even know what they promised, i just bought the game without watching the trailer until Jan 2021, the hype killed the game for the players, not the other way around

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Basically, I have a phrase that comes to mind when I think of "art" in general:
"If someone creates something for anything other than "to be practical and useful," it can be regarded as art"
Little examples:
A child who draws a drawing with his finger in the sand at the beach and then proudly shows it to his mother, I can consider it as art.
A gardener who gives a special shape to a bush or create a space with different flowers (like french gardens), I can also consider it as art.
A Neanderthal man dipping his finger in the mud and drawing the deer he has just killed just to show off, for me it's also art.

So whatever the game (bad/good/inexistant gameplay), I think all could be considered as art. Whether we enjoy it or not, whether we are receptive or not, it doesn't matter, it's still "art" and for that it's all matters of tastes, opininon.
In short, in my opinion, all video games are works of art. Maybe at different levels, even those that I consider as the worse games ever.
(example : I was considering gameplay mainly, a game like RDR2 wouldn't be a work of art at all (a true nightmare for me), but it is in a lot of other ways for me)

I think that sums up rather good my point of view, so yes, Cyberpunk is a work of art anyway (whatever if I like or not the gameplay).

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

i never said they shouldn't complain, you can't stop them anyway, but that's my opinion, and i think it's unwarranted, anything besides the old gen console scandal is unwarranted, go play VR if you want a life simulator, this is a video game, not some simulation. [...], hell i don't even know what they promised, i just bought the game without watching the trailer until Jan 2021, the hype killed the game for the players, not the other way around

What are you talking about? I never said I wanted a life simulation, I said you can't just ignore the bad quest design, broken mechanics, problems with the gameplay, bugs etc. This doesn't have anything to to with us wanting "some simulation", it's about core aspects of the game not working properly or being serverly underdeveloped. And by he way, VR games are probably the least lifelike games you can find out there.

 

[-Nailes-]

The Witcher 3 had its share of issues upon release and is now praised as the greatest(or one of) game of all time. Fallout New Vegas had severe issues upon release(the most popular quest the first year was 'fnv.exe has stopped working') and yet its praised as an amazing RPG.
These issues with these games were fixed over time, FNV still has some issues though, but you wont hear that in rpg communities. So while the focus is on those issues today, its highly likely that noone will care anymore in a few years. And yes, that will depend in part to what CDPR does, but only in part.

I could write a text wall about that stuff, dont worry, I'll resist

 

[Didacgomez]

The Witcher 3 had its share of issues upon release and is now praised as the greatest(or one of) game of all time. Fallout New Vegas had severe issues upon release(the most popular quest the first year was 'fnv.exe has stopped working') and yet its praised as an amazing RPG.
These issues with these games were fixed over time, FNV still has some issues though, but you wont hear that in rpg communities. So while the focus is on those issues today, its highly likely that noone will care anymore in a few years. And yes, that will depend in part to what CDPR does, but only in part.

I could write a text wall about that stuff, dont worry, I'll resist

I have to make the embarrasing confession that:
I played Vampire Bloodlines on-release:
www.rockpapershotgun.com/amp/forever-young-the-tragedy-of-bloodlines

 

[exxxed]

Art is quite literally in the eyes of the beholder, or in this case in the experience of the player.

I've seen stuff done in videogames that could be considered art, like an amazing kill streak in Quake 3, a beautifully orchestrated maneuver with a P40 in Battlefield 1942, a harrowing experience going through Senua's Sacrifice, getting lost in Rapture beneath the waves of Bioshock's water world, contemplating the meaning of suffering and the experience of prevalence and perseverance in Dark Souls, discovering the fantastical and unnerving world of Planescape Torment alongside Morte the talking skull, putting on the HEV Suit for the first time as Gordon freeman and leaving everything behind at the beginning of Episode 2 while glancing at the distant torn city scape of City 17, contemplating immortality and the consequences of our path through life towards revenge and redemption as Raziel in Legacy of Kain or meeting Judy on the side of the lake humming the Pyramid Song leading to one of the most introspective and haunting quests I have ever experienced...

Yes videogames can be art, it's all down to the capacity of the recipient to experience such during the course of the playthrough.

If there are glaring issues that affect such experiences, it might be difficult to be overlooked on the level where the person in question gets immersed and has the ability to feel what was intended in the first place - or something totally new that is a byproduct of the experience itself, like an amazing sunset in an open world videogame with dynamic weather at the end of a particularly difficult encounter or a dramatic narrative arc.

This is the problem with Cyberpunk 2077 currently, it's individual pieces are absolutely stellar, but they don't gel together very well at the moment due to the rushed post production and launch on a less than stellar hardware capacity that affected the experience of many.

It's a real shame too, because I can see what they were going for with a lot of things, and when things work together well, it's mindblowingly awesome on so, many, levels...

In the end it's art for me, the whole thing, no piece is ever perfect nor will it ever please everyone.

 

[Bartinga2077]

"VIDEO GAMES ARE HIGHEST FORM OF ART! WHY ARE THEY ONLY JUDGED AS GAMES?"​

Because that's what they are, games. Meant to entertain. A playfield for artists to express their vision for the masses to use for their pleasure. Against a price. Their vision can be (of) anything. A real life experience, a dream, a story, an achievement, an experiment, a test, a mission, a relieve, anything. On anything, a book, theater, movie, picture frames, or in this case, a videogame.

In case of CP77, glad they chose the latter.

 

[Surma.]

Just read some reviews of Disco Elysium, they are really full of these patterns!

Currently playing it.

I've not yet established my communist utopia on Revachol using my newly found Advanced Race Theory.
For some reason Kim doesn't like me

 

[SpookyFX]

At the "Documenta 11" in 2002 the Chinese artist Feng Mengbo made an installation called "Quake4U" where he modded the game even before modding was a thing all gamers knew – even less the general public. The following text is taken from this page and translated with DeepL:

lol, well technically the US Marines were moding the original DOOM game to expand its Multiplier in the late 90s to test how VR "like" methods could be used to train soldiers for combat.

"In 1996, General Charles C. Krulak, of the U.S. Marine Corps, issued a directive to use wargames for improving Military Thinking and Decision-Making Exercises."

This was in the "mainstream" news at the time. I and many others (at least in the USA ) were making WADS (Doom mods) at that time as well. It was extremely well know at least by PC players.

But I guess I get what you are trying to say.

 

[Nadim0000]

I mean Night City is probably the most beautifully crafted city i have ever seen in any game ,but what is the point of this city if i cant interact with it?you see all these ads ,arcades ,braindance ,all the potential content and it has NOTHING to offer you cant even get a fucking haircut ,compare that with a lower budget game like Yakuza which has a much lower budget but more than 20 unique mini games and many areas and locations that you can visit ,gaming as a medium is first and foremost an interactive medium the more freedom the game gives you the better its going to be.

what made games like Deus ex ,Skyrim ,Fallout NV and DOS 2 so memorable to so many people is how their systems allow you to create your own stories which gave a sense of discovery that you wont find in any other medium ,Cdpr devs wanted to create something special ,they wanted to make an Open world rpg that is interactable ,with many choices and consequences ,with character creation freedom ,something that is an evolution of The Witcher 3 a game that will define the future of open world games ,but sadly marketing and money making took priority it kept canabalizing the game more and more till we got a skeleton of a game that we have now.

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2021

The Witcher 3 had its share of issues upon release and is now praised as the greatest(or one of) game of all time. Fallout New Vegas had severe issues upon release(the most popular quest the first year was 'fnv.exe has stopped working') and yet its praised as an amazing RPG.
These issues with these games were fixed over time, FNV still has some issues though, but you wont hear that in rpg communities. So while the focus is on those issues today, its highly likely that noone will care anymore in a few years. And yes, that will depend in part to what CDPR does, but only in part.

I could write a text wall about that stuff, dont worry, I'll resist

The thing is that Fallout NV and The Witcher 3 had strong base ,Fallout NV had a faction system ,it gave you the freedom and rewarded you for the character you wanted to create ,your choices mean something and will impact your relationships with certain factions it is an RPG ,Cyberpunk markets itself like its going to match the depth and RPG mechanics/faction systems ,but the final product is barely even comparable with most action games that has some dialogue choices

Cyberpunk in its current state has an extremely weak base and i really doubt they can ever fix it.

Compared to the witcher 3 well... quantity and quality

 

[maniak6767]

I mean Night City is probably the most beautifully crafted city i have ever seen in any game ,but what is the point of this city if i cant interact with it?you see all these ads ,arcades ,braindance ,all the potential content and it has NOTHING to offer you cant even get a fucking haircut ,compare that with a lower budget game like Yakuza which has a much lower budget but more than 20 unique mini games and many areas and locations that you can visit ,gaming as a medium is first and foremost an interactive medium the more freedom the game gives you the better its going to be.

what made games like Deus ex ,Skyrim ,Fallout NV and DOS 2 so memorable to so many people is how their systems allow you to create your own stories which gave a sense of discovery that you wont find in any other medium ,Cdpr devs wanted to create something special ,they wanted to make an Open world rpg that is interactable ,with many choices and consequences ,with character creation freedom ,something that is an evolution of The Witcher 3 a game that will define the future of open world games ,but sadly marketing and money making took priority it kept canabalizing the game more and more till we got a skeleton of a game that we have now.

Definitely we need minigames so video games will be judged as form of art. lol.


About topic: you can judge something as art only if you have some experience, knowledge about art. That's why older gamers are more eagle to do that.
Video game reviewers won't review soundtrack, because their knowledge about music is close to zero. Do you really want to hear clueless youtubers dicussing music in games? Even movie soundtracks are rarely discussed.
Same you can say about stories in video games, if someone plays only video games (not reading books or watching movies), how he can say story is good or not? For example I've seen comment that V/Johnny relationships is copiedfrom Batman game, if you don't know "Mr Jekkyll and Mr Hyde", "Ghost in the Shell", "Fight Club" etc.sadly it's this kind of copy
Same you can say about people wanting more Jackie in game. Jackie's arc is complete in game. We have full picture, there's nothing to add here.
But you won't see it, if you won't at least try to think more deeply about this character...

Most of reviewers can only say they liked/disliked story, music, graphics, they are not really intellectually capable to make more complex review. Not insulting anyone, it's fact. You can see renowned youtube movie critics, watching must see movie classic, when their channel is already very popular...

Your experience/knowledge will always determine your next experiences with art. Problem with video games, you can skip dialoges, you can skip city by fast travel, there's factor how someone will play game...rush, be patient, enjoy gameplay, not enjoy, it's way more complex than we think.

You can see that video games are not really strong form of art as whole, if game like Cyberpunk mostly references movies/books visually/storywise and game refernces often don't have any artistic form.

Just use one movie as example. Movie is about IIWW (kinda) , but if you see visual references you can perceive it as some kind of western. I think video games are still very far away from this kind of complexity...

 

[Nadim0000]

Definitely we need minigames so video games will be judged as form of art. lol.

How about next time reading what im saying and addressing my points properly i have not even used the word "art" i was talking about gaming as a medium should be more interactive ,what is the point of having an open world that you cant interact with it? thats it nothing more nothing less ,mini games is one of many ways you can make it more interactive ,i mentioned games like Skyrim ,DOS 2 and Deus ex neither of which had mini games IIRC yet for some reason you wanted to latch onto mini games.

speaking of which art is not up to you to decide its subjective ,Mario 64 was the game that convinced gabe newell that video games are art are you going to "lol" at him now?

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Humans love to complain about what could've been, should've been and would've been, it's in our nature. the same way you think about an exam and how you could've improved your mark, same way they complain about the "wasted" potential of Cyberpunk 2077, it's both useless, nothing will change, it is what it is. Instead of talking about the game, what's good. It's just infinite rage videos about bugs, bugs ,bugs ,bugs. As if bugs were never a part of video games. Truth is, they shot themselves to the foot when they set their expectations as high as people waiting for the second coming of Christ.

Yeah, people have a tendency to fixate on what is perceived as wrong about a product. This is common knowledge. As a result they tend to talk about what is perceived as wrong. This doesn't mean they are oblivious to the good parts. This is where the false premise comment comes from.

In terms of your bugs comment.... Wild guess, big video games would catch far less flak for bugs if they took a more reasonable approach to verifying working function before slapping done on their products. Instead of being content to push more of that burden on their consumers on "released" products and fixing them later.

If you advertise hundreds of perks in your game, release it and it's discovered some don't even function you are going to catch heat for it. If it's stated something runs surprisingly well and the end result runs like trash you'll catch heat for it. Receiving backlash for this doesn't mean the "good" parts of the product are being ignored. It doesn't mean expectations are unrealistic. It doesn't mean those criticizing it don't appreciate the "artistic" elements of the product. Nor does it mean people wanted a life simulator, a unicorn or any other logical fallacy we can conceivably come up with.