Vincent Van Moorlehem vs Veil

+
Well, it's a valid argument
Facts are always valid. It's also a fact, and therefore a valid argument, that with a 5 body he only needs 6 value from his ability to be worth his Provisions. Which is laughably easy to achieve even with Bronze targets. Which, in turn, makes the "but he has high Provision cost" argument pretty weak, and that's why I'm tired of seeing it.

Sure there are gold cards with veil but they kind of suck, for the most part
All of the evolving cards have Veil at stage 3, and MM also added other Veiled Golds that can easily get high value. Not to mention there are cards that can give Veil to other cards (Marlana and Fortune Teller, at least). In other words, any Gold unit can get Veil (and then be targeted by Vincent).
(Except for Immune Golds, but they can't be targeted anyway.)

---------------

I could easily get behind the suggestion that Vincent should only be able to target units with a negative status, and not Veil/Defender/Shield/Vitality/Resilience. He is very strong as he is now, there's no denying that, and it's not like Nilfgaard lacks ways to apply negative statuses.
 
Facts are always valid. It's also a fact, and therefore a valid argument, that with a 5 body he only needs 6 value from his ability to be worth his Provisions. Which is laughably easy to achieve even with Bronze targets. Which, in turn, makes the "but he has high Provision cost" argument pretty weak, and that's why I'm tired of seeing it.

It's not weak though. At all. The issue is you're not accounting for the provision limitations when deck building, if you run Vincent and use him on a 4p veil engine, you have a massive provision deficit in your deck now, when compared to your opponent. That variable is very, very important.

All of the evolving cards have Veil at stage 3, and MM also added other Veiled Golds that can easily get high value. Not to mention there are cards that can give Veil to other cards (Marlana and Fortune Teller, at least). In other words, any Gold unit can get Veil (and then be targeted by Vincent).
(Except for Immune Golds, but they can't be targeted anyway.)

Cards which add veil to other units aren't used very often - and again, you're playing right into NG's game if you're going to start trying to shut down locks, poisons and bears, oh my. Because you' the opponent have provided a target rich environment.

Additionally, outside of Harald, the evolving cards are pretty awful or require devotion, which is a mistake to run without additional support.

---------------

I could easily get behind the suggestion that Vincent should only be able to target units with a negative status, and not Veil/Defender/Shield/Vitality/Resilience. He is very strong as he is now, there's no denying that, and it's not like Nilfgaard lacks ways to apply negative statuses.

Not necessary, Vincent eats up lots of provision and baiting or trading is smart+healthy for the game. It's not just about who has the bigger numbers, it's about what it takes to get those numbers - and if you have the resources to fight after that round.

Additionally, that removes Vincent's ability to target units with shields which is kind of important vs NR.
 
if you run Vincent and use him on a 4p veil engine
If, if, if. If you do that then you only have yourself to blame; it's not the card's fault that you intentionally "waste" it.

I'm done here. And I won't be sad if Vincent does end up getting nerfed in some way.
 
If, if, if. If you do that then you only have yourself to blame; it's not the card's fault that you intentionally "waste" it.

I'm done here. And I won't be sad if Vincent does end up getting nerfed in some way.

*raises eyebrow*

Maybe you need to take some personal time to sort out whatever's eating at you?

You're being flippant and dismissive against logical and valid criticism.
If you don't like Vincent having lots of targets, then don't give him lots of targets - or at least bait him out.
 
Last edited:
It's not weak though. At all. The issue is you're not accounting for the provision limitations when deck building, if you run Vincent and use him on a 4p veil engine, you have a massive provision deficit in your deck now, when compared to your opponent. That variable is very, very important.

It IS weak. VERY. By the same logic, if I use my Oak to remove or damage anything less than legendary, I just created a "massive provision deficit" in my deck. It makes no sense. The value of a card is NOT judged based on the exchange of provisions between opponents. It's judged based on points earned vs provision cost, and it is a commonly accepted FACT that one is getting value as long as the points earned are HIGHER than provision cost, REGARDLESS of provision cost of your target. So destroying that 7-point villager "as a last resort" is NOT a terrible waste of Vince, because you still got 12 out of 11 invested.
 
It IS weak. VERY. By the same logic, if I use my Oak to remove or damage anything less than legendary, I just created a "massive provision deficit" in my deck. It makes no sense. The value of a card is NOT judged based on the exchange of provisions between opponents. It's judged based on points earned vs provision cost, and it is a commonly accepted FACT that one is getting value as long as the points earned are HIGHER than provision cost, REGARDLESS of provision cost of your target. So destroying that 7-point villager "as a last resort" is NOT a terrible waste of Vince, because you still got 12 out of 11 invested.

The provision value of a card is absolutely a massive variable.

Want a very black and white Scenario? Using Heat Wave on a bronze 4 provision card.
Now, regardless if that bronze has 1 point or 5000 points, assuming you've both played 1 card, you're now down 6 provision in your deck and a form of tall removal.

This gives your opponent information and if they have a decent knowledge of the meta and deck building, they can easily surmise what kinds of plays and their value based on what you've shown them previously.

Same thing with Vincent, if I have to use it on one of your bronze cards, that means no more Vincent and a huge provision inefficiency in my deck, if you've a decent deck, this can be exploited.

That's why Vincent isn't an issue, having more provision inefficient targets doesn't make him better nor worse if both players think things through.
Personally, I think people just want to scapegoat Vincent because NG, design wise, is inherently frustrating - but it's not one single card which is at fault; but the whole design of the faction.

They're basically designed to be as annoying as possible unless you run soldier slam or something off meta.
 
The provision value of a card is absolutely a massive variable.

Want a very black and white Scenario? Using Heat Wave on a bronze 4 provision card.
Now, regardless if that bronze has 1 point or 5000 points, assuming you've both played 1 card, you're now down 6 provision in your deck and a form of tall removal.

This gives your opponent information and if they have a decent knowledge of the meta and deck building, they can easily surmise what kinds of plays and their value based on what you've shown them previously.

Same thing with Vincent, if I have to use it on one of your bronze cards, that means no more Vincent and a huge provision inefficiency in my deck, if you've a decent deck, this can be exploited.

That's why Vincent isn't an issue, having more provision inefficient targets doesn't make him better nor worse if both players think things through.

Again, this argument is faulty. Nobody is going to trade Vincent for a 4p bronze in round 1, much less if there's just one card played. If they do, that's not an illustration that the card "isn't an issue." It just means the person is terrible at Gwent. The deficit in skill is far higher and more important here than the deficit in provisions.

If you have to use Vincent on one of the bronze cards, you're either doing it to secure the round, or you're doing it because in 3 rounds you couldn't find a better target, which is almost impossible, but if it happens, then you STILL get value. In either case, it doesn't give me any super advantage suddenly or creates some kind of gaping hole in your ranks.

Meanwhile, on the opposite end of this is Vincent nuking cards for crazy value, or insta-gibbing strategic cards like 7p mm engines or defenders, and if he misses ONE somehow, well, then there's Yenvo for the other one.
 
Again, this argument is faulty. Nobody is going to trade Vincent for a 4p bronze in round 1, much less if there's just one card played. If they do, that's not an illustration that the card "isn't an issue." It just means the person is terrible at Gwent. The deficit in skill is far higher and more important here than the deficit in provisions.

If you have to use Vincent on one of the bronze cards, you're either doing it to secure the round, or you're doing it because in 3 rounds you couldn't find a better target, which is almost impossible, but if it happens, then you STILL get value. In either case, it doesn't give me any super advantage suddenly or creates some kind of gaping hole in your ranks.

Meanwhile, on the opposite end of this is Vincent nuking cards for crazy value, or insta-gibbing strategic cards like 7p mm engines or defenders, and if he misses ONE somehow, well, then there's Yenvo for the other one.

Depends on the hand. I've totally used Vincent R1 on a bronze with veil before. Want to know why? Because the damn thing is boosted out of my 3-6 point removal options, is immune to poison and either requires being spun, destroyed or reset. Plus they only have 2 of those units and 1 just died so, while it's not ideal, it'll work if you plan ahead.

Boosting your veiled units vs NG is just a mistake. A big one, so when Vincent swings for the fences, 8/10 times, that's your misplay. Spread your boosts out, if you can - and don't over rely on veil. It's nice but it's not a "NG can't fight me now hur hur hur" status. Immunity is the NG ded now status :p
 
Facts are always valid. It's also a fact, and therefore a valid argument, that with a 5 body he only needs 6 value from his ability to be worth his Provisions. Which is laughably easy to achieve even with Bronze targets. Which, in turn, makes the "but he has high Provision cost" argument pretty weak, and that's why I'm tired of seeing it.


All of the evolving cards have Veil at stage 3, and MM also added other Veiled Golds that can easily get high value. Not to mention there are cards that can give Veil to other cards (Marlana and Fortune Teller, at least). In other words, any Gold unit can get Veil (and then be targeted by Vincent).
(Except for Immune Golds, but they can't be targeted anyway.)

---------------

I could easily get behind the suggestion that Vincent should only be able to target units with a negative status, and not Veil/Defender/Shield/Vitality/Resilience. He is very strong as he is now, there's no denying that, and it's not like Nilfgaard lacks ways to apply negative statuses.

I almost don't recognize you! Hats off to you because you're being fair, I know you love NG but VVM has some issues and as you illustrate it is not a case of provisions/power.
 
Depends on the hand. I've totally used Vincent R1 on a bronze with veil before. Want to know why? Because the damn thing is boosted out of my 3-6 point removal options, is immune to poison and either requires being spun, destroyed or reset. Plus they only have 2 of those units and 1 just died so, while it's not ideal, it'll work if you plan ahead.

Boosting your veiled units vs NG is just a mistake. A big one, so when Vincent swings for the fences, 8/10 times, that's your misplay. Spread your boosts out, if you can - and don't over rely on veil. It's nice but it's not a "NG can't fight me now hur hur hur" status. Immunity is the NG ded now status :p
Well, if it's boosted out of range, it means the opponent used more than 1 card on it already, so add up the provisions. And if they did boost it in R1, it means it's an engine, and if it's boosted above 6 already, by removing it you're getting back about 12-20 points of value depending on the length of the round, so definitely NOT waste.

And yeah, sometimes it's a mistake, other times it's bait. It doesn't matter. If I have to bait your Vincent out early by sacrificing 20 points, it doesn't mean the card is "balanced," even if I manage to win the game. Once again, just because it's not auto-win doesn't mean it's well-balanced.
 
Well, if it's boosted out of range, it means the opponent used more than 1 card on it already, so add up the provisions. And if they did boost it in R1, it means it's an engine, and if it's boosted above 6 already, by removing it you're getting back about 12-20 points of value depending on the length of the round, so definitely NOT waste.

And yeah, sometimes it's a mistake, other times it's bait. It doesn't matter. If I have to bait your Vincent out early by sacrificing 20 points, it doesn't mean the card is "balanced," even if I manage to win the game. Once again, just because it's not auto-win doesn't mean it's well-balanced.


That is exactly why you don't boost veil units if you can help it vs NG specifically. Investing into a combo you know Vincent is going to counter is kind of like saying "Hmmm it's -30c outside...what happens if I lick this metal pole?"

Well, yeah, something bad will happen lol.

Sometimes you've just no choice and those games suck, just as much as it sucks to accidentally tutor out Vincent turn 1 with Joachim and not have any targets but a spy you'd rather use Coup on. Murphy's law and due to human nature, we'll remember those times when things went so wrong over the many where things went right.

I know the 20 points is hyperbole but if you have to invest that much to bait out Vincent, that might be a deck building issue, not a balance issue.

Bleeding players of high value resources is totally normal. Last game, I had to bleed a NR player until they used Draug prematurely to win R2 - and I had to do it by sacrificing one of my 2 finisher plays for R3 (double ball). I hated doing it but it's that or quit.

Does this mean Draug is op? Probably not. What it means is Draug is a strong af card and needs to be respected as such.
That's the theme I see that's common here, people are complaining instead of looking for solutions. They're looking for easy solutions to a problem that requires planning, they have no respect for the thought process of defeating Vincent, they just want him gone.

And in this case, the solution is simple; vsing NG? Don't dump lots of boosts into a status effected unit. It's probably going to die. Be it Vincent, Yennefer's, Igni, etc. Or hell, they could be smart like I am and run Artefact Compression since the reset doesn't need the lock to go through, making it fantastic for resetting veiled units.
 
Last edited:
That is exactly why you don't boost veil units if you can help it vs NG specifically. Investing into a combo you know Vincent is going to counter is kind of like saying "Hmmm it's -30c outside...what happens if I lick this metal pole?"

Well, yeah, something bad will happen lol.

Sometimes you've just no choice and those games suck, just as much as it sucks to accidentally tutor out Vincent turn 1 with Joachim and not have any targets but a spy you'd rather use Coup on. Murphy's law and due to human nature, we'll remember those times when things went so wrong over the many where things went right.

I know the 20 points is hyperbole but if you have to invest that much to bait out Vincent, that might be a deck building issue, not a balance issue.

Bleeding players of high value resources is totally normal. Last game, I had to bleed a NR player until they used Draug prematurely to win R2 - and I had to do it by sacrificing one of my 2 finisher plays for R3 (double ball). I hated doing it but it's that or quit.

Does this mean Draug is op? Probably not. What it means is Draug is a strong af card and needs to be respected as such.
That's the theme I see that's common here, people are complaining instead of looking for solutions. They're looking for easy solutions to a problem that requires planning, they have no respect for the thought process of defeating Vincent, they just want him gone.

And in this case, the solution is simple; vsing NG? Don't dump lots of boosts into a status effected unit. It's probably going to die.
Helpful strategy tips aside, the difference between Draug and Vincent is that for 13p Draug does absolutely nothing by itself. You HAVE to spend the round setting it up. That 13p Oak will play for 7 unless you spend several moves to set it up. That 12p boar will play for seven if your opponent has 3 undamaged units on the board and you have no Dagur/GS to catch the pings at the same time. THAT's why we are not talking about those cards right now. Vincent, on the other hand, needs no setup, has no delay, and his target criteria are too broad. And Vincent isn't even the ONLY card like that in devotion NG. That's why Vincent needs to be tweaked.
 
I could easily get behind the suggestion that Vincent should only be able to target units with a negative status, and not Veil/Defender/Shield/Vitality/Resilience. He is very strong as he is now, there's no denying that, and it's not like Nilfgaard lacks ways to apply negative statuses.

I could even get behind Vincent destroying targets with a negative status and purifying targets with a positive status.
 
That is exactly why you don't boost veil units if you can help it vs NG specifically. Investing into a combo you know Vincent is going to counter is kind of like saying "Hmmm it's -30c outside...what happens if I lick this metal pole?"

Well, yeah, something bad will happen lol.

Sometimes you've just no choice and those games suck, just as much as it sucks to accidentally tutor out Vincent turn 1 with Joachim and not have any targets but a spy you'd rather use Coup on. Murphy's law and due to human nature, we'll remember those times when things went so wrong over the many where things went right.

I know the 20 points is hyperbole but if you have to invest that much to bait out Vincent, that might be a deck building issue, not a balance issue.

Bleeding players of high value resources is totally normal. Last game, I had to bleed a NR player until they used Draug prematurely to win R2 - and I had to do it by sacrificing one of my 2 finisher plays for R3 (double ball). I hated doing it but it's that or quit.

Does this mean Draug is op? Probably not. What it means is Draug is a strong af card and needs to be respected as such.
That's the theme I see that's common here, people are complaining instead of looking for solutions. They're looking for easy solutions to a problem that requires planning, they have no respect for the thought process of defeating Vincent, they just want him gone.

And in this case, the solution is simple; vsing NG? Don't dump lots of boosts into a status effected unit. It's probably going to die. Be it Vincent, Yennefer's, Igni, etc. Or hell, they could be smart like I am and run Artefact Compression since the reset doesn't need the lock to go through, making it fantastic for resetting veiled units.
If you don't boost them at least a little they'll definitely be removed some other way it's a lose-lose situation. Oh, and many veils boosts themselves, what then?
Seriously, how long can you keep this up for? You posted your "unitless" NG deck intended to be as uninteractive as possible in another thread, it's obvious this is why you think Vincent is okay since there's nothing the opponent can do about it. It's all deck vs deck bs.
 
Helpful strategy tips aside, the difference between Draug and Vincent is that for 13p Draug does absolutely nothing by itself. You HAVE to spend the round setting it up. That 13p Oak will play for 7 unless you spend several moves to set it up. That 12p boar will play for seven if your opponent has 3 undamaged units on the board and you have no Dagur/GS to catch the pings at the same time. THAT's why we are not talking about those cards right now. Vincent, on the other hand, needs no setup, has no delay, and his target criteria are too broad. And Vincent isn't even the ONLY card like that in devotion NG. That's why Vincent needs to be tweaked.

The only time that Vincent doesn't need setup though, is when you've provided the conditions for the effect to go off.
Otherwise he needs another card to do his magic.

You can replace Draug with basically any potent card, could be Ethereal+fruit tokens or anything, really. The point is, when vsing a faction that's themed around control and has a "destroy a unit with a status" card, then maybe you shouldn't dump boosts into it's target until Vincent has been played?
 
I could even get behind Vincent destroying targets with a negative status and purifying targets with a positive status.
Sure. That's way better than only affecting negative status units, and potentially even better than outright destroying positive status units in some scenarios.
 
If you don't boost them at least a little they'll definitely be removed some other way it's a lose-lose situation. Oh, and many veils boosts themselves, what then?
Seriously, how long can you keep this up for? You posted your "unitless" NG deck intended to be as uninteractive as possible in another thread, it's obvious this is why you think Vincent is okay since there's nothing the opponent can do about it. It's all deck vs deck bs.

That's your assumption and it's totally wrong.
A lot of the veil targets boost themselves one way or another to the 6+ point range. Vs NG specifically, what does this mean?

It means all removal except for expensive self contained tall removal and a circumstantial Assassination are ineffective as the veiled target just won't be killed.

The opponent has counter play in the form of "Okay, I'm vs NG, I have some veil units and some boosts, how about we don't dump my boosts onto a unit that NG can destroy or at the very least split the boosts between different units to mitigate the damage their entire deck can do, never mind Vincent".

What it seems you're asking for is to be able to play veil cards with no inherent risk vs a faction that, already has issues vs veiled units being boosted outside of NG removal range.

Vincent is absolutely a powerful card, definitely one of the best ones in the game but in no way is he such an issue that he's breaking the game, he's not Nivellen, stacking a row for Dragon's Dream to wreck, he's not the witcher threeio getting 2-3x deck thin and 9-12 points, with Roach included. His effect on the gamestate is fairly minimal overall as he's fire+forget with only one way to get him back; Assire+tutor him out again.
 
Last edited:
The only time that Vincent doesn't need setup though, is when you've provided the conditions for the effect to go off.
Otherwise he needs another card to do his magic.

You can replace Draug with basically any potent card, could be Ethereal+fruit tokens or anything, really. The point is, when vsing a faction that's themed around control and has a "destroy a unit with a status" card, then maybe you shouldn't dump boosts into it's target until Vincent has been played?

I already replaced Draug with potent cards in my previous post. "Ethereal+fruit or anything, really" is pretty funny, though.
You latched on to these boosts, but boosts are irrelevant. Round 3 Eithne, Auberon or Harald don't need boosts. They are 11p 6-body engines that I've kept in hand and deck for 3 rounds and Vincent just immediately blasts them away and there is absolutely nothing I can do to counter that. And that's not 11 for 11 he's getting. Some 7P gold engines boost THEMSELVES. And you're telling me Vincent is totally fine and my strategy should be to... what? Be "smart" and mulligan these in round 3 as soon as I see NG? I mean, that's insane.
 
I already replaced Draug with potent cards in my previous post. "Ethereal+fruit or anything, really" is pretty funny, though.
You latched on to these boosts, but boosts are irrelevant. Round 3 Eithne, Auberon or Harald don't need boosts. They are 11p 6-body engines that I've kept in hand and deck for 3 rounds and Vincent just immediately blasts them away and there is absolutely nothing I can do to counter that. And that's not 11 for 11 he's getting. Some 7P gold engines boost THEMSELVES. And you're telling me Vincent is totally fine and my strategy should be to... what? Be "smart" and mulligan these in round 3 as soon as I see NG? I mean, that's insane.

Your strategy, if you choose one of the several veil golds that boost themselves should be to bait out Vincent with a different target or accept it's just not going to get the value you want and adapt to the situation. I mean if your entire game plan hinges on 1 veil unit with an engine effect of some sort...I don't know man, that seems like a deck building problem, not a Vincent problem.

Now if Vincent was playable multiple times within a reasonable scenario...then okay, yeah, I'd agree with you. At that point Vincent would be too strong but as it sits, I don't see good or well thought through arguments for why Vincent is so broken that he needs a nerf.

What I'm literally seeing, less so from you, we're having a good discussion, is people crying over a fire and forget 1 time high provision unit that's inefficiently trading often times for a bronze unit or a gold that frankly, just doesn't really have that big of an impact on the game state. I mean the best target is basically Usurper - and to run that crap you have to run *shudders* devotion...which has far, far bigger issues than dealing with Vincent.

I don't know how people were raised here, not really my business but I was raised to look for solutions - and when I look for them, they exist within this context.

Vincent is good but he's no worse than other strong cards. I really think people just hate vsing NG and Vincent is just another drop in an ocean of tears. The straw which broke the camel's back so to speak.
 
Top Bottom